Definition of Insanity

[Olé]

"doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

I realise that Albert Einstein's supposed quote is one of the most overused cliche's on football forums but I can't think of a more apt one. I don't start new threads if I don't need to, so apologies but please indulge me on this one.

One thing that has really wound me up for a couple of months is being told that this is a blip and we were on a good run and now we are on a bad run, or that players are somehow undermining what LJ was personally getting right earlier in the season, or that views like mine and other peoples are knee-jerk and automatically blame the manager as the first resort or conclusion.

NOT TRUE.

I would like to make this an evidence-based thread to show that the problems have been there continually all season, and that in the first instance LJ was given the benefit of the doubt that he was a good manager and would fix them, but that ultimately after over five months we are still doing exactly the same, with whatever players we play.

 

Wycombe (A) - August 10th

"Poor game and LJ is spot on that we were tactically naive. We started well enough but in the end I think over 90 minutes Wycombe were the better team and certainly did a far better job of finding room and creating opportunities. Apart from Abraham's constant movement and willingness, I thought our lot today did nowhere near enough to affect the game and were half hearted in their attacking. At 1-0 up I just think they didn't really go for it and on another day we could have paid for it"

"We surrendered the initiative and rarely threatened second half."

"We didn't once get beyond defenders to the byline and get a decent cross in. The few times we might have taken the final man on to find room for a cross, we turned back inside and passed back. It was typical of how we played, hesitant, lacking confidence, apparently happy not to create chances. In most cases we invariably gave the ball away after deciding to pass up opportunities to get the ball in the box. I think this is typical of what LJ will describe as naive."

(time check - this was August folks)

"I'm deeply suspicious about the lack of tempo or real attacking intent against a 4th tier team, the two things LJ has been preaching but have been in short supply so far this season."

Burton (A) - August 13th

"That's three games in a row we've played like that and today we've literally mugged Burton despite being outplayed for most of it. The tactics are poor with no width, a real premium on creating chances (dependent on killer balls through the middle mainly) and losing out in midfield most of the time.

Been same all three games, happy days 3 wins but let's not be complacent, the tactics have not worked for most of the 270 minutes and LJ needs to sort it out"

Norwich (A) - August 16th

"Tactics still very compact with few crosses which for me still limits the number of chances that we create and puts pressure on clinical passing through the middle"

"We faded last 20 and they started picking us apart and could have had more"

"I'd rather see tactics that were less reliant on doing a Spain through the middle and gave the strikers more to work with"

Newcastle (H) - August 20th

"More of the same. More compact supposedly attacking formation, seemingly on instructions not to get wide and continually trying to cut inside and thread a through ball. Same striker(s) totally isolated getting no real support. Only difference today was that our bouts of possession around the box seemed to result in low probability shots from stupid positions. So that's the game we are playing. Hoping to win with low probability threadneedle passes through the middle and long distance shots.

We are playing the most attacking side I can ever remember and generating fewer chances than I can ever remember. It has been the same every game this season"

Aston Villa (H) - August 27th

"The narrowest 4-5-1 ever played. Two incredibly deep lines of players" (but mostly positive stuff, obvs)

Rotherham (A) - September 10th

"with our Arsenal away kit we are in danger of trying to pass the ball in"

Derby (H) - September 17th

"at times it was "Can't Pass Won't Pass", our biggest impediment is the quality or care in our short passing and our players decision making"

"for gods sake KEEP IT SIMPLE" (but my comments largely defending LJ and congratulating him on his intentions)

QPR (A) - October 18th

"It is becoming a feature of performances when we are closed down quickly and pressed that we do not maintain composure and cannot play the sort of passing game LJ sets us out to play."

"We want interplay and incision but have gone several games now with different midfield and attacking groups, none of whom have settled or got hold of the game and got to keep possession or build any passing rhythm."

"This isn't alarm bell time but it might be time to dust it off for standby. Either tactics didn't work or players cannot execute the tactics, and don't have a Plan B besides adding a striker and going more direct. We did not have many quality crosses and did not create any situations where we worked clear chances"

"We did not affect or deserve anything from the game."

Barnsley (A) - October 29th

"Zero width and players needing too many touches or thinking time to pick a pass, by which time there were no options besides hopeful punts forward."

