George Ferguson (Merged many times)

[chipdawg]

Don't think anyone is claiming every migrant will come to the UK ... but having been told by our politicians on opening up on borders for the Eastern Europeans that we wouldn't get many - two million migrants on since 2000 I'm pretty sceptical of people telling us that relaxing migration rules further won't have anything other than a major impact. 

Two million people in 15 years. That's four cities the size of Bristol needing to be built to cater for migrants alone. No wonder there is a housing (health, education and infrastructure) crisis. 

The sustainable population of the UK is a fraction the size of the existing population. We need a big debate in this country not specifically about immigration but population size and the type of country we live in. For me it's about quality not quantity of life - breathing space for nature and the end of cruel and unsustainable intensive farming. I think there's an increasing number of people who are starting to think this way - albeit a little late! 

 

That's somewhat misleading M2S. There are estimated to be 2.3 million 'other' EU nationals living in the UK, of which 1.7million are of working age. There are 2.2 million UK nationals living in the EU, most of which are not of working age. There are a further 1.2 million non-EU workers in the UK- presumably with their families taking that up to somewhere in the region of 2 million. This compares with 3.3 million British-born people living elsewhere. So in pure numbers, there are actually more Brits abroad than 'foreigners' here

Ok, I have to hold my hands up and say that those statistics are questionable- I've used data sets that suit my argument and haven't taken account of current trends which show net migration, but the point is that the idea of a flood of foreigners to our shores is an overly simplistic argument and saying that we've needed "4 Bristols" to accommodate them all is a fallacy. There are more British-born people living in Australia or Spain than there are of any single foreign nationality living in the UK. Other than Poles and Indians, you could also include USA and Canada on that list

I'm not personally one for uncontrolled migration, but I don't believe we have that in the UK anyway. Giving shelter to refugees is a basic service to humanity IMO and given the demonstrable financial benefit of EU migration to this country, I don't see what the issue is at present. We're the 6th most wealthy nation on earth and while you are right that in agricultural terms we can no longer sustain ourselves, but in a global age I don't really think that's a fair measure of 'sustainability'. I don't for a second blame people for being nervous or sceptical over immigration into the UK- it's just that it's not something that lends itself to pragmatism and oversight at the minute 

Anyway, it all comes down to different opinions. We should have a quiz instead

In 2013, what was the most frequent last country of residence listed on immigration forms of people coming to the UK be official means, i.e. Entering legally for more than a holiday?

[Barrs Court Red]

France.

[chipdawg]

France.

Nope. I should state that I got this from a random government website I'd never encountered before, but the logic behind it is believable 

[Barrs Court Red]

Russia must be up there

[chipdawg]

Russia must be up there

Well it's only giving me a top 3 and they're not in there. Having looked again, there's an interesting quirk within the figures for incomers from Europe too

[foghornred]

Its a plan to make Europe Muslim, they could easily go to Saudi Arabia, Oman,Yemen or Egypt who are rich counties who have the same religion,traditions and culture but they chose Europe to spread their religion as soon it will be a Muslim country as they have more children than we do,did you know that the most common name for a boy last year in the UK was Mohamed !      

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Well it's only giving me a top 3 and they're not in there. Having looked again, there's an interesting quirk within the figures for incomers from Europe too

Germany???.

PS:- When is George holding his interview for his middle class white collar refugee family?.

 

 

[chipdawg]

Germany???.

PS:- When is George holding his interview for his middle class white collar refugee family?.

 

 

Nope!

PS Not sure, but it's on a day that doesn't end in 'y'

[RedM]

I hope George doesn't drink, infact he might have to move away from his beloved TF too. I saw on the local news earlier an interview with someone who fled from Kosovo 20 years ago saying the Muslim religion forbids people from staying in a house where alcohol is consumed. They might have to pray 5 times a day and being with alcohol is not allowed. 

This could be a stumbling block.

[chipdawg]

Your use of 'every' makes your paragraph difficult to argue with. However, I live in Italy and we have hoards of these blokes roaming the country.  As I wrote before I attend Italian classes at a 'multicutural center' and have had a chance to talk to some of them.  Every single African I spoke with is heading to the UK as quickly as he can.

