Red Exile Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, shelts said: Lee Tomlin, one of the best creative players in the league.....did he tell you that On his day one of the best players I've seen play for us...and of course he didn't tell me to say that...I can't imagine we didn't know he'd be tricky to manage, but we still signed him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTEND WURZEL Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 12 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said: 'Pembo' was in charge for 3 games, hardly a good sample to judge him by. 4 games 7pts , 1 goal conceded with nothing like the players that he now has at his disposal , check his record not just st our club a very competent stand in by any standards . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityloyal473 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 12 minutes ago, Br1stolCityBoy said: No player should be allowed to undermine any manager. Supporters are with there club for possibly over 60 years plus. A player is lucky to have 10 to 15 max years with a club. The manager might make bad decisions, but players should be 100% behind him no matter what goes on at the end. They should be doing their best for the people who pay there wages. Otherwise bye bye. No one should be bigger than their club. Perhaps they felt they had to undermine him. Perhaps they went to him with their concerns, got short thrift and decided they had to take it higher. Thats what would happen in a lot workplaces around the world if you felt your concerns weren't being heard If the players have gone above his head I suppose it shows in a perverse way that they give a shit. They could easily have said screw and sit on the bench earning wonga. Not saying I agree with it but perhaps they felt this was a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelts Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, Red Exile said: On his day one of the best players I've seen play for us...and of course he didn't tell me to say that...I can't imagine we didn't know he'd be tricky to manage, but we still signed him... Undoubtedly a talent. Everything about him massive....waistline , ego, transfer fee, wages, head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br1stolCityBoy Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, cityloyal473 said: Perhaps they felt they had to undermine him. Perhaps they went to him with their concerns, got short thrift and decided they had to take it higher. Thats what would happen in a lot workplaces around the world if you felt your concerns weren't being heard. If the players have gone above his head I suppose it shows in a perverse way that they give a shit. They could easily have said screw and sit on the bench earning wonga. Not saying I agree with it but perhaps they felt this was a last resort. I personally think if the players give a shit then they should be trying even harder. There paid a lot of money and they are supposed to be professionals.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityloyal473 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, Br1stolCityBoy said: I personally think if the players give a shit then they should be trying even harder. There paid a lot of money and they are supposed to be professionals.. I think the players are trying hard. I don't see a lack of commitment. I think they're baffled by tactics changing every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Many of the posts in this thread, whilst heartfelt and full of what ought to be the case, fail to recognise that in the game of professional football it's the professional footballers that have the skills on which everything else depends. It's them that everyone turns up to watch. A terribly nice and well behaved and meek and talentless bunch will win nothing and be watched by no one...on the other hand highly talented but hard to manage players will have people on their feet. I can't begin to see how anyone can fail to recognise that if a talented and experienced player and a rookie manager fall out the problem for the club lies in the manager, not the player. And whilst a talented player can walk and find another club that will hope to manage him better, the manager's reputation will be dented and he'll struggle to get similarly talented people to perform for him unless he changes his approach. That would be true of almost any branch of the entertainment industry...music...film...TV...it might not be nice but it's reality. Talent is scarce, which is why it is highly rewarded. Equally well rewarded are people - film directors, music producers - who can get a performance from the talent they have. I'd suggest that LJ is failing to do just that...and like it or not whilst the team isn't performing the problem is with him, not the players. Edit: and the difficulty of managing talented people is one of the reasons why it is so hard to get a break as, say, a film director...you need a reputation and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: Also in the Costa and Payet threads we slate them for their shortcomings to the team. Yet them underperforming means LJ is the problem. Maybe LJ is the problem but none of those players have given their all this year or been anywhere near as good as they can be. When your highest paid players don't lead by example and complain it doesn't set a good example for the others. Everyone needs to take a good look in the mirror if it's all true. LJ as a manager and those players. Exactly. Nicky Hunt wasn't a bad player because of Coppell or Millen. I don't believe for a second that the last 15 minutes were totally down to Lee's instruction- I.e stop doing what you've been doing for the past 75 mins and back off every time Cardiff get the ball. Lee has to get it right and damn quick but if a few players think they can dictate team selection , tactics and training then they can sod off. Managers at BCFC rarely ever leave this club of their own accord whereas good players always do. Players who don't get selected blame the management not their own performance or attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, JasonM88 said: Or the fact the player doesn't actually want to play for Lee Johnson due to the poor man management. It's clear LJ can't handle the pressure Or maybe, and you might not like to hear this but maybe his head has been turned by a bigger club and higher wages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmite Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Who's fault is it that we play with no width and drop back far too deep in the last quarter of every game (which is when we are always conceding)? It must be down to managers instructions and preplanning cos we do it every game. The players seem to have this negativity instilled in them now. Why cant we see games out in the opponents penalty area rather than our own ? You do what the manager tells you to do and I'm sorry LJ but the buck stops with you. Step up or ship out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxo Jr. Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: Fact is out of all the transfers this season, the two experienced ones have been the most disappointing in Tomlin and O'Neil. Haven't produced consistently enough and don't lead by example. Why should LJ cater to them? We all called for Tomlin and it hasn't worked but there was no point to the O'Neil signing. High wages for an aging non vocal leader who doesn't have the legs to lead by example anymore. I wouldn't lose any sleep if Tomlin, O'Neil and Paterson left TBH. Came in with big reputations and have stagnated the team. Give me Brownhill over O'Neil, Reid over Tomlin and O'Dowda over Paterson. They all leave everything on the pitch at a fraction of the cost. I'd still have Tomlin over Reid, but agree about the other two. If he's trying to oust the manager though, get him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Bouncearoundtheground said: Sounds like we're back to having a squad full of overpaid rotters to me. Or, a squad of players ( mostly bought in by LJ) that LJ isn't capable of coaching. If our most experienced players who have played at a far higher level ( and been coached by coaches with far more experience) than LJ can clearly see things wrong, then they are going to voice their opinions. Rightly or wrongly, this happens at all levels of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazelboy Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 59 minutes ago, Rich_s said: Unsubstantiated b*llocks followed by more unsubstantiated b*llocks in reply. You really couldn't be further from the truth! Major, major problems at BCFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said: 1 Yes - and a few more words 2 Yes 3 Not sure / don't know Who cares if its true, you don't tell your manager to **** off with more obscenities and not expect to deal with the consequences in any profession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxo Jr. Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Portland Bill said: Or, a squad of players ( mostly bought in by LJ) that LJ isn't capable of coaching. If our most experienced players who have played at a far higher level ( and been coached by coaches with far more experience) than LJ can clearly see things wrong, then they are going to voice their opinions. Rightly or wrongly, this happens at all levels of the game. It depends on how far the complaint stretches, which none of us can know. If it's just a complaint to the board or Lansdown, that you could accept. If it stretches to not giving 100% for the team, that's where the line is crossed. That's what Chelsea did, and it's a disgrace if it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Balls Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 One of the major issues as a manager or head coach is man management. The more talented the people you are managing the bigger the egos and the more challenging it can be. Challenging but not impossible. Some act as dictators you wouldn't dare contradict (Fergie) while others are more intellectual about it (Wenger). What no player enjoys is being picked out for criticism in public after a game. Experienced managers know this - Cotterill for all of the other things you might say about him never did it. LJ has done it a number of times. LJ is learning on the job. He may have his badges but almost all of his playing time was under his dad as manager, which I think we can all agree is less than ideal. Of course more experienced & talented players might challenge him about training, tactics, team selection etc, but it's about how you handle that. It can be done positively, or it can be done negatively. You don't want to be a walkover but the risk if you choose the latter option and try to impose yourself is that if things don't go well then automatically you will lose that person 's respect. Some of the younger players need a bit of comforting. Not mollycoddling but at least a sympathetic ear. Not sure that they are getting that. Constantly chopping and changing also just feeds into a loss of respect from players as you start to look indecisive. Then playing them out of their best position just compounds it. Plus it's clear that there are some players that LJ clearly doesn't rate and has been downright harsh in his treatment of them. Now I am not saying that being a football manager/ head coach is easy. In few other roles are you so easily judged by the results you achieve, but there are skills beyond tactics and team selection that are hugely important to have or obtain in keeping a group of employees happy. Generally successful experienced managers (both in football & in the outside world) have worked out a style that works most of the time and stick by it. If all of these stories about player dis-satisfaction are true, then there is no way back as a manager. You can cope with one rotten apple or awkward customer, but if you get a whole cohort of them offside with you because of the way you are acting as the manager then that's a terminal situation. Continually losing is only going to add to their frustration and their feeling that they are right in their concerns about the manager. For all we may hate the team losing, players don't enjoy it much either. But if they feel they have been set up to fail then resentment will be the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityloyal473 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Or, a squad of players ( mostly bought in by LJ) that LJ isn't capable of coaching. If our most experienced players who have played at a far higher level ( and been coached by coaches with far more experience) than LJ can clearly see things wrong, then they are going to voice their opinions. Rightly or wrongly, this happens at all levels of the game. This^^ Kind of backs up the talks the talk but cant walk the walk theory regarding LJ. He must have convinced O'Neil, LT, Paterson et al., to come here (talked the talk) with talk of the 'project', fancy coaching ideas, and other big ideas. But, I believe, when its come to him walking the walk they've all collectively gone WTF is this shit and possibly feel they've been sold a turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shtanley Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Whatever you think of LJ I think to go to SL and complain about him like it sounds they have is pretty out of order. Surely Wilbraham as captain should be the outlet for any concerns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, cityloyal473 said: This^^ Kind of backs up the talks the talks but cant walk the walk theory regarding LJ. He must have convinced O'Neil, LT, Paterson et al., to come here (talked the talk) with talk of the 'project', fancy coaching ideas, and other big ideas. But, I believe, when its come to him walking the walk they've all collectively got WTF is this shit and possibly feel they've been sold