I'm a very patient man.....

[Harry]

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

Totally agree.

PS:- Our man Yannis Salibur scored again tonight.

 

[ZiderEyed]

Couldn't agree more, another reasoned and well thought out post Harry, good on you lad.

[Fordy62]

31 minutes ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

I was only wondering today what you'd make of all this Harry, I think you sensed it. 

Youre completely right about how getting rid of LJ won't have any affect on the long term plan, but sadly LJ's relationship with SL is what will keep him in the job. 

You should never mix business with pleasure...

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I was only wondering today what you'd make of all this Harry, I think you sensed it. 

Youre completely right about how getting rid of LJ won't have any affect on the long term plan, but sadly LJ's relationship with SL is what will keep him in the job. 

You should never mix business with pleasure...

Said exactly the same thing about appointing "friends" in another thread. Bad practice and makes change all the more painful for both parties. But change is what we desperately need.

[GrahamC]

47 minutes ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

Spot on, mate.

Came to a similar conclusion a couple of games ago. 

He won't turn this round and in my opinion SL is just prolonging the inevitable if he doesn't act this week.

The new guy also needs time to keep us up and every passing defeat makes that harder, though I do believe that with what we have at our disposal in terms of a squad, we are better equipped to do so than we were last year.

[iamalagerdrinker]

Brilliant review and agree 100%

[Thatwasclose]

Great post, 

i must admit I didn't know much about him when he was appointed so naturally I gave him a chance/open mind

initially performances were good and I really believed we were on to something but raised my eyebrows when he started making comments about kodjia having the brain of an 18yr old tactically, that to me raised red flags as I believe managers should always deal with players in house and not in the press. Kodjia later went for a record fee so what does that say about LJs judgement??

then I look at players let go... Luke A was not the best player but to me was a decent squad member who was a threat going forward.. he is having a good spell at Leeds, should never have been sold. Agard offered a different threat to what we had and again should have never been sold. These two players should still be part of the squad. Kodjia fee was too good to turn down so I can't blame LJ for him leaving but I do blame him for the other two, bad calls.

as far as performances the games since November have been dull! I bought additional tickets for my family for the game against Blackburn and that turned out to be a snoozer with a goal at the end and since then it's been the same song

i want LJ gone because the games are now boring to watch, forget tactics, we don't seem to have any motivation at all! Im afraid the only thing that will turn this around is a change of management that will bring a new approach because whatever LJ is doing is not working 

 

 

 

 

 

[IAmNick]

Great post Harry but I wish people would stop quoting these massive walls of text... I think we can probably guess what you're responding to

[Hampshire Red]

As with so many good or great posts this simply missss the point!! What is your proposed solution?

If you posted this and then said the board should ask SL to sanction getting Klopp to become our coach then I would discredit your post accordingly.

So, please just add one little line to your eloquently word post, namely " my suggestion is we appoint xxx today". Then it becomes a good post and not yet another complaint.

And  noone needs to worry about SL doing the right thing. Do you really believe he grew his mega business without making changes to his organisation of people he liked?! Really? 

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

25 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

As with so many good or great posts this simply missss the point!! What is your proposed solution?

If you posted this and then said the board should ask SL to sanction getting Klopp to become our coach then I would discredit your post accordingly.

So, please just add one little line to your eloquently word post, namely " my suggestion is we appoint xxx today". Then it becomes a good post and not yet another complaint.

And  noone needs to worry about SL doing the right thing. Do you really believe he grew his mega business without making changes to his organisation of people he liked?! Really? 

 

 

Tbf HR none of us can answer that part

We don't know who's available , gettable , who would apply etc

We also arnt able to get an 'inside take' within football on applicants

I am now , personally convinced , the removal LJ alone would have a positive effect , whoever took charge temporarily

[samo II]

Excellent post, and 100% agree.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

Said exactly the same thing about appointing "friends" in another thread. Bad practice and makes change all the more painful for both parties. But change is what we desperately need.

Tinnion - friend - sacked

Millen - friend - sacked

GJ - friend - sacked 

Colin Sextone - friend - sacked

I could continue  

If LJ or anyone thinks SL is not willing to pull the trigger they are very badly mistaken. 

[Phileas Fogg]

Won't quote it as it's a very long post but an excellent analysis. 

Even I, as one of the few remaining LJ 'in' people on this forum found myself begrudgingly agreeing with it.

For me, I think we should give him until the end of Jan but he HAS to get wins in that time. 

I hope this means you'll be posting more regularly now Harry, the forum is a worse place without your posts.

[bearded_red]

Good post Harry, wish you posted more mate.