Much like when the armies of Carthage sacked Rome?! 

Where abouts were these Africans from? I appreciate there is a draw for many to the UK because of colonial history, but the same would apply to France in particular. Africa is a vast continent of diverse people. I'm not disputing what you're saying btw, but my only frame of reference is what I can read and watch on the net, TV or papers. A first hand account obviously largely trumps those

[BCFC Jimmer]

 

 

Oh dear, return of the bigoted generalizations. Anyway, I am fairly certain the audio doesn't match up with the subtitles exactly so no doubt this was uploaded by some nut job hate monger.

Even so, how does a video from 2011 apply to the case of Syrian refugees? Did you watch my video? Its not really a laughing matter is it?!

 

 

[screech]

That's somewhat misleading M2S. There are estimated to be 2.3 million 'other' EU nationals living in the UK, of which 1.7million are of working age. There are 2.2 million UK nationals living in the EU, most of which are not of working age. There are a further 1.2 million non-EU workers in the UK- presumably with their families taking that up to somewhere in the region of 2 million. This compares with 3.3 million British-born people living elsewhere. So in pure numbers, there are actually more Brits abroad than 'foreigners' here

Ok, I have to hold my hands up and say that those statistics are questionable- I've used data sets that suit my argument and haven't taken account of current trends which show net migration, but the point is that the idea of a flood of foreigners to our shores is an overly simplistic argument and saying that we've needed "4 Bristols" to accommodate them all is a fallacy. There are more British-born people living in Australia or Spain than there are of any single foreign nationality living in the UK. Other than Poles and Indians, you could also include USA and Canada on that list

I'm not personally one for uncontrolled migration, but I don't believe we have that in the UK anyway. Giving shelter to refugees is a basic service to humanity IMO and given the demonstrable financial benefit of EU migration to this country, I don't see what the issue is at present. We're the 6th most wealthy nation on earth and while you are right that in agricultural terms we can no longer sustain ourselves, but in a global age I don't really think that's a fair measure of 'sustainability'. I don't for a second blame people for being nervous or sceptical over immigration into the UK- it's just that it's not something that lends itself to pragmatism and oversight at the minute 

Anyway, it all comes down to different opinions. We should have a quiz instead

In 2013, what was the most frequent last country of residence listed on immigration forms of people coming to the UK be official means, i.e. Entering legally for more than a holiday?

I think you are a getting bogged down with figures too much and are missing a bigger point.

Of course we should be able to afford it, we are supposedly a rich country and were built on immigration, most immigrants contribute and that is not a problem, the reality is we cannot afford it.

We don't have enough in the pot to look after our own or we choose not to look after our own, I'm not sure which it is, maybe its both. We are constantly being bombarded with cuts to this and that, have a housing shortage, thousands that live on the streets, more foodbanks appearing every week, school placements are at a premium, our NHS is at breaking point, our servicemen when returned from action are not given the best treatment and heavily rely on charities for care, people get pissed off being told they now have to work longer for less in their retirement. People are rightly pissed at being told how there isn't the money to be found for all of this and then Boom, it magically appears, but it's not for them, it's for others who will walk into the country. And people aren't daft, they start to ask questions like where was this money before when I needed it, if it was always there why wasn't more done to help me.

Sorry I am not againt taking in genuine refugees, I think Cameron has played it right with only accepting those from camps around the Syrian borders, but I am not about to enjoy and feel happy about Merkel et al telling me we need to accept and house more immigrants when the infrastructure is not in place and others already here are not afforded the same luxury.

[chipdawg]

The answer to yesterday's conundrum......

CHINA! Almost exclusively students coming over to study (which is quite obvious when you think about it and is actually mentioned quite widely when you look around) but not something I'd ever considered. Obviously they bring in money, but are they taking up valuable places on a 'David Beckham Studies' course that should go to British students?!

Interestingly, Spain has replaced Poland as the most common last EU country of residence, but only if you look at all people rather than just EU citizens (where it remains Poland, which is also where most EU citizens leave for). This obviously shoots down the argument that Africans are getting EU passports then coming here, but does indicate that there are people who are not originally from Spain heading here (remember this is people entering the country legally). More research required perhaps

Anyway, as I said I thought that was interesting and is only from a single resource http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc123/index.html

[marshy]

I think you are a getting bogged down with figures too much and are missing a bigger point.