a turkey. Still doesn't give them the right to act unprofessional if the stories are actually true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said: Who cares if its true, you don't tell your manager to **** off with more obscenities and not expect to deal with the consequences in any profession In the entertainment industry there would, in my experience, be far worse consequences for the manager than for a star who felt they could treat their manager with such disrespect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAl&Toby Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Cov 77 said: Cannot and won't give source but is absolutely solid , changing room after the match , Johnson lost it completely , blamed Little on penalty, Bryan on second, ranted and raved then turned to the non used players ( about six of them ) including Reid and Freeman etc to get out as they were irrevelant and told other staff in there to go as well. Has fallen out with O'Neill big time and Tomlin has told him he has lost his respect , others are fed up of the constant chopping and changing and players don't understand what he wants from them, fair to say he's lost the dressing room. What lansdown and Ashton have to understand it's our club not there's , but it's the clique that's keeping him in a job, if they don't act to get rid of him this could get much worse. Excellent. Exactly what I'd expect of any decent manager. Give those that deserve a good old b********g. And let's face it, Little's was overdue and I'm not certain that his goal would've saved Joe "he's one of our own" Bryan. And if it's true that GON is questioning LJ and LT is having a running argument with LJ then I'd ship them out. Straightaway. Talented individuals or not. With merit or without it. You tell the boss to "**** off" and there should only be one outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityloyal473 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said: Still doesn't give them the right to act unprofessional if the stories are actually true... Agreed. But none of us know the full story (if there is one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said: What is it about the internet where people love a good conspiracy theory? Players do occasionally ger narked at managers and vice versa. Words can be spoken. Anyone who has played at any level at all will have experienced this. It doesn't mean anyone is "a rotter", it's life.It doesn't mean the players won't be trying their best for the sake of the club - and their own careers. The idea that players approached the board about Johnson's selections is highly unlikely tbh. It happens a lot actually. But it won't have been the players themselves going to SL. They'd have got their agents to do their dirty work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityloyal473 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, BigAlToby&Liam said: Excellent. Exactly what I'd expect of any decent manager. Give those that deserve a good old b********g. And let's face it, Little's was overdue and I'm not certain that his goal would've saved Joe "he's one of our own" Bryan. And if it's true that GON is questioning LJ and LT is having a running argument with LJ then I'd ship them out. Straightaway. Talented individuals or not. With merit or without it. You tell the boss to "**** off" and there should only be one outcome. So you think this is ok? "ranted and raved then turned to the non used players ( about six of them ) including Reid and Freeman etc to get out as they were irrevelant and told other staff in there to go as well." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelts Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, cityloyal473 said: If this is true - then the contract extension may have been an attempt to put the players back in their box. Totally agree . A sign of he ain't going anywhere, get on with it or get going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: It happens a lot actually. But it won't have been the players themselves going to SL. They'd have got their agents to do their dirty work. Agents - they will have the club's best interest at heart won't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olé Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 44 minutes ago, Red Exile said: I can't imagine we didn't know he'd be tricky to manage, but we still signed him... If only there was some sort of process where LJ could have tried him out before he bought him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, BigAlToby&Liam said: Excellent. Exactly what I'd expect of any decent manager. Give those that deserve a good old b********g. And let's face it, Little's was overdue and I'm not certain that his goal would've saved Joe "he's one of our own" Bryan. And if it's true that GON is questioning LJ and LT is having a running argument with LJ then I'd ship them out. Straightaway. Talented individuals or not. With merit or without it. You tell the boss to "**** off" and there should only be one outcome. Exactly, if LJ had gone mad at the team and gave right good rollicking, isn't that we want? I mean plenty of people seem to laud Uncle Colin being harsh on his players if they are not performing to the level he requires. LJ knows he will be in for the same fate from his bosses so only fair to give his staff one to, in the end his job is more on the line than theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepUpLino Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, shelts said: Totally agree . A sign of he ain't going anywhere, get on with it or get going? That'll work :SSSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Balls Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said: Still doesn't give them the right to act unprofessional if the stories are actually true... Depends whether you think it's professional to act as a "whistleblower" when you perceive something clearly going wrong, and the line manager ignores your concerns, or worse still is the source of your concerns. In most industries, it has been learnt that "whistleblowers" need to be taken seriously and protected, assuming that they are not trying to act maliciously. Senior professionals voicing serious concerns to the owner about a manager/head coach should be a major alarm bell that something is wrong and needs to be investigated appropriately. It's a common theme when things go badly wrong in all industries and walks of life that there were people who were aware of issues, but either no one listened to them or they were deliberately ignored. From all that has been written in here, it can't all just be conspiracy theories bouncing around the echo chamber of the forum, there must be at least a grain of truth in them somewhere. All of which points to a very worrying situation, and at least in part explains our worst run of league defeats in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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