GrahamC Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 43 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said: Well he wouldn't have utilised him even if he was because he was a loanee You mean like Nathan Baker and Elliott Bennett? Whom he picked for every single game that they were available.. Cotterill was well backed in the market in the promotion season but he also sold Baldock for excess of £2m which covered almost all of it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, GrahamC said: You mean like Nathan Baker and Elliott Bennett? Whom he picked for every single game that they were available.. Cotterill was well back in the market in the promotion season but he also sold Baldock for excess of £2m which covered almost all of it.. And what about the others he didn't? What about Cox? Or Fredericks who left after 1 month? Is this really the green light for him to return to manage this club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, Emperor Palpatine said: And what about the others he didn't? What about Cox? Or Fredericks who left after 1 month? Is this really the green light for him to return to manage this club? No it isn't, which I had covered in a previous post. His record, when relative spend is taken into account though, is certainly no worse and as we know he actually picked up 4 more points in what were his last 11 games with us than the current post holder has, yet miraculously LJ remains in a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 30 minutes ago, GrahamC said: You mean like Nathan Baker and Elliott Bennett? Whom he picked for every single game that they were available.. Cotterill was well backed in the market in the promotion season but he also sold Baldock for excess of £2m which covered almost all of it.. Hang on, doesn't that logic also apply to LJ this summer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: Hang on, doesn't that logic also apply to LJ this summer? It does, all thanks to him inheriting a player from Cotterill that reportedly could be worth up to £15m to us.. The big difference (and presumably why so many of us have lost any faith in LJ) is just in the sheer volume of spend.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, GrahamC said: It does, all thanks to him inheriting a player from Cotterill that reportedly could be worth up to £15m to us.. The big difference (and presumably why so many of us have lost any faith in LJ) is just in the sheer volume of spend.. SC inherited Baldock too did he not? In context I could not honestly tell you who's spend was comparatively bigger. We were paying some of our signings from the summer of 2014 up to 4/5 times the average L1 wage though. So we know SC was backed well then, very, very well in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EstoniaTallinnRed Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Fordy62 said: That's just not true Rob. He's spent what; 15-20m and got us in free fall, in every real danger of relegation. And thats not even taking into account the fact that he's borrowed a striker who's worth arguably 30m - imagine if we didn't have Tammy - we'd be cut adrift of Rotherham! Coterill had none of this and we'll never know on a level playing field how Cotts would have done with such backing. But I assure you, he wouldn't have done any worse. I don't think that LJ will be sacked, but were he to be sacked this evening, he'll go down as the biggest waster ever to be in charge of our club... And if you care to disagree, just look at the embarrassment of riches in the squad... he can't even buy a draw! Very true Fordy, agree with every word you say, too many LJ fans on this forum who can't see sense and are blinded by the mans BS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said: Interesting you mention Tammy. He wouldn't have been here if SC was still at the helm. We wouldn't have needed him as we would have been in the Premiership with Grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Can somebody actually total up what LJ has spent on players, I'm struggling to work out how its 15-20m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, NickJ said: We wouldn't have needed him as we would have been in the Premiership with Grey. How do you work that out? Grey didn't want to come here. Unsurprisingly he chose to go to a club with parachute payments and were one of the promotion favourites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said: Very true Fordy, agree with every word you say, too many LJ fans on this forum who can't see sense and are blinded by the mans BS! How can you agree with every word when the valuation of TA would've been inaccurate at the start of the season... he had 2 first team appearances with Chelsea beforehand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 12 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: Can somebody actually total up what LJ has spent on players, I'm struggling to work out how its 15-20m. It isn't especially when we by all accounts, haven't spent all the money from the JK fee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 27 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: SC inherited Baldock too did he not? In context I could not honestly tell you who's spend was comparatively bigger. We were paying some of our signings from the summer of 2014 up to 4/5 times the average L1 wage though. So we know SC was backed well then, very, very well in fact. He did. I'm also pretty sure we didn't have the highest wage bill whilst we were in League One, Sheff U's was certainly higher than ours and yet we finished top by an absolute mile under Cotterill. We are currently dropping like a stone to a point when Rotherham and Burton may soon be two of the three or four clubs below us, yet I'd be absolutely amazed if we were even bottom eight payers this season (Barnsley, Brentford and Preston for instance, they all pay far less than us) yet all 3 of them are leaving us behind, that in contrast is some underachievement.