Of course we should be able to afford it, we are supposedly a rich country and were built on immigration, most immigrants contribute and that is not a problem, the reality is we cannot afford it.

We don't have enough in the pot to look after our own or we choose not to look after our own, I'm not sure which it is, maybe its both. We are constantly being bombarded with cuts to this and that, have a housing shortage, thousands that live on the streets, more foodbanks appearing every week, school placements are at a premium, our NHS is at breaking point, our servicemen when returned from action are not given the best treatment and heavily rely on charities for care, people get pissed off being told they now have to work longer for less in their retirement. People are rightly pissed at being told how there isn't the money to be found for all of this and then Boom, it magically appears, but it's not for them, it's for others who will walk into the country. And people aren't daft, they start to ask questions like where was this money before when I needed it, if it was always there why wasn't more done to help me.

Sorry I am not againt taking in genuine refugees, I think Cameron has played it right with only accepting those from camps around the Syrian borders, but I am not about to enjoy and feel happy about Merkel et al telling me we need to accept and house more immigrants when the infrastructure is not in place and others already here are not afforded the same luxury.

It is indeed galling to be lectured to by Merkel when, as I understand it, the UK has contributed more in aid to the region than the rest of the EU combined.

[Kid in the Riot]

Your use of 'every' makes your paragraph difficult to argue with. However, I live in Italy and we have hoards of these blokes roaming the country.  As I wrote before I attend Italian classes at a 'multicutural center' and have had a chance to talk to some of them.  Every single African I spoke with is heading to the UK as quickly as he can.

How many of the 6.5 million Syrian refugees are "heading to the UK as quickly as they can" exactly?

[chipdawg]

I think you are a getting bogged down with figures too much and are missing a bigger point.

Of course we should be able to afford it, we are supposedly a rich country and were built on immigration, most immigrants contribute and that is not a problem, the reality is we cannot afford it.

We don't have enough in the pot to look after our own or we choose not to look after our own, I'm not sure which it is, maybe its both. We are constantly being bombarded with cuts to this and that, have a housing shortage, thousands that live on the streets, more foodbanks appearing every week, school placements are at a premium, our NHS is at breaking point, our servicemen when returned from action are not given the best treatment and heavily rely on charities for care, people get pissed off being told they now have to work longer for less in their retirement. People are rightly pissed at being told how there isn't the money to be found for all of this and then Boom, it magically appears, but it's not for them, it's for others who will walk into the country. And people aren't daft, they start to ask questions like where was this money before when I needed it, if it was always there why wasn't more done to help me.

Sorry I am not againt taking in genuine refugees, I think Cameron has played it right with only accepting those from camps around the Syrian borders, but I am not about to enjoy and feel happy about Merkel et al telling me we need to accept and house more immigrants when the infrastructure is not in place and others already here are not afforded the same luxury.

Without meaning to stray too far from the subject of the thread, there is plenty of money in 'the pot', it's just that most of the money doesn't go in 'the pot', it goes into a very limited number of people's pockets. I reject the argument that we shouldn't take refugees in because we have homeless people on the street and families relying on food banks because it is, quite frankly, a ******* disgrace that the 6th wealthiest nation on earth has employed people relying on cans of beans and loaves of bread handed out by charities. Doubly so when multinational corporations are being 'let off' millions and millions of pounds worth of tax. This country is not broken because of the immigrants who come or here or seek to come here, it's broken because public services are judged on their ability to turn a profit rather than their ability to provide a benefit to the public. Because the state has to top up the miserly wages paid by business, turning honest working people into 'benefits scroungers'. Because the interests of business and the inflation of GDP to project an outward impression of wealth and protect an arbitrary international credit score is more important than the quality of life of the inhabitants of this country

I actually agree that we shouldn't just open our borders to anyone who can get here for a variety of reasons, but when there is actually a public and political debate over whether we, as one of the wealthiest nations on earth, shouldn't be doing something- whatever the financial cost- to stop kids drowning in the Mediterranean (or any other sea or ocean for that matter) then something is seriously wrong (note: I appreciate that isn't what your saying, I've diverged onto a broader rant!)