Brighton (H) - November 5th

"We tried to slow it down by moving inside more than 40 yards out before giving the ball away in central midfield. None of those things achieve any attacking possession or shape, nor cause any problems, nor offer an incentive for our other players to get forward."

 

I could go on, but I can't be arsed (metaphor for our season). Looking back it was after Preston (H) a month ago I started to see the Emperors New Clothes. And I don't need to repeat what I said about Preston (H), Wolves (A), Ipswich (A), Reading (H) etc as you've all seen it and you can just perm any sentences from those shared above from as far back as August. This is what, for me at least, makes defence of LJ so untenable - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

And if anyone thinks I've been anti-LJ the whole time, I could link to my threads after Fulham, Leeds and Forest this season, when I was purring about him, and having searched, as a matter of record even on December 14th when his contract extension was announced, I was defending him. But it's a further month now and we're doing the exact same things we've been doing since the first week of the season, whatever players we play. The things I praised LJ for were clearly the exception, not the rule.

The bloke is not up to it. Has been given months and months and more money than every other Bristol City manager put together, and has either failed to address or is too stubborn to change, simple deficiencies that have been there since the heady, sunny days of August. Not knee jerk, all there in prior threads as a matter of record.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Blimey ! A lot of work in that post @Oléand a great and interesting read

Totally with you in your analysis , and conclusion

 

[chinapig]

Get with the times Ole, we are in a post -truth world. If LJ says it will just magically come good we should just ignore the evidence. Worked for Trump.

[Fordy62]

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been waiting for this!

[The Coach]

Hi @Olé

Agreed with your post match analysis in all those games. I didn't make the same comments purely because how much stick you got from other members. Although, you were correct every time. Been waiting for a long time for you to post this, and I am glad you have.

We were very lucky earlier on in the season. The luck has gone, and the true nature of the team and tactics has been showing last 10 games. Awfully troubling. 

[Dynamite Red]

I honestly think unless the fans force the issue then nothing will happen, our boardroom are allowing this incompetence to continue and have the heads stuck in the sand. He should have been sacked weeks ago.

[Walsheys step over]

Spot on good post

[One BCFC]

He has been given far more money than SC was given at this level and he hasn't delivered. Albeit, only halfway through a season the results in August and September blinded us a little bit. 

It has been the same problems game after game really, with no changes. I do not believe LJ is cut out for this level and nor do I believe he has the man mamagement skills for the club to progress.

The Fulham away game should have been the benchmark of how we play our football but it has been the opposite way since that game.

[samo II]

A depressingly accurate post, @Olé- whatever formation, whatever personnel staff it, I get the feeling you've got to the core of where our problems lie.

I also think that pretty much every other team we've played has noted this and worked to counter it; though it is the sort of approach that almost counters itself at times.

And this is the worst part of the problem; that this approach seems so ingrained in LJ's method, I cannot see a solution to it that invokes him still being here.

Others have said they don't just want a new coach for the sake of it, but right now I genuinely believe simply having someone come in who isn't wedded to this philosophy could genuinely lift us.

With Forest cutting loose their boss this weekend, and the importance of our match with them, I'm fearful we'll be in the  drop zone inside the month, and have no idea where the 6+ wins in 18/19 games we'll need to save ourselves will come from.

[Malago]

You're right olé, so why keep posting on OTIB expecting LJ to be sacked?

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, samo II said:

A depressingly accurate post, @Olé- whatever formation, whatever personnel staff it, I get the feeling you've got to the core of where our problems lie.

I also think that pretty much every other team we've played has noted this and worked to counter it; though it is the sort of approach that almost counters itself at times.

And this is the worst part of the problem; that this approach seems so ingrained in LJ's method, I cannot see a solution to it that invokes him still being here.

Others have said they don't just want a new coach for the sake of it, but right now I genuinely believe simply having someone come in who isn't wedded to this philosophy could genuinely lift us.

With Forest cutting loose their boss this weekend, and the importance of our match with them, I'm fearful we'll be in the  drop zone inside the month, and have no idea where the 6+ wins in 18/19 games we'll need to save ourselves will come from.

Absolutely right they have 

Said this a while back , they know that we are going to play a la Spain , without the quality needed , don't have to worry about a threat from wide (Save JB on his day) and exploit our lack of width whenever they get the ball

[Chairman Mao]

Width. I agree Mr Ole, we don't seem to either want to play with width or have the personel to do so. We need a RB and LW badly, I see Bryan as more of a CM than winger. Suspect Pack may be moved on, possibly either Tomlin or Reid too.

