The Return of the Five Pillars .. Yayyyy...

[havanatopia]

Speechless.

 

[LondonBristolian]

I don't think the five pillars ever went away - they're all things the club are trying to do behind the scenes.  To be honest - dislike of management speak aside - I've always been a bit confused by what the issues are with the five pillars.  Firstly I've had enough experience of supporting a club without a plan and I'd argue the absence of one from 2008 - 2013 explains why we went from the verge of the play-offs with a hungry young tight squad to relegated with a bloated squad of poor players on expensive contracts.  So I think a plan is a good thing.

Secondly I don't really see the issue with the five pillars.  Effectively all it is is the club saying the following five things are important to them:

1. Community Engagement and promoting "health, social inclusion, participation and education" via the Community Trust.
2. Investing in the academy and youth development to bring young players through.
3. Aiming to sign young players with potential who'll increase in value and having a database of potential talent so we have good ideas for future targets in all positions.
4. Financial control and prudence
5. Building a new stadium and investing in training facilities.

Personally I have no problem with any of those.

1. I want the club to be giving something back to the community.

2. I don't think I've ever met a Bristol City fan who doesn't want the club to have a good youth system.  It's great that Bryan has become an established player and, whether or not the likes of Burns, Vyner, Reid, O'Leary, Morrell and Wollacott become first-team regulars, it's great we have players in with a chance.

3. Our recruitment has gone wrong but I'd say that's because we've got away from having a good list of potential targets, not because the plan is a bad one.

4. I know financial control splits fans who want us to be more ambitious but I don't want us to be where Bolton or Portsmouth are, or where we have been in the past.

5. Surely having decent facilities and a comparable stadium capacity to other teams in the Championship is vital if we want to compete.

As far as I can see, whilst it's not yet translated to success on the pitch, the club following the five pillars has led to a rebuilt stadium, a Category B youth system with 3 youth recruits playing for the club this season and 3 more on the bench and a thriving community trust that's doing good things in the community.  I'd be really interested to know what it is about the principles of the five pillars that makes so many of the fans find them inherently terrible. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by LondonBristolian

[Chappers]

I presume they have been re-stated. Does seem sensible really, running the club in a sustainable manner.

I'd be more concerned with the return of the Four Tops.

[Show Me The Money!]

You know whose fault these pillars are don't you? 

Lee...... 

[citywest30]

13 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don't think the five pillars ever went away - they're all things the club are trying to do behind the scenes.  To be honest - dislike of management speak aside - I've always been a bit confused by what the issues are with the five pillars.  Firstly I've had enough experience of supporting a club without a plan and I'd argue the absence of one from 2008 - 2013 explains why we went from the verge of the play-offs with a hungry young tight squad to relegated with a bloated squad of poor players on expensive contracts.  So I think a plan is a good thing.

Secondly I don't really see the issue with the five pillars.  Effectively all it is is the club saying the following five things are important to them:

1. Community Engagement and promoting "health, social inclusion, participation and education" via the Community Trust.
2. Investing in the academy and youth development to bring young players through.
3. Aiming to sign young players with potential who'll increase in value and having a database of potential talent so we have good ideas for future targets in all positions.
4. Financial control and prudence
5. Building a new stadium and investing in training facilities.

Personally I have no problem with any of those.

1. I want the club to be giving something back to the community.

2. I don't think I've ever met a Bristol City fan who doesn't want the club to have a good youth system.  It's great that Bryan has become an established player and, whether or not the likes of Burns, Vyner, Reid, O'Leary, Morrell and Wollacott become first-team regulars, it's great we have players in with a chance.

3. Our recruitment has gone wrong but I'd say that's because we've got away from having a good list of potential targets, not because the plan is a bad one.

4. I know financial control splits fans who want us to be more ambitious but I don't want us to be where Bolton or Portsmouth are, or where we have been in the past.

5. Surely having decent facilities and a comparable stadium capacity to other teams in the Championship is vital if we want to compete.

As far as I can see, whilst it's not yet translated to success on the pitch, the club following the five pillars has led to a a new stadium, a Category B youth system with 3 youth recruits playing for the club this season and 3 more on the bench and a thriving community trust that's doing good things in the community.  I'd be really interested to know what it is about the principles of the five pillars that makes so many of the fans find them inherently terrible. 