[Judda]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

I'm not a great reader...

Could you summarise this post in 2 lines?

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

1 minute ago, Judda said:

I'm not a great reader...

Could you summarise this post in 2 lines?

LJ, your shite. Jog on.

[cityexile]

With sadness, have to agree.

Other than the very small group of muppets who seem to take pleasure in being proved right, I am sure I am with the 99% who wanted LJ, or indeed any manager of our club, to succeed.

Sadly, in football, a team just sometimes gets in a rut, and it seems impossible to break out of it. It is where we are now. Yes, I can blame players, the odd bit of bad luck, etc etc, but I have to believe this group of players can achieve more. We are failing to build a team that maximises the sum of its parts, in the way that so many other teams seem able to do. Might be unfair, but sometimes when in a rut it just needs something to spark a sense of belief, of excitement. LJ has been backed, more than most of the teams around us, and he seems uncertain what to do to change our fortunes.

I take no pleasure in it at all, but 10 defeats in 11 in damning. His number one job is as coach. If time has not run out, it is very close. I would change now.

[cidered abroad]

The change is necessary for all the reasons stated above. It must be done without any more delay.

[Guest]

I won't quote @Harry but one thing stands out to me which I find difficult to get my head around. 

You say we've (with exception) bought for the future and accept [i agree] supporters place too much expectation on them in the current season. 

Take those players aside then and recall LJ arrived with Tomlin here. So what experience has he had added... GON. Absolutely nothing more besides the three jan signings who've had 1 league game. 

This time last year we were in a worse position (albeit not form). 

You seem to say LJ has all the pieces to achieve more but actually the only experienced piece he has added (and we should not expect more from - your comment on the young players) is GON.  

I just find this a bit confused. Not least because you praise MA and DT for finding players who LJ should not expect too much from. Well if we were fodder last year, and for current season he's been given just GON in addition for immediate impact, what did you expect?! 

[Xiled]

It's very reminiscent of Brian Tinnion's time in charge of the first team.  Most of us wanted him to succeed but unfortunately that doesn't make a jot of difference when the team is in an established, losing cycle.

You are absolutely right @Harryto look at the early season results again.  I remember either Leeds or Norwich fans singing something like "how the hell are you fifth place?"  And I was asking the same question myself.  We had the points but we didn't deserve them all.

Even last season could be explained as a reactionary bounce after Cotterill's petulance.  And also that Pemberton could clearly see a formation that the players could work with and would get us results.  Lee Johnson took on Pemberton's set-up and changed very little (compared to this season).  I'll accept that this is a clever piece of hindsight (as I wasn't saying it at the time) but that doesn't mean it wasn't the reality.

Lee Johnson talks a very good game.  I really like the bloke.  But the changes of formation are wasting the obvious talent that we have.  This is potentially the strongest, most skillful and most expensive team the supporters of Bristol City have ever seen.  It's now time for a manager who can realise that potential.

[Judda]

36 minutes ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

LJ, your shite. Jog on.

Ta

[Davefevs]

Excellent post @Harry, seen you post a few things recently having been very quiet.  Wondered if you were building upto something? Your post a year ago about LJ and what he'd done with limited resources at Oldham and Barnsley and in terms of bringing through talent was a post that stuck out to me, especially with me being a big Cotts fan....was gutted when he was sacked.  It had a lot going for it.  For me his appointment came a year (maybe more) too early in terms if experience, but we weren't in a position to be choosy.  There isn't any doubting that he made an excellent impression last season and the start of this.  I was with @Olé re performances not being in sync with points total, but I put it down to what I thought was superior fitness, grinding teams down. If so, then what has happened to our fitness?  It appears I was a bit naive, blinkered maybe.

Reading was the turning point for me.  Not to sack him, but to open my eyes and challenge what I was seeing.  It was less about the result, in fact my challenge started ahead of the game with the announcement of firstly Matthews - I could only assume they;d put the wrong name in the line-up (like when they named `Bobby Reid twice), and they meant Moore instead.  Then I find out Moore is going in loan and not even on the bench.  Will do him good, but the timing was awful.  Imagine Kelly having to come on and us getting whooped and scarred for life.  Vyner at least had MKD on his cv before Murphy gave him a nightmare home debut to remember.

Anyway, starting to ramble.  Guess what I'm saying us that the manager who I could still sit and listen to for hours has started to be illogical and changing his principles.  'Tis a shame.

The squad is i think a very capable one, and if SL dies pull the plug, someone else will come in with better than they ought to expect for a team just above the drop-zone.