[cidercity1987]

How bizarre that our only proper winger couldnt get a look in on a 4-5-1, but gets plonked in centre mid in a 3-5-2 

[downendcity]

Definition of insanity?

Coming onto OTIB day after day and expecting to read something different!

[Red Exile]

An exceptional OP. A withering critique backed up by evidence. Thanks Ole...although it makes miserable reading...thank your lucky stars if you managed to miss Wednesday away!

[Dr Balls]

14 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Definition of insanity?

Coming onto OTIB day after day and expecting to read something different!

So true!

How about watching our team sit near the bottom end of the league repeatedly and expecting our board to respond appropriately & quickly?

[cidered abroad]

Johnson is an inexperienced head coach, less than three years at League One level, a rookie coach in Holden, Jamie McAllister, a mate from his playing days, as U 23 coach with nil previous coaching experience. Sunday lunch every week with his family, his Dad will be saying the same old things, so nothing new to try the next week in training.

Football isn't much different to any other industry; if you are less experienced than some of the workers, they will pick pieces of flesh off you. But the big difference is that when a player who was an average League One player, without any trophies, international caps, becomes a manager and has no titles, cups, promotions under his belt, is working in the claustrophobic atmosphere of a football dressing room and with players who have achieved more than he ever did, any cracks in the armour of the manager/head coach become apparent very quickly.

This dressing room culture is deadly for those who are found out; English players are not necessarily noted for their intelligence (see some of the head to heads in City I-Player) but they are experts at destroying the authority of the manager.

I don't know if he has already lost the dressing room but it's pretty close if not.

[boss hogg]

1 hour ago, Dynamite Red said:

I honestly think unless the fans force the issue then nothing will happen, our boardroom are allowing this incompetence to continue and have the heads stuck in the sand. He should have been sacked weeks ago.

fact of the matter is he should not be here in the first place he.s done nothing to get the job, i think we are well and truly stuck with him unless the fans really turn on him during games and make it really nasty against him i dont think sl will admit his mistake and lj seems to be really thick skinned or delusional , i think it,s both.

[Bazooka Joe]

12 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I don't know if he has already lost the dressing room but it's pretty close if not.

He's certainly lost most of the fans,

The Big Picture = mirrors and smokesceens to distract fans from what's happening right now- surely even the most deluded ain't gonna buy it anymore.

 

[Daniro]

Spot on.

 

On a lighter note, your mention of Emperor's New Clothes reminds me of Twentypence on the phone-in after the game yesterday - did anybody hear it?   The caller said the Mark Ashton regime was all Emperors new clothes and Twentypence said he didn't know the story so the caller had to tell him the whole thing.  Hilarious!! like being back at primary school - and even after he'd finished I don't think 20p understood the moral of the story - what a plonker he is.    So annoying that voice he uses to read out tweets!

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, Daniro said:

Spot on.

 

On a lighter note, your mention of Emperor's New Clothes reminds me of Twentypence on the phone-in after the game yesterday - did anybody hear it?   The caller said the Mark Ashton regime was all Emperors new clothes and Twentypence said he didn't know the story so the caller had to tell him the whole thing.  Hilarious!! like being back at primary school - and even after he'd finished I don't think 20p understood the moral of the story - what a plonker he is.    So annoying that voice he uses to read out tweets!

Yeah I cringed when I heard that. Surely everyone knows that story.... don`t they?

[Murraysrightplum]

Doing the same thing over and over... like sacking the manager every season...

Not saying LJ is the right man per se but we keep doing it and it doesn't work for us

[Davefevs]

@Olé been with you all the way here brother re the way we've played.  We somehow got results that belied performances....and in our naivety we saw that as the sign of a good team....one that wins when not playing well.  But when the tide turns, I think it's turned into a Tsunami.  

The slightly worrying thing for me is that our last 4 home games in the keague (Brentford, Preston, Reading and yesterday) is that bar Reading we have been as good, if not better than our opponents.  But that's not saying we've played well.

I'm not sure what my point is really, I think it's that the players are good enough to compete, but something else is amiss.