The reason we have reached this point is not because Syrians, Libyans, Eritreans or anyone else have risked life and limb to get to Europe for a better life. It's because our governments have stood around and buried their heads in the sand as to the coming crisis and now they're panicking and blaming each other

as I said earlier, for various reasons (none of which are related to Britain being 'full' or 'we can't afford it') I don't believe we should be opening our borders to any migrant desperate enough to pay traffickers to ship them across open seas in a rubber dinghy, but similarly an attitude of "I'm alright Jack" or even "I'm not alright Jack so why should they be" just isn't acceptable to me any more

[BCFC Jimmer]

Yeah maybe the video was a bunch of bo-llo-cks, but if you think leaders from African states are not pissing themselves laughing at dumping their unemployed onto the welfare systems of Europe then you are naive.

You need to split the mass migrations into two groups: 1. Syrian refugees and 2. Illegal African immigrants.

The first group contains a proportion that are not Syrian and are not refugees.  Some estimates are that around 90% are not Syrian refugees - they are Pakistanis and Afghans and others who have dumped their IDs - I posted the video a couple of days ago.  Those that are Syrian refugees should stop in the first safe country they reach.  Do they do that? No, they do not. They move on to the countries with the widest open doors and the largest befits payments.  This is wrong.  People die along the way or are exploited by people smugglers.

The second group are acting in a criminal way, enabled by criminal gangs of people smugglers, abetted by ISIS (who now control a portion of the people smuggling trade and make money from it as well as (probably) putting their operatives in the boats and in the people wandering across Europe).   I don't think you have actually seen first hand what these groups of young aggressive African men can do to a community, because luckily for you, they aren't trampling their way through the UK, and I hope they never do for your sake. However they riot when they don't like the food they are given, they are responsible for a number of murders and horrific rapes throughout Italy, this includes btw the gang rapes of several female volunteers in the reception centers, and for some reason they seem to enjoy torturing and raping pensioners.  Sick f-u-ks.  Italian poor are being displaced out of community accommodation to make way for these illegals - there are Italian citizens so poor that they are living in tents and the immigrants have housing priority.  What an effing dereliction of duty by politically correct politicians.  I've met people effected by these animals.  I started a FB group that tracks these activities locally.  The group grew to over 1000 members in a couple of months and the group is full of stories of people being robbed by immigrants and Gypsies.  I was helping recently in a charity event and a local department tried to off-load five of these Africans as helpers - just one look into their faces told me all I needed to know - we had women with us - and I refused to accept them. A bit of hoo-hah later and they were back on the minibus and gone, much to our relief.

I know nothing about you Collis and maybe your heart is in the right place, but your head is definitely not.  This immigration situation will lead to further civil disturbance for sure, people are totally sick of the crime, the treatment of local poor, the illegality of it all. Things are kicking-off allover Europe and no offense mate but it isn't liberals who are doing their best to defend the women and children, it's men with balls.

 

 

 

Its still all isolated incidents and hysteria from you though?  An Italian colleague has family in Italy near where the migrants come in and she told me that they are annoyance but they have never had any problems.  Never heard of these groups of aggressive African men you mention... Even throughout my time in many African countries!

And its many of the liberals who are looking for alternative solutions to solving the problem!

 

 

 

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

Here's a group of Syrian war 'refugees'.  Where's the women and old people? Looks like mainly blokes to me. Note the bottles thrown at the train. Fancy putting-up a couple of these in your spare room Collis?

 

 

Looks like a bit of a rabble for sure.  Difficult to say what you or me would act like if we were in the same position though. I have been in worse states during a City game and I have never had to flee a brutal war.

Look, I understand that the exponential rate that this migration happening is not sustainable. I think you and me would actually agree on more if your views didn't always come across so extreme.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

We would agree on City being by far the greatest team ... and I'd be more than happy to have a pint with you when I get to Bristol. Politically though we're miles apart.  For example I see society through an Identitarianism perspective and politically I lean towards Nationalism as being the best system for running a country - I'm praying to Allah that Marine le Pen wins the French Presidential election.

