The Rooney Rule

[formerly known as ivan]

Pretty sure we have had this discussion before but seems like jason roberts, paul ince and garth crooks have raised it again.

I dont get it. If you are good enough you will get the job regardless of skin colour. It annoys the hell out of me hearing people say you must interview potential black managers! Why should anyone have to?! How do they know the number of black people who apply for jobs? How do they know how many are interviewed each time?

Think ince is forgetting he has been given more than one chance in management and continually messes up. Maybe he should accept the fact that he just isnt a good manager as opposed to being discriminated against because he is black.

Maybe if they put as much effort into learning to manage and coach as they did trying to start these stupid arguments then we might see more black managers!

Would be interested to know if Jason Roberts has ever actually applied for a job.

[JammyOne]

Our own David James' opinion: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/david-james-antiracism-groups-just-try-to-justify-existence-8207873.html 

 

"I think it is whether you are good enough. Look at Chris Hughton, he's managed three clubs and been decent, there have been others who weren't good enough."

[Port Said Red]

I don't think it's about them as individuals, they are all working in one capacity or another. I think they are more worried about the perception that black people are not considered. Yes Ince has failed a couple of times after a reasonable start but there are many Managers who crop up on the shortlist for jobs where one thinks "How do they keep getting considered?" 

Our very own SC might be thought of one example and Stuart Pearce another but they are now showing that they can learn and fit well at the right club.  it feel like that the willingness to give another chance is less prevalent for a failed black manager.

[Monkeh]

ince will only get another job in management because of the rooney rule, he is a crap manager,

Chris Powell is a decent manager and I expect him to do well huddesfield

Chris Hughton will get anohter job as he is a good manager,

 

It will be intresting to know how many black coaches with the correct badges there are,

 

As for jason roberts he is just a loud mouth

[Monkeh]

There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England, and 14 of those are black coaches

 

 

[cottsciderarmy]

It's a pointless rule. If it was passed, there would be interviews given just because they have to and surely those interviews would be awkward as the likes of Ince will know they are only getting an interview because of the rule and know they actually have little to no chance of getting the job. What happens then Ince plays the race card again saying that because he is getting no jobs but lots of interviews, it's discrimination. 

 

If you're good enough you will get jobs, hence Powell and Houghton. Unfortunately known of the others are good enough and have had realistic chances. Ince goes on about the amount of good footballers who don't stay in football, well maybe it's because they don't want to ! The likes of Ian Wright are probably earning more being a pundit than they would have if they were coaching.

[TRL]

There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England, and 14 of those are black coaches

Tells you all you need to know.

 

get off your arses and get your coaching badges, then grumble if things are still the same, otherwise stop spouting PC garbage.

[Super]

Sick to death of Moron's like Roberts bringing this up time and time again.

[formerly known as ivan]

It's a pointless rule. If it was passed, there would be interviews given just because they have to and surely those interviews would be awkward as the likes of Ince will know they are only getting an interview because of the rule and know they actually have little to no chance of getting the job. What happens then Ince plays the race card again saying that because he is getting no jobs but lots of interviews, it's discrimination.

If you're good enough you will get jobs, hence Powell and Houghton. Unfortunately known of the others are good enough and have had realistic chances. Ince goes on about the amount of good footballers who don't stay in football, well maybe it's because they don't want to ! The likes of Ian Wright are probably earning more being a pundit than they would have if they were coaching.

Isn't that the point though? They know by saying you have to interview so many black managers that if none were successful then they can play the racism card, rather than the fact that someone might just not have been good enough.

Think Ince is just trying to find a way back into a job knowing that no one would touch him. Probably doesn't even care about the Rooney Rule but knows by shouting his mouth off he will probably be considered for a job should it come up.

[HoldenBall]

Sick to death of Moron's like Roberts bringing this up time and time again.

Roberts does more to incite racism then prevent it..

[Aaron-Bcfc]

Never liked John Barnes since he said Tranmere sacked him because he was black, and that if he was white he would've had far more time in the job. Absolutely ridiculous

[Jesus]

Its an absolute load of shite.  If you're good enough, you will get the job.  Is it not racist to give someone an interview based on the fact they're black?  Its stupid.