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 16 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: Can somebody actually total up what LJ has spent on players, I'm struggling to work out how its 15-20m. Here you go; Tomlin £3m Magnusson £2.5m Engvall "close to" £2m according to LJ. Moore £1.5m O'Dowda "up to" £1.1m Paterson £600-750k Djuric £1.5m Wright- a rumoured £500k Hegeler £300k Brownhill £200k I doubt that the loan fees we paid for either Abraham and Matthews were cheap. Lucic around £150k None of these amounts include any signing on fees, so Gary O'Neil for instance turning down a new contract at Norwich will have got a very tidy sum. That is at least £15m, but is probably much nearer to £17m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Most sacked managers get, at best, 6 month pay off. Most left than 3. Source - LMA Chairman on Talksport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Here you go; Tomlin £3m Magnusson £2.5m Engvall "close to" £2m according to LJ. Moore £1.5m O'Dowda "up to" £1.1m Paterson £600-750k Djuric £1.5m Wright- a rumoured £500k Hegeler £300k Brownhill £200k I doubt that the loan fees we paid for either Abraham and Matthews were cheap. Lucic around £150k None of these amounts include any signing on fees, so Gary O'Neil for instance turning down a new contract at Norwich will have got a very tidy sum. That is at least £15m, but is probably much nearer to £17m. The ones highlighted are right The rest say of them you say with fact but most of them were undisclosed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 28 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said: The ones highlighted are right The rest say of them you say with fact but most of them were undisclosed... The Engvall fee came straight from the mouth of our head coach when he was interviewed by Geoff Twentyman and has also been widely reported in the Swedish media, as was confirmed by Tommy (who speaks far better Swedish than I do!) on here. O'Dowda's fee was disclosed as an initial £800k rising to £1.1m by Oxford, the fees for the 3 brought in last week were widely reported, Brownhill and Lucic's relatively small transfer fees were also reported by their selling clubs. You think that my figures are an overestimate of him spending circa £17m (when including signing on fees) so far, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Grim Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 ******* hell, LJ is bad but not bad enough to want SC back. That said, I can't imagine him doing this bad with the funds provided. Both arnt good enough for this level. Unfortunately i can't see LJ getting the sack anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EstoniaTallinnRed Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Emperor Palpatine said: How can you agree with every word when the valuation of TA would've been inaccurate at the start of the season... he had 2 first team appearances with Chelsea beforehand Chelsea are the ones who know the true valuation, it could be less it could be more than Fordy said, but remember Tammy has scored 18 goals in a free falling Championship team, how many may he have scored in a top of the table team and what would Chelsea put his valuation to then? In any case I think Fordy is quoting the valuation at this moment in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 4 hours ago, Fordy62 said: I agree. It is nonsense. Far too many bridges have been burnt. But I can assure you this... LJ is 5(?) points better off than Cotts at this point in the season, having spent 20m, borrowed a 30m striker & probably doubled/tripled the wage bill. You cannot stand by the fact that he's done a better job. 4 hours ago, GrahamC said: I don't think it would be wise for one minute for him to return and that despite the fact I am a big fan of Cotterill. However those trying to claim that LJ is somehow doing any better than him are simply comparing apples with oranges. For the first few months of last season Cotterill's subs bench usually included Max O'Leary, El-Abd, Reid, Waggy, Burns and Agard, no £8m worth of expenditure on that bench... Despite this we were just as competitive as this season in many (not all) games and as others have pointed out, he spent about £12m less. Final point, it was the huge profit that we made on Cotterill's only big money signing that actually funded LJ's summer spending.. 3 hours ago, Red Exile said: A splendidly mischievous OP. Returning to Cotts wouldn't be my choice, or I imagine the club's...but that would be a conversation worth eavesdropping on! 3 hours ago, GrahamC said: You mean like Nathan Baker and Elliott Bennett? Whom he picked for every single game that they were available.. Cotterill was well backed in the market in the promotion season but he also sold Baldock for excess of £2m which covered almost all of it.. A subset of the posts I tend to ageee with, but I was a Cotts fan. I don't think it's right we go back in for him, but there is a sentimental part of me that wished he'd never got the sack. All of this comparison stuff is pointless really, but even the die-hard fans of LJ must be questioning his tenure a tad? Surely? I did with Cotts. As I said, big Cotts fan but I'm not naive and blinkered to say he didn't help himself come the end. Finally, a plea to all - Can we stop using win percentage as a gauge of management ability comparison. At least use points (per game), it's the thing that counts in the league table.....well it was last time I looked. Even then you're comparing one season with another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Davefevs said: A subset of the posts I tend to ageee with, but I was a Cotts