Completely agree with this. Last summer's transfer activity and performance on the pitch withstanding, since they were announced it seems our club has had a clear direction and as you stated good progress has been made in different sections of the club. Have no problem with it personally. 

[KeepUpLino]

League 1 Ambition..... We'll struggle to maintain Championship status let alone Premier league!!! This explains why no one would join us i suppose, Lansdown wouldn't pay the wages!!

 

[CotswoldRed]

Pick them up, put them down. 

Contradictory words and actions.

Have a sensible approach, but PLEASE quit with the bullsh1t bingo. Sick of it. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by CotswoldRed

[havanatopia]

36 minutes ago, Chappers said:

I presume they have been re-stated. Does seem sensible really, running the club in a sustainable manner.

I'd be more concerned with the return of the Four Tops.

Re-instated actually.. you may have meant that but there is a big difference with re-stated if not. Read the Stockhausen article on the B.Post site.

I am not, per se', against this if rather silly title 'Five Pillars' but I inserted the word 'speechless' simply because the mixed messages coming from the club just keep on coming. It is rank amateurish either by BCFC or, maybe, the media have fouled up their research which of course would not be the first time nor the last. However, someone at City needs to absolutely ensure they are consistent and ram home the need to be clear in their messaging. From the appointment of a new manager to five pillars to this that and everything in between. Just be frank and honest and clear and consistent.

And here is a thing.. would the chase for Grey have been consistent with the 5P's? And when that went barnacles and nobs up how about the the then panic chase for Gayle? If the so called 're-instatement' of them is factually correct then we must assume they were ditched some time ago enabling such a player chase to occur because my understanding of one of the 5P's is not to spend such vast sums of money. Time will tell if my interpretation is wrong on that score of course but if it is right it means we shall not be going for hefty purchases this summer and if that is the case we will be competing head on with probably 30-40% of the Championship still on parachute payments. And, if that is the case, it would take another Eddie Howe type stewardship to get us anywhere near the top two places... arghhhhh.... now the thought process behind Lee Johnson starts to come into focus.

So, in summary, 5P's, no more big buys, Lee Johnson read Eddie Howe, fingers crossed it works.

Meanwhile, London Bristolian lays it all out rather gorgeously

[CotswoldRed]

Just now, havanatopia said:

Re-instated actually.. you may have meant that but there is a big difference with re-stated if not. Read the Stockhausen article on the B.Post site.

I am not, per se', against this if rather silly title 'Five Pillars' but I inserted the word 'speechless' simply because the mixed messages coming from the club just keep on coming. It is rank amateurish either by BCFC or, maybe, the media have fouled up their research which of course would not be the first time nor the last. However, someone at City needs to absolutely ensure they are consistent and ram home the need to be clear in their messaging. From the appointment of a new manager to five pillars to this that and everything in between. Just be frank and honest and clear and consistent.

And here is a thing.. would the chase for Grey have been consistent with the 5P's? And when that went barnacles and nobs up how about the the then panic chase for Gayle? If the so called 're-instatement' of them is factually correct then we must assume they were ditched some time ago enabling such a player chase to occur because my understanding of one of the 5P's is not to spend such vast sums of money. Time will tell if my interpretation is wrong on that score of course but if it is right it means we shall not be going for hefty purchases this summer and if that is the case we will be competing head on with probably 30-40% of the Championship still on parachute payments. And, if that is the case, it would take another Eddie Howe type stewardship to get us anywhere near the top two places... arghhhhh.... now the thought process behind Lee Johnson starts to come into focus.

So, in summary, 5P's, no more big buys, Lee Johnson read Eddie Howe, fingers crossed it works.

Meanwhile, London Bristolian lays it all out rather gorgeously

Whatever their corporate nous, they are rank amateurs at communication. 

At best they must see the average fan as a bumbling simpleton waiting to be spoon-fed their crap while they display their peacock feathers in the boardroom. 

One day they'll realise people cross-reference their latest messages with earlier rhetoric. 

The latest addition to the boardroom - my God, I wouldn't want to be caught in a bar alone with him. Although I'm sure he'd tell me most of my questions were good ones. 

[Port Said Red]

I said in a previous post that I feel this is where the conflict with SC came about. I think they ripped up parts of the "5 pillars" on a temporary basis because they were taking too long to implement (in the case of the stadium) or provide results in the case of bringing kids through. Cotts was brought in to firefight the situation and was actually more effective than anyone could have thought possible.

