Bristol sport / shirts / Brand theft (Merged)

[RedZepperin]

Did I hear that right that he wants a blue away shirt?

It came across as a wind-up to deflect from the real issues. A bit like the "debate" on this thread at times.

[Kid in the Riot]

Bristol Sport does not need branding to achieve its aims as a coordinator and would be much better off using its current real brands when talking to potential sponsors.

A couple of sweeping statements yourself there. Why doesn't Bristol Sport need branding?

How do you know BS doesn't use its current "real" brands when talking to potential sponsors?

Isn't it a bit sloppy to have someone phone up and say "hi I represent Bristol City, Bristol Rugby, basketball etc etc"?

Much better to have someone ring up and say "Hi this is Bristol Sport" and the person on the other end knows exactly who the caller represents cus BS has been branded?

[RedZepperin]

A couple of sweeping statements yourself there. Why doesn't Bristol Sport need branding?

How do you know BS doesn't use its current "real" brands when talking to potential sponsors?

Isn't it a bit sloppy to have someone phone up and say "hi I represent Bristol City, Bristol Rugby, basketball etc etc"?

Much better to have someone ring up and say "Hi this is Bristol Sport" and the person on the other end knows exactly who the caller represents cus BS has been branded?

Crikey. At last someone actually wants to debate the issues. Thanks KitR. Go ahead and make a business case for investing in BS. How much would it take, from scratch to achieve the same level of awareness as Bristol City and Bristol Rugby. Everybody, every last lady and gent in sport in the UK knows who Bristol City and Bristol Rugby are and what they do.

 

How much woud it cost to get Bristol Sport known as a name and for what it does? Half of us on here spell its name wrong (as Bristol Sports), many could not name all the teams with which it is associated, and most misunderstand its real role - unless they've decyphered the latest mumblings of its mastermind from a field in Botswana.

[TRL]

Crikey. At last someone actually wants to debate the issues. Thanks KitR. Go ahead and make a business case for investing in BS. How much would it take, from scratch to achieve the same level of awareness as Bristol City and Bristol Rugby. Everybody, every last lady and gent in sport in the UK knows who Bristol City and Bristol Rugby are and what they do.

How much woud it cost to get Bristol Sport known as a name and for what it does? Half of us on here spell its name wrong (as Bristol Sports), many could not name all the teams with which it is associated, and most misunderstand its real role - unless they've decyphered the latest mumblings of its mastermind from a field in Botswana.

I agree with this. The branding is already in place, people know of The football and Rugby club. It is going to take a lot of money to Brand Bristol sport. And to be honest I fail to see it taking off anywhere other than locally.

If I phoned a guy in say Birmingham and said "I am trl I am phoning from Bristol sport" he will say who? If I then go on to say I am representing Bristol City or Bristol Rugby or the basketballers or even the racing driver, he will go ah yeah got you. Once I put the phone down he she will turn to their colleague and will say, just had a conversation with TLR from Bristol City/Bristol Rugby/Basketball/Motor Racing. It is about the club you are representing. They will not care about the umbrella company. Which is what Bristol Sport is.

Folks I give you General Mills. Who is that you say, never heard of him. Why haven't you heard of him? Because he isn't a general, its a company, one of the biggest it the world, but most won't have heard of them. They don't brand themselves they brand their companies. That is what should happen, they should not be branding themselves

If you are interested in general mills brands link provided.

http://www.generalmills.com/Brands.aspx

Now you may only spot a few recognisable brands here, as it is American, but the ones that are sold over here you will recognise straight away.

[Kid in the Riot]

Crikey. At last someone actually wants to debate the issues. Thanks KitR. Go ahead and make a business case for investing in BS. How much would it take, from scratch to achieve the same level of awareness as Bristol City and Bristol Rugby. Everybody, every last lady and gent in sport in the UK knows who Bristol City and Bristol Rugby are and what they do.

