Six nations

[chipdawg]

I think Ireland perhaps watched what Italy did against England and realised that this is an England side that struggles to adapt if 'Plan A' isn't working and played a brilliantly disruptive game. Tackled like beasts, controlled the break down and didn't let England get any momentum beyond the gain line. I think it's fair to say that England didn't turn up, but a big part of that was because Ireland didn't give them a sniff. I was hoping that's ireland would regret leaving so many points out there in the first half, but they deserved the win from any angle in my opinion. The Scotland game gave an indication of where England could be, I think the Ireland game was more of an indication of where they are. 

As for that France v Wales debacle, it was just another episode in 'Why On Earth Is Wayne Barnes A Top-Level Referee'. He's awful, has been for years and he always seeks to make himself the centre of attention through crappy calls- especially at the scrum. France should have had a penalty try about 15 minutes before they scored, but even in that sequence there were some highly questionable penalties given against the Welsh. Utter madness

The replacing of the replacement by France was in my eyes utterly disgusting- I can't see how it's any different to 'bloodgate' but no one seems to be anywhere near as incensed by it. France probably deserved the win all things considered, but by the end of that game I no longer cared  

[MichaelRobartes]

7 hours ago, chipdawg said:

I think Ireland perhaps watched what Italy did against England and realised that this is an England side that struggles to adapt if 'Plan A' isn't working and played a brilliantly disruptive game. Tackled like beasts, controlled the break down and didn't let England get any momentum beyond the gain line. I think it's fair to say that England didn't turn up, but a big part of that was because Ireland didn't give them a sniff. I was hoping that's ireland would regret leaving so many points out there in the first half, but they deserved the win from any angle in my opinion. The Scotland game gave an indication of where England could be, I think the Ireland game was more of an indication of where they are. 

As for that France v Wales debacle, it was just another episode in 'Why On Earth Is Wayne Barnes A Top-Level Referee'. He's awful, has been for years and he always seeks to make himself the centre of attention through crappy calls- especially at the scrum. France should have had a penalty try about 15 minutes before they scored, but even in that sequence there were some highly questionable penalties given against the Welsh. Utter madness

The replacing of the replacement by France was in my eyes utterly disgusting- I can't see how it's any different to 'bloodgate' but no one seems to be anywhere near as incensed by it. France probably deserved the win all things considered, but by the end of that game I no longer cared  

A very fair summary all round Chipdawg. We won the collisions and had a solid set piece which goes a long way. We left points out there first half but thankfully it was enough.

Agree with all points on the France Wales fiasco bar that I've been a fan of Barnes previously, no doubt that he lost control on Saturday though. France have big questions to answer over Slimani. If proven then no different to bloodgate as it totally undermines the medical procedures which are of course in place for very good reasons.

[chipdawg]

9 hours ago, MichaelRobartes said:

A very fair summary all round Chipdawg. We won the collisions and had a solid set piece which goes a long way. We left points out there first half but thankfully it was enough.

Agree with all points on the France Wales fiasco bar that I've been a fan of Barnes previously, no doubt that he lost control on Saturday though. France have big questions to answer over Slimani. If proven then no different to bloodgate as it totally undermines the medical procedures which are of course in place for very good reasons.

I think (as I did when the team was announced) that England should have played Nowell over Watson. Nowell is nowhere near as flashy as Watson (who I rate but had a bad game), but he's a ball-hound, tackles hard and is good at winning ball at the breakdown. Those were all things that Ireland were great at and while I don't think one player would have made England better than Ireland on the day, the margin of victory was small enough that we might have stolen it. Ah well, it's probably a good lesson learned for a young team

I've always hated Barnes, the way he refs scrums infuriates me. He never seems in control of them and the players never seem to know what's expected of them. I also find him inconsistent at the breakdown, though that's a criticism I could level at pretty much any test referee. I guess it's much easier to spot players off their feet or hands in a ruck from my living room through the zoom lens on a tv camera! 