About sounding extreme - we live in extreme times Collis.  Liberal approaches to the migrant crisis will not solve the problem.  The surge from the Middle East and Africa is too great.  Hungary and Bulgaria are going in the right direction (walls, fences, Army and citizens mobilised), Poland won't accept mass immigration (hopefully), Slovakia accepting only Christians, other countries cutting the benefits system, and thank god for the English channel.

About Africa: I've been to Rwanda, Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya a few times (Nairobi is how I see a possible future London), South Africa a few times and prior to that experience, I was a lot more conservative, but let's say that trip opened my eyes to the value of European civilisation.

*Identitarianism is a term used to refer to a European New Right movement and its sympathizers. It holds the preservation and development of ethnic and cultural identity as its central ideological principle, and criticises the state of the contemporary West... Identitarianism rests on the assumption that ethnic-cultural factors have a central role in human welfare and the functioning of society. Man is viewed as a combination of inherited and environmentally aquired traits, and the need of ethnic Europeans to defend and develop themselves as distinct peoples is emphasized. 

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Identitarianism

The front nationale have sort have blown it somewhat, father and daughter have fallen out in spectacular style and no longer even converse with each other and the party is somewhat fractured, he made some very inappropriate remarks about the holocaust and she took him to task over those remarks but he wouldn't relent.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Yep maybe you're right. The FN have practically no chance under normal circumstances, the other parties would come together to block them. However these are not normal circumstances and sadly some terrorist savage will get through eventually. Things are changing - even in Netherlands, the politicos are trying to 'out right wing' Geert Wilders.

 

 

Mind you if they can't beat that tosser Hollande they are really in trouble.

 

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

 

Yes, anyone that has been granted asylum would be free to move anywhere within the EU without restriction.

This is incorrect.  10/10 for the scare mongering attempt.

The UK and Ireland opted out of the Schengen Area membership. Migrants will be able move around 26 countries in the EU but not the UK.

 

 

 

[screech]

Sorry, that's what I meant that once they were granted asylum and eventually become citizens of the EU that they are free to travel anywhere they wish.

The last part of your paragraph I find odd in the extreme, these are refugees that have been forced to flee their home because they do not feel safe, yet when they find a safe country it somehow is not enough.

 

 

Already rectified that post, I meant to say once they had been granted asylum and have become Eu citizens. See above post.

[BCFC Jimmer]

 

Already rectified that post, I meant to say once they had been granted asylum and have become Eu citizens. See above post.

Right - but a very long process to become a citizen of the country they enter and no guarantee that they will succeed with the application.  If they do become a citizen they will probably be already settled into their country of choice with family/job and have no desire to uproot to the UK. No?

Just trying to provide some context and perspective here. I think that your posts misled some people, including @RedM

 

 

[screech]

I have no reason to mislead anybody, my point was that if they become EU citizens then they have the same rights to travel unopposed as every other Eu citizen does.

I have stated I think Cameron has done the right thing in choosing to give real refugees shelter in this country, my beef is Merkels stupidity in welcoming all without consulting any of their neighbours, and the consequence of it is, other countries will now get no choice to accept migrants they haven't asked for. Merkel ripped up the rule book to suit her countries need for migrants and to hell with everybody else, this is supposed to be a democratic body and work for the good of it's members. We will never know how many of these will become EU citizens and once they are in somewhere, it will give them the right to travel to wherever their first choice of country was. It may not be Germany.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I have no reason to mislead anybody, my point was that if they become EU citizens then they have the same rights to travel unopposed as every other Eu citizen does.

I have stated I think Cameron has done the right thing in choosing to give real refugees shelter in this country, my beef is Merkels stupidity in welcoming all without consulting any of their neighbours, and the consequence of it is, other countries will now get no choice to accept migrants they haven't asked for. Merkel ripped up the rule book to suit her countries need for migrants and to hell with everybody else, this is supposed to be a democratic body and work for the good of it's members. We will never know how many of these will become EU citizens and once they are in somewhere, it will give them the right to travel to wherever their first choice of country was. It may not be Germany.