When this season started I think they wanted to return to this process, but Cott's was clearly not happy to have his control reduced. I think the board were waiting for an opportunity to hit the reset button and he gave them the opportunity by being so obstinate in his tactics and team selections.

I am happy to have a long term plan in place, you can only firefight successfully for so long, before you have to employ other tactics.

[CotswoldRed]

Just now, Port Said Red said:

I said in a previous post that I feel this is where the conflict with SC came about. I think they ripped up parts of the "5 pillars" on a temporary basis because they were taking too long to implement (in the case of the stadium) or provide results in the case of bringing kids through. Cotts was brought in to firefight the situation and was actually more effective than anyone could have thought possible.

When this season started I think they wanted to return to this process, but Cott's was clearly not happy to have his control reduced. I think the board were waiting for an opportunity to hit the reset button and he gave them the opportunity by being so obstinate in his tactics and team selections.

I am happy to have a long term plan in place, you can only firefight successfully for so long, before you have to employ other tactics.

Unfortunately, it's only there to justify actions, rather then being an immovable principle. As per your message. 

They'll drop it again when they feel the need. 

[cidered abroad]

Firstly I completely agree with the concept of 5 Pillars.

Reference the comment about not spending large transfer fees. It is allowed to spend any amount from £0 to £plenty, so long as there is a realistic or reasonable chance that there will be a profit on the deal in the future. For example Grey is already worth more to Burnley than they paid because he has continued scoring goals / could also help them to go back up again.

Kodjia is also likely to command a larger fee now than the purchase price.

What we should not be doing is spending £millions, example Trundle, and getting zero return eighteen months later.

Surely this is just common sense? Would you pay £200,000 for a house, knowing that the sale price in two years will be £100,000?

Of course not.

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

Unfortunately, it's only there to justify actions, rather then being an immovable principle. As per your message. 

They'll drop it again when they feel the need. 

I am not so sure CR, the return of Ashton in a more permanent position suggests they are serious in their intent. As regards to my take on things above, I think they are unable to be too critical of SC, because he had such success it would upset fans even more than saying nothing.

[CotswoldRed]

4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I am not so sure CR, the return of Ashton in a more permanent position suggests they are serious in their intent. As regards to my take on things above, I think they are unable to be too critical of SC, because he had such success it would upset fans even more than saying nothing.

How does this fit with SL's ambition to reach the Prem from sometime starting end of next season then?

Sustainability and a push for the Prem in the near future are at 2 ends of the logical scale. 

I have no issue with a sensible approach. I have an issue with contradictory messages and actions. This breeds distrust and animosity. All within an atmosphere of corporate gibberish. 

They don't seem to understand the DNA of football fans at all. 

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by CotswoldRed

[Port Said Red]

4 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

How does this fit with SL's ambition to reach the Prem from sometime starting end of next season then?

Sustainability and a push for the Prem in the near future are at 2 ends of the logical scale. 

I have no issue with a sensible approach. I have an issue with contradictory messages and actions. This breeds distrust and animosity. All within an atmosphere of corporate gibberish. 

They don't seem to understand the DNA of football fans at all. 

 

Leicester City are top of the Premiership with a team that cost them £22.5m to put together, they have tried to buy success in the past and got themselves into lots of debt, but they must be getting back to a sustainable financial setting by now. I realise that their position is a rare, but teams like Swansea and Southampton had to build themselves in a similar way. I think it can be done, they may have to revise their idea of what they will have to pay out to get the return they want, but that will be their decision.

[CotswoldRed]

Just now, Port Said Red said:

Leicester City are top of the Premiership with a team that cost them £22.5m to put together, they have tried to buy success in the past and got themselves into lots of debt, but they must be getting back to a sustainable financial setting by now. I realise that their position is a rare, but teams like Swansea and Southampton had to build themselves in a similar way. I think it can be done, they may have to revise their idea of what they will have to pay out to get the return they want, but that will be their decision.

I agree it can be done and I'd like us to do it the same way if possible. 

 

[Webzcas]

58 minutes ago, 'keepuplino' said:

League 1 Ambition..... We'll struggle to maintain Championship status let alone Premier league!!! This explains why no one would join us i suppose, Lansdown wouldn't pay the wages!!

 

Disagree. Just because our owner on paper is worth £1bn or more, does not mean we should not try and sort out the club's financial affairs.