[robin_unreliant]

Sadly I think SL has gone for broke in Jan by bringing in the players that Lee thinks we need. What we lack is width and pace. What we are getting is height and experience. Not saying they aren't good players but I worry about the type of game we will end up seeing. Also how the hell can we exploit the height when we get ZERO crosses into the box.

Given he has backed Lee this month I suspect if we lose our next 3 away games he still won't sack him.

Therefore I think we need to start planning a mass boycott of the Sheff Wed game. As a ST holder who goes to every home game I can't bring myself to boo or demonstrate at a game. That will only make it worse for the players. I think staying away en masse would send a clear message which is what is needed to bring SL back to reality.

[samo II]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The slightly worrying thing for me is that our last 4 home games in the keague (Brentford, Preston, Reading and yesterday) is that bar Reading we have been as good, if not better than our opponents.  But that's not saying we've played well.

I'm not sure what my point is really, I think it's that the players are good enough to compete, but something else is amiss.

The point for me is that in playing poor teams around us (though credit where it is due; Preston and Brentford have both kicked on since playing us) and narrowly losing, we are heading for some very hard games against genuine in form and quality teams later on, which is now when we're going to most need results.

Calculated we'll need around 20 more points to hit the minimum that should guarantee us safety in the 20 remaining games; that's either 6 wins and a couple of draws (we never seem to get many of the latter), or maybe 8 draws and 4 wins.

Either way you slice it, we now must IMMEDIATELY become more resilient, and have to take points in close to half our remaining games - how likely does that look just now?  

Next weekend against Forest is for me as important as the away game to Wolves was in March 2013.  Yes; is earlier in the season, but has the same feel. Then we went to an absolutly shite team who were in crap form with a certifiable idiot in charge, us having clawed our way back into a half-decent contention over the previous games under SO'D, and then proceeded to capitulate, our whole season collapsing around us.

Forest is literally as important now; I'm already of a mind LJ is finished here, but we fail to get a win next week and I will believe we are in serious danger, and will begin to subscribe to the theory SL will not allow LJ to go, even if we go down.

I want us to beat Fleetwood this week, as I always hope we win every match, but am wondering if we fail in Lancashire that might force Ashton and SL's hand, so part of me is hoping Rosler's side are well up for the game, because we need a win next Sat.

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

"doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

I realise that Albert Einstein's supposed quote is one of the most overused cliche's on football forums but I can't think of a more apt one. I don't start new threads if I don't need to, so apologies but please indulge me on this one.

One thing that has really wound me up for a couple of months is being told that this is a blip and we were on a good run and now we are on a bad run, or that players are somehow undermining what LJ was personally getting right earlier in the season, or that views like mine and other peoples are knee-jerk and automatically blame the manager as the first resort or conclusion.

NOT TRUE.

I would like to make this an evidence-based thread to show that the problems have been there continually all season, and that in the first instance LJ was given the benefit of the doubt that he was a good manager and would fix them, but that ultimately after over five months we are still doing exactly the same, with whatever players we play.

 

Wycombe (A) - August 10th

"Poor game and LJ is spot on that we were tactically naive. We started well enough but in the end I think over 90 minutes Wycombe were the better team and certainly did a far better job of finding room and creating opportunities. Apart from Abraham's constant movement and willingness, I thought our lot today did nowhere near enough to affect the game and were half hearted in their attacking. At 1-0 up I just think they didn't really go for it and on another day we could have paid for it"

"We surrendered the initiative and rarely threatened second half."

"We didn't once get beyond defenders to the byline and get a decent cross in. The few times we might have taken the final man on to find room for a cross, we turned back inside and passed back. It was typical of how we played, hesitant, lacking confidence, apparently happy not to create chances. In most cases we invariably gave the ball away after deciding to pass up opportunities to get the ball in the box. I think this is typical of what LJ will describe as naive."

(time check - this was August folks)

"I'm deeply suspicious about the lack of tempo or real attacking intent against a 4th tier team, the two things LJ has been preaching but have been in short supply so far this season."

Burton (A) - August 13th

"That's three games in a row we've played like that and today we've literally mugged Burton despite being outplayed for most of it. The tactics are poor with no width, a real premium on creating chances (dependent on killer balls through the middle mainly) and losing out in midfield most of the time.