[TheKeynshamPele]

To be fair the Rooney rule states to interview a minority candidate not just black. So surely this could be any type of minority (in football) black, Asian, female,disabled ..... Still, the best person should get the job.

[Guest]

Positive discrimination is discrimination none the less.

[TheKeynshamPele]

Positive discrimination is discrimination none the less.

too true!!!!!!!!!!!

[1960maaan]

Ince is just a self publicist , gave himself the nickname the Guvnor !!!  Even at the weekend when they were discussing Lampard (I think) first thing he said "I was playing in the Prem at 35. Will always bring the conversation back to himself.

The problem with the rule , as was mentioned in interview on Talksport a while ago.  It could lead to the same minority candidate being ferried around the country to interviews that he never has a chance with. Most Chairmen would have someone in mind before the interview stage was reached.

I do wonder if things like this rule can work against the minority candidate. As Aaron mentioned if you get Barnes playing the race card for being sacked, Chairmen may steer clear because they would worry about being able to sack a black manager, who may then call foul.  What would he have said in Mark Robbins position , or any of the managers that have done miracles to get promotion to the Prem and are then sacked when the team inevitably struggles.

The only way I can see to get more minority managers is for them to impress in lower leagues and then to be poached. Few players walk into decent jobs these days, whatever their colour. 

[Ian M]

So the next time Ince gets a job, could the leading white candidate sue the employing club for discrimination as he is not a minority candidate & clearly better than Ince who is a truly terrible manager?

[HoldenBall]

Never liked John Barnes since he said Tranmere sacked him because he was black, and that if he was white he would've had far more time in the job. Absolutely ridiculous

Same with Sol Campbell.. the problem is they get media attention from their nonsensical BS..

[zyderiup]

Never liked John Barnes since he said Tranmere sacked him because he was black, and that if he was white he would've had far more time in the job. Absolutely ridiculous

 

It was clearly the fact that he only ever had plan A and nothing else. 

Same team talk, week in-week-out....

 

"you've got to hold and give, 

but do it at the right time......."

 

Seriously though, when a manager/coach who just so happens to be black starts winning competitions consistently or his/her teams start over-performing based on squad/budget lets see if they struggle for work. Until then, we have nothing to base these claims on because there aren't any who fit that criteria.

[Phileas Fogg]

Roberts in particular annoys me. Seems to wade in on anything possible he can link back to race. As others have said, he contributes more to the issue than preventing it! Annoying man.

[WhistleHappy]

Positive discrimination is discrimination none the less.

...you only gotta look at the amount of loudmouth ginger Scottish gits in the English game to see there's no sodding racism going on here ffs. They're qualified & good enough I guess so that's that, wonder what that ex-manager TV pundit on the FL show has to say on the subject, you know the one, Liam's dad.

(psst, only joking about the Scots btw, some of my favourite and best breakfast cereals are of Scottish origin.) ---- 'that's another joke btw, before someone locks me up and throws away the key, couldn't handle prison time doing porridge with a bunch of Gas heads' - and although I have absolutely no I problem at all with hot oats products from Scotland and get on quite well with them I prefer to stick with full English for my breakfast if that's OK to say? '

Oh dear, someone's probably gonna twist my words and play some kind of pc card game with me now ... dammit I should learn to keep my stupid thoughts to myself. .

[Robbored]

How many black managers are there in other major European leagues?

Just asking......

[bcfctim]

Could not disagree with this idea more.

Positive discrimination and totally counter-productive. This rule would ensure that the colour of your skin is a factor in the application process - which is just plain wrong. All this would do is build resentment when shocking managers like Ince and Barnes are abitrarily getting interviews ahead of young up and coming managers. It's hard enough to get into as it is.

If you're good enough, like Powell, Hughton etc., you'll get a job

[TheKeynshamPele]

[Southport Red]

Is it not racist to give someone an interview based on the fact they're black?  Its stupid.

Correct.

 

Two "Wrongs" never made a "Right"

It is a meritocracy and that's how it must stay.  Same is true for female only MP shortlists

[RedM]

It would be wrong to interview a person just in include him (or her) because they are black. What if the club decide to interview the 5 best candidates and then realise there isn't a black person amongst them, can they reject the applicant as they didn't make the top 5 or have to include them? What about the person who has to be rejected to make way for this person if they decide to include, aren't they being discriminated against?