 

Screech I fully understood what you were getting at and so I suspect did the liberals, who have yet to offer one credible solution, as usual..

The trouble is 80,000 to relieve the current crisis, then 80,000 more and so on and so forth.

I can see the argument for the current crisis, but that is not and will never be a lasting solution, there is only one solution and that is the crushing of Isis and the removal of Assad.

Otherwise our, 6 to12 months down the line there will be another at least 80,000 and what do we do then?.

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

I have no reason to mislead anybody, my point was that if they become EU citizens then they have the same rights to travel unopposed as every other Eu citizen does.

I have stated I think Cameron has done the right thing in choosing to give real refugees shelter in this country, my beef is Merkels stupidity in welcoming all without consulting any of their neighbours, and the consequence of it is, other countries will now get no choice to accept migrants they haven't asked for. Merkel ripped up the rule book to suit her countries need for migrants and to hell with everybody else, this is supposed to be a democratic body and work for the good of it's members. We  will never know how many of these will become EU citizens and once they are in somewhere, it will give them the right to travel to wherever their first choice of country was. It may not be Germany.

I can't believe @Big Brother and I 'liked' the same post! A ground breaking day. 

 

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

But that's horrific for people in those nations, especially for the working class. What have you to say about them?

I'd say that immigration doesn't cause many of the problems that working class people in Europe face.  We need to start addressing inequality at the root of the problem.

As an example, Nigel Farage likes to blame wage compression and other social problems on immigrants coming to the UK.  I would say these issues are actually caused by a country that is ultimately run to look after the large corporations and the super rich.  We can create more jobs, improve public services and have more disposable income if we can just tip the balance back towards the other way.

If this system continues the average British person is going to become even more worse off.  The main problem is, who do people blame when they become poor and miserable? Usually Johnny foreigner down the road when they should be pointing their finger at the establishment. 

 

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

Nah - Big Business and Government love immigration.

A thought experiment - remove from the UK say 3-5 million of the immigrants from the last 10 years and what do you have? Temporary chaos in some sectors (maybe - fewer taxi drivers in Rotherham), sudden glut of school places, massively reduced NHS waiting lists (and maybe a temporary shortage of medical staff), a cut in the Benefits bill (on the basis that a good proportion of that 3-5 million will be on the dole), homelessness eradicated, increase in wages in some sectors maybe leading to fewer at food banks? Keep non-European immigration below 2-3% of the population. Couple that with policies to encourage the birth rate up to 2.4.  What a lovely society that could be.

 

I don't understand your point. Its irrelevant or not if big business and the government love immigration.  I am just saying it is a misconception to blame immigrants for poverty and social problems in our country.

We need to stop using immigrants as a scapegoat and start distributing the countries wealth a bit better.  If we ever did implement a system of fairer equality and life doesn't become better for the average working man, I will start to agree with you BB.  This system we have at the moment of protecting big businesses and the rich in the hope that money will trickle down isn't working.  The money aint trickling! 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I don't understand your point. Its irrelevant or not if big business and the government love immigration.  I am just saying it is a misconception to blame immigrants for poverty and social problems in our country.

We need to stop using immigrants as a scapegoat and start distributing the countries wealth a bit better.  If we ever did implement a system of fairer equality and life doesn't become better for the average working man, I will start to agree with you BB.  This system we have at the moment of protecting big businesses and the rich in the hope that money will trickle down isn't working.  The money aint trickling! 

and we need to know their antecedents from day one and not allow them the luxury of hiding behind the mad excesses of the human rights act when they commit crime, surely that is not too much to ask?.

I would rather have 20,000 genuine refugees than any of the state sponsored criminals, drug addicts, alcoholics, tattoo collectors, young male sperm donors, young female sperm receptors, young women who want bigger tits, people who believe that living on benefits is an entitlement an entitlement that pays for designer goods, foreign holidays and foreign weddings and honeymoons.

I am aware that the above is not the norm but unfortunately is all too prevalent and any amount is far too many.

 

 

[...]

Just one thing to say:-

 

Great respect for Ferguson for saying he will take in a refugee. If he does not follow through he should b****y well resign.

Yes.

 

TFR