42 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Just thinking maybe Lansdown is waiting for the transfer window to close before possibly sacking LJ. 1. To see if Johnson can turn it around with new recruits. And 2. So if he decides to sack LJ, then the new head coach will be forced to work with the players we already have, that were brought in based on our current model. Great post btw.

.

A gamble whichever way you look at it, but my final sentence above your quote has an element of your thinking in it too.

[Superjack]

Great OP.

Absolutely agree regarding the "only losing by one goal" thing. Been thinking this for a while. If we were getting hammered every week you could say that the players just aren't good enough. Constantly losing by a narrow margin, particularly after leading late on, tells a rather different story.

[havanatopia]

4 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I was only wondering today what you'd make of all this Harry, I think you sensed it. 

Youre completely right about how getting rid of LJ won't have any affect on the long term plan, but sadly LJ's relationship with SL is what will keep him in the job. 

You should never mix business with pleasure...

It will keep him in the job longer than most others, I agree, and has already done so. But wielding the axe for the greater good is most definitely on SL's desk right now Fordy. It may still be in the pending tray but its ready to go.

3 hours ago, 29AR said:

Tinnion - friend - sacked

Millen - friend - sacked

GJ - friend - sacked 

Colin Sextone - friend - sacked

I could continue  

If LJ or anyone thinks SL is not willing to pull the trigger they are very badly mistaken. 

Does not make for happy reading does it. As I mentioned on another thread the only manager in recent times not wholly endorsed by SL was Cotterill who, we are led to believe, was a Keith Dawe choice. Many did not want him, me included, but what a success he turned out to be. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Harry. I was, like many of us, wholly underwhelmend, deflated even, when LJ was appointed. Then we got behind him. It definitely felt a job too soon for him even then which has been clearly borne out now. 

I am beginning to detest this merry go round of managers. City are fast gaining a reputation for hiring and firing but it is brought on by the poor decisions and poor choices. No hiding away from it and no point delaying the inevitable now in my opinion. I like to stick with our managers but I firmly believe, as Harry says, the time has probably come to pass the baton back to John Pemberton if only for the sake of Championship survival. Everything else continues the same. Football is and always was a results business. Sentiment cannot come into play when we have experienced the equal worst record, possibly soon to be worst record, in our history. Listen to how bad that sounds.

[Gert Mare]

Clubs are hiring and firing all the time. This isn't exclusive to City. We could have given LJ more time if results were indifferent. Unfortunately he results are abysmal. Let's put aside the fact that we have "lost by the odd goal". We have literally thrown games away from winning positions.

Love Harry's patience, and like what he said about being in denial. I think a lot of fans have been in denial because the plan seemed to make so much sense and was sold to us very well. The reality is that it is just a pipe dream. If there was a master plan do you really think Bristol City would be at the forefront of innovative ideas given their track record?

I think the truth is more about SL wanting someone who will carry out his plan as instructed without kicking back. LJ was happy to do that and has been afforded all the protection possible plus insanely given a contract extension for no apparent reason.

I saw the writing on the wall a long time back and have been calling out the propaganda all the way along. Thankfully even the most reasoned of posters are finally waking up and smelling the coffee. It is time for change and that time is now. We cannot afford to wait any longer.

 

[cityloyal473]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

I've posted somewhere else: our early season wins masked a lot of deficiencies.  We've been shapeless and disjointed all season. I'll also add that it is my belief that Pemberton saved us last season not Johnson.  And since Johnson has bedded in (start of this season) and started to pick 'his' team and adopt 'his' tactics we've gone backwards.

Where is the improvement in player performance and technique that Johnson as head coach should bring?  I've seen nothing.  We've gone backwards if anything.  Player confidence is shot to pieces.  A head coach should be able to coach that out of them - make them believe in themselves - but can you really imagine Johnson inspiring a team/the dressing room? I cant. 

Others on here wont believe this but, I actually liked him as a player and like him as a person - I genuinely do.  I'm no LJ hater - just someone who genuinely loves the club.  Is Johnson the right man for this club - is he going to take us to the next level?  Not in a month of Sundays.  Cut our losses now.

[cityloyal473]

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

I am now , personally convinced , the removal LJ alone would have a positive effect , whoever took charge temporarily

Excellent point.

[Snufflelufagus]

We are going to run out of Internet if everyone keeps requoting the original post!.

[Jacki]

Great post Harry and hard to disagree with any of that. 

I've been behind LJ until very recently but these last few games have made me see that that support has been futile. We've conceded late winners in 5 games in a row now. That's not a blip. 

The players looked completely broken yesterday when Cardiff's third went in. The sad truth is that a change needs making now before this gets any worse.