I really am fed up with all the PC stuff which has gone too far. Equal and fair yes, taking the mick, no. That goes for colour, race, religion, sexual orientation, rich, poor whatever (except Gasheads as they are fair game). I can't stand these International Women's Day and take your daughter to work stuff, this is only acceptable in my book if there are a Man's Day and take your Son too.

Grr, rant over.

[Red-Robbo]

I tell you what - there are more than a billion Chinese people. Where are all the Chinese managers in English football?!

Seriously, it's a matter of slow cultural change. When I first started watching football there were hardly any black players, now there are loads and it's an very unusual week when we play a side without black or mixed race players.

That change will and is feeding through to the number of senior and retiring pros taking coaching badges, and this will feed through to managenent before long. The change has already started.

I agree with those who say you can't artificially force an acceleration of what is an organic process which is already under way.

[LondonBristolian]

I don't see any problem with this rule being adopted whatsoever.  Nobody would be forced to give a black candidate job; just give them the opportunity to present themselves and see what they say.

 

I completely agree with the people saying this shoudln't be necessary but the bottom line is that there's a wealth of evidence that the proporition of black managers compared to the proportion of black players which shows there is a problem and black people are not being considered.

 

I think half the problem is that football seems to exempt itself from standard employment law.  As TheKeynshamPele says, most companies would - by law - have a defined interview process where anyone could see how the decision made.  Instead football acts as an old boys' network where, say, Vincent Tan decides that Russell Slade would be quite good for the Cardiff job so picks up the phone and offers it to him.  And the problem is that clubs are scared to take risks so won't gamble on new managers and tend to go for managers who fit a model of what's gone before.  Mourinho does well and lots of European managers get offered jobs in England, for example.  So, because there are no role models for successful black managers, black managers are seldom given the opportunity.  Obviously you can point to Powell and Ince but really all that they prove is that, once a black manager does get an opportunity and is perceived as a manager, other opportunites will come their way but that does nothing to fix how hard it is for black managers to get their first chance.

 

I completely agree things should be purely merocratic.  But the fact is they aren't and it's just burying heads in the sand to keep giving white managers opportunites only and pretend it's a level playing field.

[bcfctim]

I don't see any problem with this rule being adopted whatsoever. Nobody would be forced to give a black candidate job; just give them the opportunity to present themselves and see what they say.

I completely agree with the people saying this shoudln't be necessary but the bottom line is that there's a wealth of evidence that the proporition of black managers compared to the proportion of black players which shows there is a problem and black people are not being considered.

I think half the problem is that football seems to exempt itself from standard employment law. As TheKeynshamPele says, most companies would - by law - have a defined interview process where anyone could see how the decision made. Instead football acts as an old boys' network where, say, Vincent Tan decides that Russell Slade would be quite good for the Cardiff job so picks up the phone and offers it to him. And the problem is that clubs are scared to take risks so won't gamble on new managers and tend to go for managers who fit a model of what's gone before. Mourinho does well and lots of European managers get offered jobs in England, for example. So, because there are no role models for successful black managers, black managers are seldom given the opportunity. Obviously you can point to Powell and Ince but really all that they prove is that, once a black manager does get an opportunity and is perceived as a manager, other opportunites will come their way but that does nothing to fix how hard it is for black managers to get their first chance.

I completely agree things should be purely merocratic. But the fact is they aren't and it's just burying heads in the sand to keep giving white managers opportunites only and pretend it's a level playing field.

But where is this 'wealth of evidence' that black managers are being denied opportunities any more than anyone else. I agree that there is something of a jobs for the boys culture that makes it very difficult to get into football management, but that's the same for everyone. It's very difficult for any young manager to get a chance, whether they be white, black, asian whatever. I don't see it as a racial problem.

And with respect, the proportion of black players is totally irrelevant, at least for 10, 15 years until these players are retiring and looking to get into management. What is the ratio of people applying for jobs? Or getting their coaching badges? If the stat Monkeh posted above is correct, then it would suggest that the reason there aren't many black managers is that they aren't many trying to get into management.

[Fordy62]

There aren't any blind managers in the top leagues. Disgraceful.