I'm a very patient man.....

[CotswoldRed]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

No I've just grown a beard reading that 

[gas8er]

9 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

As with so many good or great posts this simply missss the point!! What is your proposed solution?

If you posted this and then said the board should ask SL to sanction getting Klopp to become our coach then I would discredit your post accordingly.

So, please just add one little line to your eloquently word post, namely " my suggestion is we appoint xxx today". Then it becomes a good post and not yet another complaint.

And  noone needs to worry about SL doing the right thing. Do you really believe he grew his mega business without making changes to his organisation of people he liked?! Really? 

 

 

Why would the poster have to suggest a replacement in orde to qualify for a good post not a moan, surely that the boards job?

Pardew in apparently, hope this meets your qualifying criteria.

[Gert Mare]

4 hours ago, cityloyal473 said:

I've posted somewhere else: our early season wins masked a lot of deficiencies.  We've been shapeless and disjointed all season. I'll also add that it is my belief that Pemberton saved us last season not Johnson.  And since Johnson has bedded in (start of this season) and started to pick 'his' team and adopt 'his' tactics we've gone backwards.

Where is the improvement in player performance and technique that Johnson as head coach should bring?  I've seen nothing.  We've gone backwards if anything.  Player confidence is shot to pieces.  A head coach should be able to coach that out of them - make them believe in themselves - but can you really imagine Johnson inspiring a team/the dressing room? I cant. 

Others on here wont believe this but, I actually liked him as a player and like him as a person - I genuinely do.  I'm no LJ hater - just someone who genuinely loves the club.  Is Johnson the right man for this club - is he going to take us to the next level?  Not in a month of Sundays.  Cut our losses now.

Exactly how I see it. Good post.

[NickJ]

Harry, you should have just said what I did the day after LJ was appointed:

Post 13.

[Red Rum]

10 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

As with so many good or great posts this simply missss the point!! What is your proposed solution?

If you posted this and then said the board should ask SL to sanction getting Klopp to become our coach then I would discredit your post accordingly.

So, please just add one little line to your eloquently word post, namely " my suggestion is we appoint xxx today". Then it becomes a good post and not yet another complaint.

And  noone needs to worry about SL doing the right thing. Do you really believe he grew his mega business without making changes to his organisation of people he liked?! Really? 

 

 

I think you're mixing a football forum with the corporate world. At work I always tell my staff not to give me problems but to give me solutions, however that's what they're paid to do. Most of us on here pay good money to watch matches week in week out and that entitles us to take to a forum to share thoughts when things aren't going well (and indeed when they are going well) without necessarily coming up with the magic answer!

[Harry]

15 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

As with so many good or great posts this simply missss the point!! What is your proposed solution?

If you posted this and then said the board should ask SL to sanction getting Klopp to become our coach then I would discredit your post accordingly.

So, please just add one little line to your eloquently word post, namely " my suggestion is we appoint xxx today". Then it becomes a good post and not yet another complaint.

And  noone needs to worry about SL doing the right thing. Do you really believe he grew his mega business without making changes to his organisation of people he liked?! Really? 

 

 

Hi mate. Yes, I was gonna put some thoughts into the opening post but thought I'd probably rattled on for too long. 

For what it's worth, I put a list of managers and my own choices onto another thread (the likely candidates thread currently at 3 pages). It is difficult to know exactly who to approach though as it's impractical to throw names out when none of us know which bosses are prepared to work within the 'plan and structure' which we adopt. You would hope that if Mr Ashton is doing his job properly he would be sounding out some names and assessing as to whether they "fit" our requirements. 

I would've loved for LJ to have been the man to make this plan work, but I've sadly come to the conclusion that it's not going to work and a Head Coach change is required to take this to the next level. 

[Red-Robbo]

If I was a betting man I'd say LJ has one more match to save his job. An eighth league loss will force Lansdown to act.

Just my hunch.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

If I was a betting man I'd say LJ has one more match to save his job. An eighth league loss will force Lansdown to act.

Just my hunch.

I think he's going to be very precarious for a few weeks now. Anything less than a win v Forest followed by a point at Villa and I think it would be curtains. 

If I could put an accy it would be that we do beat forest but he loses his job after the Villa game. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I think he's going to be very precarious for a few weeks now. Anything less than a win v Forest followed by a point at Villa and I think it would be curtains. 

If I could put an accy it would be that we do beat forest but he loses his job after the Villa game. 

I wish I had your confidence, I can't see us beating an egg at this present time, even an egg in the basket case that is Florest.