 

How much woud it cost to get Bristol Sport known as a name and for what it does? Half of us on here spell its name wrong (as Bristol Sports), many could not name all the teams with which it is associated, and most misunderstand its real role - unless they've decyphered the latest mumblings of its mastermind from a field in Botswana.

 

Fair comments, although every new company has to start from scratch and this one happens to be backed by a billionnaire so the upstart cost is largely irrelevant. If BS went into the Dragons Den it'd come out with all the money it asked for and more.

 

Is BS's aim to become as well known as Bristol City? BS doesn't need to be known to every man, woman and child in the country, it needs to be well known in the circles it'll be moving in: advertising, sponsorship, accounting, sales etc

 

TRL - your link above re: General Mills appears to show a web site advertising General Mills with a clear brand identity including logo? A flawed example surely?!

[TRL]

Fair comments, although every new company has to start from scratch and this one happens to be backed by a billionnaire so the upstart cost is largely irrelevant. If BS went into the Dragons Den it'd come out with all the money it asked for and more.

Is BS's aim to become as well known as Bristol City? BS doesn't need to be known to every man, woman and child in the country, it needs to be well known in the circles it'll be moving in: advertising, sponsorship, accounting, sales etc

TRL - your link above re: General Mills appears to show a web site advertising General Mills with a clear brand identity including logo? A flawed example surely?!

They have an identity as any company' but their brands is what the focus on selling, not themselves. Which is what appears to be happening with Bristol Sport. General Mills has subtle little logos on its packaging. It doesn't have massive branding of itself in bigger font all over the product it should be trying to brand.

Which seems the exact opposite to what Bristol Sport is doing. Bristol Sport is using 2 very recognisable brands in City and the Rugby club to Brand itself. Which is very odd! Maybe they should be sponsoring the kits if that is the way they are thinking.

[lanceloto]

I agree with this. The branding is already in place, people know of The football and Rugby club. It is going to take a lot of money to Brand Bristol sport. And to be honest I fail to see it taking off anywhere other than locally.

If I phoned a guy in say Birmingham and said "I am trl I am phoning from Bristol sport" he will say who? If I then go on to say I am representing Bristol City or Bristol Rugby or the basketballers or even the racing driver, he will go ah yeah got you. Once I put the phone down he she will turn to their colleague and will say, just had a conversation with TLR from Bristol City/Bristol Rugby/Basketball/Motor Racing. It is about the club you are representing. They will not care about the umbrella company. Which is what Bristol Sport is.

Folks I give you General Mills. Who is that you say, never heard of him. Why haven't you heard of him? Because he isn't a general, its a company, one of the biggest it the world, but most won't have heard of them. They don't brand themselves they brand their companies. That is what should happen, they should not be branding themselves

If you are interested in general mills brands link provided.

http://www.generalmills.com/Brands.aspx

Now you may only spot a few recognisable brands here, as it is American, but the ones that are sold over here you will recognise straight away.

 

So are you saying if you phoned up that guy in Birmingham and said you were from General Mills, he would ask you to list the products General Mills are involved with? How about if you phoned up Birmingham, Alabama? I can tell you I have heard of General Mills and I wouldn't need them explaining, I would also say that anyone General Mills is phoning would most likely know who they are also (They are very well known) The success of their products means they don't really need to plaster their name over everything they do. Alas I'd say Bristol City aren't quite at the Jolly Green Giant level of notoriety yet

 

This Guy in Birmingham deserves the sack he could be costing that business millions. 

[TRL]

So are you saying if you phoned up that guy in Birmingham and said you were from General Mills, he would ask you to list the products General Mills are involved with? How about if you phoned up Birmingham, Alabama? I can tell you I have heard of General Mills and I wouldn't need them explaining, I would also say that anyone General Mills is phoning would most likely know who they are also (They are very well known) The success of their products means they don't really need to plaster their name over everything they do. Alas I'd say Bristol City aren't quite at the Jolly Green Giant level of notoriety yet

This Guy in Birmingham deserves the sack he could be costing that business millions.