Been same all three games, happy days 3 wins but let's not be complacent, the tactics have not worked for most of the 270 minutes and LJ needs to sort it out"

Norwich (A) - August 16th

"Tactics still very compact with few crosses which for me still limits the number of chances that we create and puts pressure on clinical passing through the middle"

"We faded last 20 and they started picking us apart and could have had more"

"I'd rather see tactics that were less reliant on doing a Spain through the middle and gave the strikers more to work with"

Newcastle (H) - August 20th

"More of the same. More compact supposedly attacking formation, seemingly on instructions not to get wide and continually trying to cut inside and thread a through ball. Same striker(s) totally isolated getting no real support. Only difference today was that our bouts of possession around the box seemed to result in low probability shots from stupid positions. So that's the game we are playing. Hoping to win with low probability threadneedle passes through the middle and long distance shots.

We are playing the most attacking side I can ever remember and generating fewer chances than I can ever remember. It has been the same every game this season"

Aston Villa (H) - August 27th

"The narrowest 4-5-1 ever played. Two incredibly deep lines of players" (but mostly positive stuff, obvs)

Rotherham (A) - September 10th

"with our Arsenal away kit we are in danger of trying to pass the ball in"

Derby (H) - September 17th

"at times it was "Can't Pass Won't Pass", our biggest impediment is the quality or care in our short passing and our players decision making"

"for gods sake KEEP IT SIMPLE" (but my comments largely defending LJ and congratulating him on his intentions)

QPR (A) - October 18th

"It is becoming a feature of performances when we are closed down quickly and pressed that we do not maintain composure and cannot play the sort of passing game LJ sets us out to play."

"We want interplay and incision but have gone several games now with different midfield and attacking groups, none of whom have settled or got hold of the game and got to keep possession or build any passing rhythm."

"This isn't alarm bell time but it might be time to dust it off for standby. Either tactics didn't work or players cannot execute the tactics, and don't have a Plan B besides adding a striker and going more direct. We did not have many quality crosses and did not create any situations where we worked clear chances"

"We did not affect or deserve anything from the game."

Barnsley (A) - October 29th

"Zero width and players needing too many touches or thinking time to pick a pass, by which time there were no options besides hopeful punts forward."

Brighton (H) - November 5th

"We tried to slow it down by moving inside more than 40 yards out before giving the ball away in central midfield. None of those things achieve any attacking possession or shape, nor cause any problems, nor offer an incentive for our other players to get forward."

 

I could go on, but I can't be arsed (metaphor for our season). Looking back it was after Preston (H) a month ago I started to see the Emperors New Clothes. And I don't need to repeat what I said about Preston (H), Wolves (A), Ipswich (A), Reading (H) etc as you've all seen it and you can just perm any sentences from those shared above from as far back as August. This is what, for me at least, makes defence of LJ so untenable - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

And if anyone thinks I've been anti-LJ the whole time, I could link to my threads after Fulham, Leeds and Forest this season, when I was purring about him, and having searched, as a matter of record even on December 14th when his contract extension was announced, I was defending him. But it's a further month now and we're doing the exact same things we've been doing since the first week of the season, whatever players we play. The things I praised LJ for were clearly the exception, not the rule.

The bloke is not up to it. Has been given months and months and more money than every other Bristol City manager put together, and has either failed to address or is too stubborn to change, simple deficiencies that have been there since the heady, sunny days of August. Not knee jerk, all there in prior threads as a matter of record.

Can someone pin that to LJs office door please? 

[Roger Red Hat]

9 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Can someone pin that to LJs office door please? 

.......email it to SL!     .........and don't let SL pick the next head coach.

[pillred]

1 hour ago, boss hogg said:

fact of the matter is he should not be here in the first place he.s done nothing to get the job, i think we are well and truly stuck with him unless the fans really turn on him during games and make it really nasty against him i dont think sl will admit his mistake and lj seems to be really thick skinned or delusional , i think it,s both.

yes I was sat in the south stand and some fans clapped the players when they came up to us, I only have one question for you WHY!!

[boss hogg]

3 minutes ago, pillred said:

yes I was sat in the south stand and some fans clapped the players when they came up to us, I only have one question for you WHY!!

sorry mate i dont understand the question.

[pillred]

14 minutes ago, boss hogg said:

sorry mate i dont understand the question.

why did any fans clap, if I have been served with a disappointing meal in a restaurant I don't normally tip, it was not why did YOU clap