We have a cracking ground being near finished. We are ambitious but yet we are not willing to do a Portsmouth and stack everything on black.

[Unan]

These pillars suit a average League 1 side not a Championship team who's ambition is the Premiership.

[exAtyeoMax]

5 minutes ago, Griffin said:

These pillars suit a average League 1 side not a Championship team who's ambition is the Premiership.

I don't believe that at all. You need a stable infrastructure from which to build. I'm sure the 5 pillars will evolve as we become more successful, after all the stadium will be built and the training facilities will have been put in place.

[slartibartfast]

2 hours ago, Chappers said:

I presume they have been re-stated. Does seem sensible really, running the club in a sustainable manner.

I'd be more concerned with the return of the Four Tops.

It's the return of Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch tha I worry about !

 

(we've started with Titch )

[Port Said Red]

11 minutes ago, Griffin said:

These pillars suit a average League 1 side not a Championship team who's ambition is the Premiership.

I worked in the Casino industry for 15 years and I can tell you that just throwing more money at a problem is not a recipe for success. People cite Pompey as an example of getting short term success at a long term price, but there are many more, some had a bit of success for longer, but all are struggling now. Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn Rovers, and so on.

I am sure there are people out there that would swap an F.A. Cup win or a spell in the Premier league for the long term life of the club, but I am not one of them.

[bs3]

The one thing I fundamentally disagree with is the policy of only signing under 24 year old players.

It's a ridiculous policy, there is nothing wrong in the signing players at any age if they are going to improve your team .

Some of our best signings have been in there twilight of their career.

Look at Wilbs and Wade and the contribution they have made to the team and club.

[LondonBristolian]

19 minutes ago, Griffin said:

These pillars suit a average League 1 side not a Championship team who's ambition is the Premiership.

I completely disagree. I can see no reason why community engagement, good facilities and stadium, youth development, financial sustainability and buying players who will appreciate in value are League One specific concepts and am genuinely baffled as to who anyone would think they were. I'd be really interested if you elaborated on this as, on the face of it, your post makes no sense whatsoever. 

[Port Said Red]

8 minutes ago, bs3 said:

The one thing I fundamentally disagree with is the policy of only signing under 24 year old players.

It's a ridiculous policy, there is nothing wrong in the signing players at any age if they are going to improve your team .

Some of our best signings have been in there twilight of their career.

Look at Wilbs and Wade and the contribution they have made to the team and club.

I am pretty sure (although I can't point to specific quotes) that SL has always said, that if the right player becomes available that falls outside that rule that they would still pursue that player.

[Antman]

1 hour ago, havanatopia said:

Re-instated actually.. you may have meant that but there is a big difference with re-stated if not. Read the Stockhausen article on the B.Post site.

I am not, per se', against this if rather silly title 'Five Pillars' but I inserted the word 'speechless' simply because the mixed messages coming from the club just keep on coming. It is rank amateurish either by BCFC or, maybe, the media have fouled up their research which of course would not be the first time nor the last. However, someone at City needs to absolutely ensure they are consistent and ram home the need to be clear in their messaging. From the appointment of a new manager to five pillars to this that and everything in between. Just be frank and honest and clear and consistent.

And here is a thing.. would the chase for Grey have been consistent with the 5P's? And when that went barnacles and nobs up how about the the then panic chase for Gayle? If the so called 're-instatement' of them is factually correct then we must assume they were ditched some time ago enabling such a player chase to occur because my understanding of one of the 5P's is not to spend such vast sums of money. Time will tell if my interpretation is wrong on that score of course but if it is right it means we shall not be going for hefty purchases this summer and if that is the case we will be competing head on with probably 30-40% of the Championship still on parachute payments. And, if that is the case, it would take another Eddie Howe type stewardship to get us anywhere near the top two places... arghhhhh.... now the thought process behind Lee Johnson starts to come into focus.

So, in summary, 5P's, no more big buys, Lee Johnson read Eddie Howe, fingers crossed it works.

Meanwhile, London Bristolian lays it all out rather gorgeously

SL has been this inconsistent over a very long period. The crazy transfer policy that brought in the likes of Thorpe and Akinbiyi was under his control, (SL was finance director) when they didn't work out, we saw exactly the same approach - lock everything down and pull in your horns.