As I say most won't of heard of them. I have most people when giving this example (not talking about city in these examples haven't heard if them)

Now I would expect people in the industry General Mills are phoning up to know of them. I would not expect Bristol Sport to be known by many. So if they go touting for business, and they will as they are a unknown, then it seems a lop sided way of doing things when you already have brand names out there to use!

Just seems odd to me. You have the brand why try reinventing when trying to drum up business.

[Drew Peacock]

I fail to be convinced that Bristol City or Bristol Rugby is a brand with any significant value.  What is the competition?  It isn't another football club, if you want league football you will come to the Bristol Sport Bowl (only joking!) to watch City.  The Rugby club has more of an issue with both Bath and Gloucester providing a draw; however football (and rugby) supporters tend to follow the club they always have done, or else are seduced by the Premier League.

 

If City get into the Premier League the crowds will soar, nothing to do with the the City brand or the Bristol Sport brand, all to do with the Premier League brand which is supported and promoted with Murdoch's millions.

 

Bristol Sport I expect has advantages in selling B2B deals and negotiating with local councils etc, beyond that which the individual clubs have.

 

Some people on here haven't read their marketing text books properly.

[Manon]

I think BS should claim copyright infringement here.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28343130

[ricardob59]

I think BS should claim copyright infringement here.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28343130

Spooky

[RedZepperin]

I fail to be convinced that Bristol City or Bristol Rugby is a brand with any significant value. 

Here's an interesting link on football brands and how to value them (this company uses the royalty relief method - the cost of re-licensing the brand from a hypothetical third party).

 

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_brands_2012.pdf

 

Presumably, if anyone has time... it would be possible to value the respective brands of Bristol City and Bristol Rugby as of today. 

 

A couple of points on this:

a) If and when Bristol Sport acquires some sort of brand awareness, it will be interesting to see how it acquired it, and what consideration it gave to Bristol City and Bristol Rugby, where appropriate.  BS has already received three branding opportunities from BC: the club shop (or half of it, if we're being generous to BR), its retail website, and the bus logo.

 

b) How much will it cost Bristol Sport to acquire sufficient awareness in order to achieve its marketing objectives (as opposed to using the BC and BR brands, which already command sufficient awareness)?

 

[Drew Peacock]

Here's an interesting link on football brands and how to value them (this company uses the royalty relief method - the cost of re-licensing the brand from a hypothetical third party).

 

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_brands_2012.pdf

 

Presumably, if anyone has time... it would be possible to value the respective brands of Bristol City and Bristol Rugby as of today. 

 

A couple of points on this:

a) If and when Bristol Sport acquires some sort of brand awareness, it will be interesting to see how it acquired it, and what consideration it gave to Bristol City and Bristol Rugby, where appropriate.  BS has already received three branding opportunities from BC: the club shop (or half of it, if we're being generous to BR), its retail website, and the bus logo.

 

b) How much will it cost Bristol Sport to acquire sufficient awareness in order to achieve its marketing objectives (as opposed to using the BC and BR brands, which already command sufficient awareness)?

 

 

And I think that proves my point, neither City or the rugby club have any significant current brand value.  Neither will have either, unless they get into their respective Premier leagues, which is more likely for the rugger buggers than us.  Even if we both did, City's brand value you be extremely low.

 

Apart from a very few UK teams, the Premier league is where the value lies, not the individual teams.

[Ian M]

Here's an interesting link on football brands and how to value them (this company uses the royalty relief method - the cost of re-licensing the brand from a hypothetical third party).

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brandfinance_football_brands_2012.pdf

Presumably, if anyone has time... it would be possible to value the respective brands of Bristol City and Bristol Rugby as of today.