[Superjack]

6 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I think he's going to be very precarious for a few weeks now. Anything less than a win v Forest followed by a point at Villa and I think it would be curtains. 

If I could put an accy it would be that we do beat forest but he loses his job after the Villa game. 

If we beat Forest then there is no way he will be sacked after Villa.

If we fluke a win before he's sacked, we're down.

[samo II]

22 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

If I was a betting man I'd say LJ has one more match to save his job. An eighth league loss will force Lansdown to act.

Just my hunch.

I think Fleetwood will be more pivotal than we think.

A win there, however jammy/fortunate, and I think he can get away with a draw at Forest, if for no other reason than he then has a couple of weeks after that till his next league game - the FA Cup may keep LJ in for a while longer.

11 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I think he's going to be very precarious for a few weeks now. Anything less than a win v Forest followed by a point at Villa and I think it would be curtains. 

If I could put an accy it would be that we do beat forest but he loses his job after the Villa game. 

I've been posting elsewhere how key the Forest game is; if LJ and the players (and the club) are not 100% focused on winning it (not performing well, not drawing; winning), then we are in serious trouble.

I'm actively scared Forest will 'react' (new gaffer or not) to the manager leaving, and drop us right in it.

We're in a terrible situation with very little hope to cling on to; I can't understand anyone who doesn't recognise it.

[marmite]

I think there is a real DANGER that we may win the next 2 to give us false hope (and LJ a lifeline) and then find it all goes wrong again and it will be too late to put it right. Supporting City is sure a bumpy ride!  Don't get me wrong, I want us to win them, I just hope it is a turning point and not a false dawn,

[chinapig]

Eloquently put Harry but unfortunately all the usual suspects the majority of fans want - because, you know, they're 'big names ' - are unlikely to be prepared to be just one of a wider management team but will want complete control. Any idea of a suitable candidate who would be prepared to be an expendable cog in the machine?

[Major Isewater]

18 hours ago, Harry said:

I've not posted too much on here through this season, decided to take a step back from this madhouse.  But anyone who knows my posting history will know that I have always been a patient supporter with regard to our managers, and have always backed them right to the end.  It took me a long time to turn against McInnes, it took me a long time to turn against SOD.  Whilst regulars will know that I was never in favour of Cotterill, whilst he was here I was 100% behind him, wanted him to succeed and never once did I call for his head.  Only when the obvious was not being corrected did I question his capability for the job.

We then come to LJ.  Again, I remember saying when was appointed that I did back the decision, but I did say on this very forum that my feelings were that it could possibly be a job too soon for him.  I could understand 100% why we bought into him, but I did comment that this could easily be a bust, and that maybe he didn't yet have the experience necessary. As said, perhaps a job too soon for him.

It all started with high hopes and a fantastic turnaround in results, but things have taken a very quick 360 and gone south.  Being the patient kinda guy I am, I'm never one to come on here and start calling for the chop.  I am a supporter that really wants stability at my club, I believe in a long-term plan, not a short-term fix, I don't want continual change at the top.  But, my patience is being severely tested this last few months.

As I look back on the season to date, I think I have been trying too hard to ignore what was infront of my eyes - perhaps I am being too patient.
August saw wins vs Wigan, Burton & Villa.  Whilst we lost to Newcastle & Norwich.
Whilst our performances in the 2 losses were actually quite commendable, the performances in the victories were not.  Villa was a pretty even game until they capitulated.  Wigan we struggled to be fair, and 2 late goals saw us win.  Burton we were lucky to come away with anything, and again, were rescued with a late winner.  LJ even said after that performance that we'd not played well, but stuck at it.
September - we deserved more at Rotherham, but again needed 2 late goals to take a point.  Fulham away was excellent.  We were our own worst enemies at Sheff Weds.  Vs Derby we again got lucky to take a point.  The home win against Leeds was anything but comfortable, and LJ himself said he was relieved to win.
Then October came and the true results of our performances started to come through.  Up until October, despite being 5th after the Leeds win, I think I was kidding myself that we were actually playing well and deserved to be where we were.  We were not.  Our wins had all come either through late goals, or sheer relief.  As much as we like to think we were playing well, I look back and can't think of a game (aside from Fulham), where we were unanimously deserving of victory.  I was in denial at the time though - perhaps through exhilaration I was blinding myself to the true facts.  And in fairness to @Olé, he called this out early on and was roundly hounded on here.  I think we could all see the truth, but we were riding a wave of denial.  We just wouldn't admit it to ourselves.