fan. I don't think it's right we go back in for him, but there is a sentimental part of me that wished he'd never got the sack. All of this comparison stuff is pointless really, but even the die-hard fans of LJ must be questioning his tenure a tad? Surely? I did with Cotts. As I said, big Cotts fan but I'm not naive and blinkered to say he didn't help himself come the end. Finally, a plea to all - Can we stop using win percentage as a gauge of management ability comparison. At least use points (per game), it's the thing that counts in the league table.....well it was last time I looked. Even then you're comparing one season with another. Why? Its a perfect legitimate stat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Emperor Palpatine said: Why? Its a perfect legitimate stat Of course it's legitimate stat, but it's meaningless when you use to compare: 10 matches, 3 wins, 3 draws and 4 defeats - 12 points win % 30% 10 matches, 4 wins, 6 defeats - same 12 points win % 40% 10 matches, 3 wins, 6 draws, 1 defeat, 15 points win % 30% Happy for you to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: Of course it's legitimate stat, but it's meaningless when you use to compare: 10 matches, 3 wins, 3 draws and 4 defeats - 12 points win % 30% 10 matches, 4 wins, 6 defeats - same 12 points win % 40% 10 matches, 3 wins, 6 draws, 1 defeat, 15 points win % 30% Happy for you to disagree. I disagree because they don't base it on PPG, its generally win % Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, Emperor Palpatine said: I disagree because they don't base it on PPG, its generally win % Ok, we are probably missing each other's point. I'm saying that the important stat is points in the league table in a comparable amount of games. No point having a win % of 50% if you're losing the other 50%. Wouldn't you rather have a manager who had a lower win %, say 40%, draw 40% and lose 20%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 13 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Ok, we are probably missing each other's point. I'm saying that the important stat is points in the league table in a comparable amount of games. No point having a win % of 50% if you're losing the other 50%. Wouldn't you rather have a manager who had a lower win %, say 40%, draw 40% and lose 20%? Ok even if you want to use PPG and we're talking records in the Championship because LJ has only managed us at this level... from the time he took over but LJ 1.15 per game and SC .81 per game. Whatever's happened during this horrendous run I don't know but before this LJs PPG was actually very impressive, I think when posters are calling him useless (not you) is extremely harsh. Plus if people are happy to bad mouth LJ for the mess we are in now.. fine but SC is no means exempt from this either last season and to say otherwise is nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Of course I understand why those skeptical about LJ's appointment are enjoying their day in the sun. That's not to say I'm entirely sure why people who apparently support Bristol City feel so smug about us doing so badly but other people are frequently a mystery to me and that's okay. But, whilst the 2014-2015 season was the best in my memory, a return for Cotterill is not the answer. The bad blood between him and the board last season drew a rift between him and the club and, perilous though things currently are, I still feel way more confident about staying up than I did this time last season. The board need to make a change but that does not mean they were wrong to make a change last season (that decision kept us up) and a reversion to the situation that nearly doomed us last season is not the solution now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 I'm certainly not enjoying it. I'm gutted for all involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: I'm certainly not enjoying it. I'm gutted for all involved. Assuming that's a reply to me, I definitely don't put you in that category. There are plenty of supporters who gave LJ a fair crack of the whip but who have an understandable frustration with the way things have gone. I get the impression you are one of those and that is utterly fair enough. What frustrates me is certain posters who were pretty much invisible when LJ was doing well but, the moment things have gone pear-shaped, have crawled out the woodwork to remind us how smug they were about LJ's appointment, whilst simultaneously ignoring the fact that, had we stuck with Cotts and his form to that point had continued, we'd currently be trying to navigate our way out of League One again. Speaking as a City fan, I've sometimes been pleased about decisions we've made and sometimes been skeptical but I cannot for the life of me get how anyone can post on here and take pride in the fact that their prediction that a manager would not work out has paid off. Christ knows we've been appointed managers I've been skeptical about, sometimes with good reason, but the simple fact is that when the manager does badly the club does badly so I want every manager to succeed and I support them until they are no longer manager of the club. The fact another supporter can take pride in the fact they are right about how badly the club are doing utterly turns my stomach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudyThatchers Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 I've heard from a reliable source that SC is being lined up for the England under 21 manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, stoke giiford red said: I've heard from a reliable source that SC is being lined up for the England under 21 manager If you mean he was being interviewed for the post, it isn't exactly the best kept secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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