A couple of points on this:

a) If and when Bristol Sport acquires some sort of brand awareness, it will be interesting to see how it acquired it, and what consideration it gave to Bristol City and Bristol Rugby, where appropriate. BS has already received three branding opportunities from BC: the club shop (or half of it, if we're being generous to BR), its retail website, and the bus logo.

b) How much will it cost Bristol Sport to acquire sufficient awareness in order to achieve its marketing objectives (as opposed to using the BC and BR brands, which already command sufficient awareness)?

How sure are we that Bristol City paid for the bus? I wouldn't be surprised if that outlay went through BS's books. It could also be argued that the store and the online arm are the same thing?

[RedZepperin]

How sure are we that Bristol City paid for the bus? I wouldn't be surprised if that outlay went through BS's books. It could also be argued that the store and the online arm are the same thing?

Fair point about the bus. Maybe BS paid for the bus and decided that it would recoup its outlay through the benefits of the logo on the side of the bus. So, the consideration received by BCFC is the money paid for the bus itself.

 

How about the shop? There must have been some consideration from the previous sponsor, in some form, and quantifiable in some way. What consideration does BC receive from BS in this case? And how about the website? All interesting stuff.

[RedZepperin]

I think all of this is being done to our advantage ahead of any promotion to the Championship.

At the moment, under FFP, we are only governed by our salary expenditure. I haven't looked in detail into the difference at the next level other than we are judged on overall financial performance where we will be punished for making a loss. I believe the set up with BSL will enable us to move many of the expenses off the club's balance sheet which in theory will allow SL to spend more on the football side of the business.

Yes, it will be fascinating to see how launching the new BS brand will save BC expenses (from its P&L, not its balance sheet). Or maybe BS will boost BC's revenue by paying BC for the shop/bus/website brand presence. We'll see.

[RedZepperin]

Can you explain how the brand has been diluted? Why didn't you post this sort of stuf last season and the season before that where Adidas was plastered everywhere? where wasn't TFG or Puma diluting the BCFC brand?

OK. Here we go:

 

When the Bristol City logo stands alongside the Adidas logo, the message is twofold: Adidas, a prestigious sportswear brand, is proud to work with/sponsor Bristol City; Bristol City is sponsored by Adidas, a prestigious brand, which also sponsors Real Madrid, Man Utd, FIFA, Germany, etc.

 

When the Bristol City logo stands alongside the BS logo, what is the message...? Bristol Sport, an unknown, er...thingy [looks like a McDonalds logo...not really sure what they do] has placed a logo on a Bristol City shirt. It does not lend any prestige whatsoever. No-one outside Bristol will ever be aware of the BS logo or the brand unless BS spend a huge amount of money (in the most futile awareness campaign imaginable). In turn, Bristol City has not found a well-known sponsor (an unknown sponsor that does not inject external funds is totally pointless) and appears to be a sub-brand of an unknown entity. If you were to visit the BS website and read their recently included "About Us" section, you would see that it defines itself (among some garbed hyperbole) as [a company that] "oversees the commercial interests of its affiliated clubs". So it's not a sportswear company (and therefore shouldn't put its logo on our shirts) and we are not part of its "stable". Contrary to popular (and at times very tetchy) opinion on here, Bristol Sport is at the same level, and in the same "stable" as us.They have no right to suggest that we are subordinate to them in any way.

[exAtyeoMax]

surely when Adidas started out they weren't a 'prestigious' brand? That only comes with time and marketing. I don't see 'Bristol Sport' as a brand, it is a company that "oversees the commercial interests of its affiliated clubs" and has produced the shirt.

[TRL]

OK. Here we go:

 

When the Bristol City logo stands alongside the Adidas logo, the message is twofold: Adidas, a prestigious sportswear brand, is proud to work with/sponsor Bristol City; Bristol City is sponsored by Adidas, a prestigious brand, which also sponsors Real Madrid, Man Utd, FIFA, Germany, etc.