I also continued, like many, to believe in the "only losing by the odd-goal" theory.  This was easy to believe in after a couple of defeats, where we could easily have grabbed a point, or could argue that we were hard done by with decisions etc, but after a while this theory takes a different turn.  If we are that close to winning or drawing games but we always end up losing them, then surely the persistence of this spells out specific problems.  Defeats by the finest of margins may seem better than taking hammerings, but it's those fine margins that need to be analysed.  In this case, my analysis is that whilst there have been plenty of incidents of 'player error' being culpable, the current Head Coach does not seem to have the required minerals to put those right, and to instill the mentality, determination and tactics to turn this around.  The volume of such close defeats no longer shouts out to me that 'we're close to being a good side', it now screams 'there's something very very amiss'.

So, having reviewed the season to date in my own mind (including the early season 'supposed' good times), I have come to the conclusion that I am no longer prepared to be the patient guy I've always been in the past, and I am throwing my hat firmly in the 'sack' ring.

I do not make this decision easily.  I want stability.  However, I look at our long-term project and the way we are supposed to be structured now, and I don't believe changing the head coach should have too much upheaval.  Our structure should now be one which sees the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Scout handle all of the off-field matters of the club.  The Head Coach ONLY has responsibilities to the first team.  Yes, he has an overall input and final say on signings and other club matters, but the model we employ is one where the Head Coach is not responsible for all other aspects of the job aside from 1st team results.
Mark Ashton & Des Taylor have been employed to run the rest of the club.  Within this model, the Head Coach could and should be more flexible than the traditional model.  Not that the model should automatically encourage change, but when change is deemed necessary beyond doubt, the model should be more prepared to cope with such change - providing the new coach is one who also believes in that model (or at least agrees to work within it).

I believe in the long-term plan for this club.  I believe that investing in players for the future is a good model (Engvall, Moore, Magnusson, O'Dowda were all purchased with the next 5 years in mind and were not necessarily signed to have an impact this season).  This is the right thing, but we have fallen into the trap as supporters of expecting more from these players immediately.  Whilst it does seem somewhat bizarre for us to spend millions on players we do not expect to play, this is the model, and we as fans need to understand and accept that.  I for one will not criticise LJ for not utilising some of these players more regularly - these were not ready-made 2016/17 signings.  However, LJ does take full responsibility for 1st team results, and has been provided with plenty of pieces to produce better results.  Some of those pieces have let him down, and the rumours of disagreements between LJ and Tomlin, O'Neill & Paterson does not bring any of them up as smelling of roses.  But rifts such as that do often suggest something is not quite right behind the scenes - I don't mean that there is a "loss of the dressing room" by any stretch, but there are clearly issues that are impacting morale.

I am not one who is easily turned, but I am confident that the model we have in place means that a change of Head Coach will have no impact on the long-term future of the club.  We will still be scouting the same players (for now and for the future) no matter who is in charge of the first team.  Therefore, under this model, the Head Coach must carry the can 100% for results on the pitch, and should not be afforded any hang-time due to the long-term plan or other responsibilities at the club.

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

I agree , however the coach thing should surely mean that we could subtly bring in an old head to give LJ a bit of guidance without him losing face .

LJ is City through and through and it would be a shame if it all goes chest up. 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

Thanks for putting down pretty much word for word how I feel about the situation, Har.

 

[Red-Robbo]

I suppose it all hangs on three questions:

1) Can the players we have be coached to avoid cutting out the stupid mistakes we've seen recently? In particular,  can we instill a Championship level of team defending,  rather than the current out-of-position panic with everyone standing around but no one doing anything to discourage opponents' shots?

2) Can Lee make sensible team selections, based not on who he likes and who was keen in training,  but on who has been effective in a real-time match environment and what players can bring to the whole?

3) Can Lee keep players self-belief and morale up?

My answers to 1) is yes. I actually believe we have a good squad having good play slowly coached out of them. An older head, particularly one with a name for organising defences, should be brought to the club as a matter of urgency. 

2) Much less sure of this and pretty sure 3) is not Lee's forte. The level of performances given the weekly disappointments is astounding really. A testament to the players involved. 

Whatever we think, I'm pretty sure it will take a defeat at Fleetwood or Forest to remove him. He's here for now. 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

If I was a betting man I'd say LJ has one more match to save his job. An eighth league loss will force Lansdown to act.

Just my hunch.

and what an epitaph!!