Its a terribly approach to business management that is a very effective way of racking up debt (£90 million now in total? some one can check the books and correct me) it also only serves to utterly destroy the fans confidence and given that he is intent on building this whole Bristol Sport ethos, IMO it's a dumbass way of running the show.

I can wholly accept the principles of the '5 pillars', in an age when the hugely successful clubs only exist in a distorted bubble, where financial probity is out the window and their survival is dependant on massive benefactors (although maybe we should note that John Henry, the Liverpool owners wealth is equal to SL) to strike out and try and build a sustainable model is laudable, but...

You have to accept that you are competing with the likes of Watford and a host of parachute payments for clubs who have visited the Premier League and that means that realistically you will struggle, unless you hit the freak wave and do what we did last year.

I genuinely believe last season was largely a happy accident - the seventh wave - that Cotterill was lucky enough to ride on, I'm not convinced how much control he had over events, and that was shown this season.

The PR surrounding this club is laughable -the whole billy big bollocks approach to appointing the likes of Mark Ashton and the 'Team' is pretty meaningless if the 5 Pillars threshold is set so low we realistically will always remain a league 1 team.

There is an argument that maybe SL ought to give it a go, a proper go and try and get up to the Prem, but that would require strategic, clever and sustained investment at the right moment and I'm not sure that he is capable of that or actually that football is the sport to be trying it !! maybe thats his plan - the rugby is more of a target for him.

LJ's appointment is rather like those helium balloons the day after the party - they float around at knee level slowly dropping to the floor, still pretty, but somehow depressingly downbeat.

I cannot accept that a moderately successful lower league manager, and forget the hype, thats all he is, however eloquent, is the answer to our plan right now.

SL likes his cronies - just look at the board - he thought he had a crony in SC, but it bit him on the backside in the long run - how he keeps the fanbase onside from here on in will be interesting.

 

 

[bs3]

24 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I worked in the Casino industry for 15 years and I can tell you that just throwing more money at a problem is not a recipe for success. People cite Pompey as an example of getting short term success at a long term price, but there are many more, some had a bit of success for longer, but all are struggling now. Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn Rovers, and so on.

I am sure there are people out there that would swap an F.A. Cup win or a spell in the Premier league for the long term life of the club, but I am not one of them.

Wigan ,Bolton and Blackburn have all had success over the last 20 years that we can only dream and they will be back in the prem before we will.

The same goes for Leeds , Portsmouth and others,

Clubs will go through go through good times and bad but for Bristol City a good time is the odd couple of seasons in the championship while clubs no bigger or greater and sometimes smaller than ours , are winning cups ,playing in Europe.

There is no doubt we are the biggest under achievers' in the country.

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by bs3

[bs3]

5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I am pretty sure (although I can't point to specific quotes) that SL has always said, that if the right player becomes available that falls outside that rule that they would still pursue that player.

But you are publicly stating that you only want to buy players under 24, if the right player comes along we will break our on policy.

More confused thinking from the owner and board.

Edited February 8, 2016 by bs3

[Port Said Red]

4 minutes ago, bs3 said:

Wigan ,Bolton and Blackburn have all had success over the last 20 years that we can only dream and they will be back in the prem before we will.

The same goes for Leeds , Portsmouth and others,

Clubs will go through go times and bad but for Bristol City a good time is the odd couple of seasons in the championship while clubs no bigger or greater and sometimes smaller than ours , are winning cups ,playing in Europe.

There is no doubt we are the biggest under achievers' in the country.

 

Remind me how much Bolton owe? Do you think they will be able to right that ship anytime soon? Portsmouth really? I might be wrong, but as things stand they look terminal cases......

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, bs3 said:

But you are publicly stating that you only want to buy players under 24, if the right player comes along we will break our on policy.

More confused thinking from the owner and board.

Not really, their stated aim is to try and build a team within that structure. However if a key player that could complete the team became available, a 28 year old striker for example, they would look at that situation on an individual basis. The problem would surely come if you were to stick to a policy so rigidly that it was to the detriment of the club.

[chipdawg]

People seem to be more opposed to the abstract concept of the the 5 pillars than what they actually entail. Other than the only signing players under 24 pillar- which I think works as long as your allowed to break it- I really don't see how anyone could object. And as others have said, if the right player comes along over 24 we'll go for them, I just think that should be expressed in the statement. There needs to be pragmatism and there needs to be experienced heads to guide all these whippersnappers we want to sign