 

When the Bristol City logo stands alongside the BS logo, what is the message...? Bristol Sport, an unknown, er...thingy [looks like a McDonalds logo...not really sure what they do] has placed a logo on a Bristol City shirt. It does not lend any prestige whatsoever. No-one outside Bristol will ever be aware of the BS logo or the brand unless BS spend a huge amount of money (in the most futile awareness campaign imaginable). In turn, Bristol City has not found a well-known sponsor (an unknown sponsor that does not inject external funds is totally pointless) and appears to be a sub-brand of an unknown entity. If you were to visit the BS website and read their recently included "About Us" section, you would see that it defines itself (among some garbed hyperbole) as [a company that] "oversees the commercial interests of its affiliated clubs". So it's not a sportswear company (and therefore shouldn't put its logo on our shirts) and we are not part of its "stable". Contrary to popular (and at times very tetchy) opinion on here, Bristol Sport is at the same level, and in the same "stable" as us.They have no right to suggest that we are subordinate to them in any way.

And the oddest thing of the lot, why would anyone ever choose to brand themselves with  BS

 

Everyone knows what BS stands for.  I am really surprised this even got past ideas phase..

 

So we have BullShit in a vague form of female genitalia!  I wonder who got paid lots of money to come up with that branding!

[Robin1988]

Adidas is so proud to sponsor Bristol City they didn't bother delivering any of last season's training wear to the store. Non-league teams wear Adidas kits Zepperin, don't kid yourself they give two shits about us, no one else does.

[Drew Peacock]

 

 

When the Bristol City logo stands alongside the Adidas logo, the message is twofold: Adidas, a prestigious sportswear brand, is proud to work with/sponsor Bristol City; Bristol City is sponsored by Adidas, a prestigious brand, which also sponsors Real Madrid, Man Utd, FIFA, Germany, etc.

 

 

 

That is complete and utter tosh.  When  a lower league club has Adidas on the shirt it means Adidas made the shirt, much like when I wear a shirt with Gant on it.  Sales of repro shirts for us are miniscule compared to major clubs such as Man U, Real Madrid etc; they can cut a proper deal with Adidas, we can't, that's why we got pissed about by them.  Adidas couldn't give a tuppeny halfpenny cuss about working with us.

[ricardob59]

[Robin1988]

While I can very much understand the issues with 'supply'..

I am very much in agreement with RZ..

The more I've looked at the players/management in photos etc, the more I go back to the TFG days & how the whole image cheapens the look of the on/off field professionalism of the club..

Even brands like Errea, Joma etc bring more design & branding than the 'non brand/sports company' that BS are..

It will be interesting come the televised game, when Sheffield United parade in Adidas & we in our 3rd strip proudly promoting a 'non brand'

If the results on field are good then that's what matters, but I like to go yo work, looking & feeling my best..

This would be valid if Bristol Sport's first venture into making our kit hadn't been such a success. I personally haven't seen such a unanimous outpouring of good feeling towards a kit before. You and RZ are the only ones I've seen to come up with this idea that we looked far more professional with Adidas, as I said before they couldn't give a toss about us, they made some money out of BCFC and that was it. I'd bow to the strong understanding of business you and RZ must have to pass your judgements as objective complaints against Bristol Sport, but then it's not driven by that, is it, it's your respective agendas to find something to moan about.

[Lack of Action Man]

This would be valid if Bristol Sport's first venture into making our kit hadn't been such a success. I personally haven't seen such a unanimous outpouring of good feeling towards a kit before. You and RZ are the only ones I've seen to come up with this idea that we looked far more professional with Adidas, as I said before they couldn't give a toss about us, they made some money out of BCFC and that was it. I'd bow to the strong understanding of business you and RZ must have to pass your judgements as objective complaints against Bristol Sport, but then it's not driven by that, is it, it's your respective agendas to find something to moan about.

 

At the end of the day, training wear is just that - it's for training in. Therefore, it should be practical and effective - it need not be flashy and coated with go faster stripes. The kit on the other hand represents the image of the club nationwide, so naturally the design and quality has to be of a different standard - which it is. This is the nicest kit we have had in many, many seasons and much nicer than anything Adidas or Puma produced.