[22A]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

I like LJ.  I think he's a genuinely nice guy, with a good heart and the right skills to go far in management, and I do not agree with a lot of the personal abuse he has taken from many posters.  However, I do believe, as I did this time last year, that this job came to soon for him.  I wish him all the best in the game, but right now the best thing for all concerned is to pull the plug on his tenure as Head Coach.

 

Sounds soooo similar to what was said about McInnes.

[Harry]

19 hours ago, 29AR said:

You say we've (with exception) bought for the future and accept [i agree] supporters place too much expectation on them in the current season. 

Take those players aside then and recall LJ arrived with Tomlin here. So what experience has he had added... GON. Absolutely nothing more besides the three jan signings who've had 1 league game.

You seem to say LJ has all the pieces to achieve more but actually the only experienced piece he has added (and we should not expect more from - your comment on the young players) is GON.  

I just find this a bit confused. Not least because you praise MA and DT for finding players who LJ should not expect too much from. Well if we were fodder last year, and for current season he's been given just GON in addition for immediate impact, what did you expect?! 

Hi mate.  With regard to MA & DT, I have not given them any praise.  I have only highlighted that its their job to scour the world for players, not LJ's.  The players they have brought in 'for the future' do have excellent potential on paper.  Player recruitment can never be judged on paper potential though, so only time will tell if these signings will grade high.  There is no praise at this point from me.

As for the tools LJ HAS been given to play with, I feel you have been a tad selective.  Tomlin may have been here on loan when LJ arrived, but he HAS been given him as a permanent resource.
Players which have been given to LJ for impact THIS season are :
Tomlin - Alleged bust-ups with the boss. Inconsistent performances. Lack of 'team' ethic.
O'Neill - Alleged bust-ups with the boss.  Inconsistent performances.
Paterson - Alleged bust-ups with the boss.  Inconsistent performances.
Matthews - Looked completely disengaged for the most part.  Rarely fit.
Ekstrand - Never gained fitness.
Brownhill - First few appearances were very weak.  Improved displays since recent recall.
Abraham - Exceeded all expectations.

6 of those 7 had previous Championship experience (some of them in bundles).  Only Tammy has performed at the required level (in his case exceeded).  Those brought in to provide impact this season have been incredibly disappointing.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I agree , however the coach thing should surely mean that we could subtly bring in an old head to give LJ a bit of guidance without him losing face .

LJ is City through and through and it would be a shame if it all goes chest up. 

 

Very true Major.  I understand LJ is very good friends with King Kenny.
Perhaps the structure we have in place should have someone from a much stronger football background, like Dalglish, in the position which Mark Ashton resides.  He can then do all the things the Chief Operating Officer should do, but also be able to provide much better and knowledgeable support to the Head Coach.
I guess this opens up a new conversation - Is Ashton the right man?

[Lanterne Rouge]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

Very true Major.  I understand LJ is very good friends with King Kenny.
Perhaps the structure we have in place should have someone from a much stronger football background, like Dalglish, in the position which Mark Ashton resides.  He can then do all the things the Chief Operating Officer should do, but also be able to provide much better and knowledgeable support to the Head Coach.
I guess this opens up a new conversation - Is Ashton the right man?

An interesting point but I see the two roles as equally important but different. MA for the business and an older football man for the playing side. It would be too tricky to find someone who could do both well IMO.

[Fiale]

46 minutes ago, Harry said:

Very true Major.  I understand LJ is very good friends with King Kenny.
Perhaps the structure we have in place should have someone from a much stronger football background, like Dalglish, in the position which Mark Ashton resides.  He can then do all the things the Chief Operating Officer should do, but also be able to provide much better and knowledgeable support to the Head Coach.
I guess this opens up a new conversation - Is Ashton the right man?

 

I thought our Academy was going to be ran by a top coach, appointing the youth team managers and coaches, ensuring continuation regardless of first team manager... if he was a solid, knowledgeable coach he would be the first port of call for the manager to lean on - the fact that LJ cannot, suggest he has no one to help him ? does not say much about all the coaches available to him at the club who should/could support him.

[sh1t_ref_again]

I dont see the problem as being with Mark Ashton or our scouts, we seem to have done some very good business with bringing players in. Our problem seems to be LJ once he has asked for these players then wants to keep changing if they play and where they play and probable what he wants them to do. I posted earlier we have used 30 players this year with only Flint and Tammy playing in all games, success comes from a team knowing who is next to you and instinctively aware of what they are going to do. We play like a bunch of strangers with no real camaraderie and fight for each other, team spirit that has sadly gone.