[ricardob59]

This would be valid if Bristol Sport's first venture into making our kit hadn't been such a success. I personally haven't seen such a unanimous outpouring of good feeling towards a kit before. You and RZ are the only ones I've seen to come up with this idea that we looked far more professional with Adidas, as I said before they couldn't give a toss about us, they made some money out of BCFC and that was it. I'd bow to the strong understanding of business you and RZ must have to pass your judgements as objective complaints against Bristol Sport, but then it's not driven by that, is it, it's your respective agendas to find something to moan about.

Very interesting response, until the last line...?

Opinions are varied & differing.. And on a forum I believe it's about debate... Not an agenda to moan...

You don't know me so please don't judge regarding my driven thoughts..

It's my view.. You have yours & valid at that...

As for outpouring of good feeling, I think there are some positive vibes & the club (and BS) have done everything to drive that..

I suppose we will never know what volume of BS shirts will sell v. Previous seasons..

[Bar BS3]

[RedZepperin]

You and RZ are the only ones I've seen to come up with this idea that we looked far more professional with Adidas, as I said before they couldn't give a toss about us, they made some money out of BCFC and that was it. I'd bow to the strong understanding of business you and RZ must have to pass your judgements as objective complaints against Bristol Sport, but then it's not driven by that, is it, it's your respective agendas to find something to moan about.

For the love of God, please at least try to understand my posts before making accusations like this. If they don't make sense to you, just ignore them.

My "agenda" as you put it is that I cannot understand what the **** that stupid BS logo is doing on our shirts, our shop and our bus. Six pages in and no-one has come up with a decent argument in favour of it.

[RedZepperin]

Have you not noticed that we have had ADIDAS producing out kits for the last few years and what good has that done us..?

None whatsoever and to boot, there have been farcical supply failures and not great kit designs.

Bristol Sports have already done us prouder than ADIDAS ever did.

There is no such thing as "Bristol Sports". Or "Lidls", or "Tescos" for that matter.

[Robin1988]

Very interesting response, until the last line...?

Opinions are varied & differing.. And on a forum I believe it's about debate... Not an agenda to moan...

You don't know me so please don't judge regarding my driven thoughts..

It's my view.. You have yours & valid at that...

As for outpouring of good feeling, I think there are some positive vibes & the club (and BS) have done everything to drive that..

I suppose we will never know what volume of BS shirts will sell v. Previous seasons..

Barring a unanimous boycott I would wager we'll sell more trainingwear than we did last season if nothing else. Having the amnesty on old shirts (which we wouldn't with a big brand) to reduce the cost from last season, the general good feeling towards it and marketing tailored specifically to BCFC I'd be shocked if it didn't sell better, too, in doing so making more revenue for the club through reduced third-party costs.

But yeah Bristol Sport is terrible.

 

My feeling on your agenda is that you present this randomly formed opinion as fact. Have you spoken to anyone outside of the club about whether Bristol City are more or less respected without Adidas, and if so what sized sample did you use? Or did you just make it up?

[RedRaw]

For the love of God, please at least try to understand my posts before making accusations like this. If they don't make sense to you, just ignore them.

My "agenda" as you put it is that I cannot understand what the **** that stupid BS logo is doing on our shirts, our shop and our bus. Six pages in and no-one has come up with a decent argument in favour of it.

It's difficult to understand your posts when after six pages of numerous posters explaining BSL to you, Dave L chipping in, jon lansdown on twitter and Steve lansdown on you tube providing the facts, you continue to ignore these facts and continue to peddle what appears to many as an agenda.

The BS logo is on our shirt because they are the manufacturer. The BS logo is on the coach as it will be a shared coach and includes all the clubs badges. The BS logo is in the shop as it will sell products for BCFC, BRC and others, it also has all the clubs badges on the sign

Nobody needs to provide an argument in favour of it......SL has made the decision to go down this route, he and others have explained its merits and it appears the majority of fans are comfortable with it