There's no way to prove France cheated and the IRU will want to protect the head injury assessment protocol so nothing will come of it, but they gained a big advantage at a critical time. There's no question in my mind that they bent the rules and given the potential severity of head injuries, I think that's pretty crappy

[MichaelRobartes]

England have some very good back three players now for sure, but - like Ireland - I'm not convinced you're getting the most out of them. As solid as Brown usually is, I think England are missing a trick by not playing Alex Goode or Daly at full back in the same way that Wales are by not playing Liam Williams there and we have been by persisting with Kearney over Payne or Zebo. If England moved Daly there you could have Nowell and Watson on the wings too.

Haha, you'll want to be sending Ian Keatley chocolates and flowers then:

My most-disliked ref has always been Poite because he hates Munster, thought he redeemed himself a bit with the "I'm a ref, not a coach" comment. 

It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. France could be in the shit if they haven't followed all the HIA protocols correctly (no evidence that they have to my knowledge, but if it was a set up then there may have been errors). No argument from me on that, you're spot on.

[chipdawg]

6 minutes ago, MichaelRobartes said:

England have some very good back three players now for sure, but - like Ireland - I'm not convinced you're getting the most out of them. As solid as Brown usually is, I think England are missing a trick by not playing Alex Goode or Daly at full back in the same way that Wales are by not playing Liam Williams there and we have been by persisting with Kearney over Payne or Zebo. If England moved Daly there you could have Nowell and Watson on the wings too.

Haha, you'll want to be sending Ian Keatley chocolates and flowers then:

My most-disliked ref has always been Poite because he hates Munster, thought he redeemed himself a bit with the "I'm a ref, not a coach" comment. 

It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. France could be in the shit if they haven't followed all the HIA protocols correctly (no evidence that they have to my knowledge, but if it was a set up then there may have been errors). No argument from me on that, you're spot on.

Not sure about Daly at fullback, but I agree that Brown has been in decline. But defensively he's solid and he consistently makes metres. I think Nowell and Daly would be an excellent combination on the wings, though I also think Daly may eventually take Josephs place at 13; Daly hasn't quite got JJs raw pace or step, but he's more creative, a better distributor, a better tackler and is much better kicking from hand. Don't know. For a team who've just won 18 on the bounce, there are an awful lot of questions about England! Starting with the captain, as I'd be starting with Jamie George at hooker!

My only criticism of that clip is that Keatley didn't kick it hard enough! 

I don't like Poite because he's not very good, but he just doesn't wind me up like Barnes does! 

I don't suppose anything will happen but I hope the authorities look long and hard at it. I personally think in those circumstances France should have been forced to take a free kick rather than contest a scrum as that would nullify any advantage they might gain. If the head injuries' genuine, tough luck

[MichaelRobartes]

2 hours ago, chipdawg said:

Not sure about Daly at fullback, but I agree that Brown has been in decline. But defensively he's solid and he consistently makes metres. I think Nowell and Daly would be an excellent combination on the wings, though I also think Daly may eventually take Josephs place at 13; Daly hasn't quite got JJs raw pace or step, but he's more creative, a better distributor, a better tackler and is much better kicking from hand. Don't know. For a team who've just won 18 on the bounce, there are an awful lot of questions about England! Starting with the captain, as I'd be starting with Jamie George at hooker!

My only criticism of that clip is that Keatley didn't kick it hard enough! 

I don't like Poite because he's not very good, but he just doesn't wind me up like Barnes does! 

I don't suppose anything will happen but I hope the authorities look long and hard at it. I personally think in those circumstances France should have been forced to take a free kick rather than contest a scrum as that would nullify any advantage they might gain. If the head injuries' genuine, tough luck

It's not so much that Brown has been playing badly, but I think England would get more out of their backline by picking a more attacking player there. I've only seen Daly play at centre and wing, but for me he has all the skills. I think Eddie Jones even said he'd probably end up at full back in the long run, he could be a brilliant player if managed properly. Goode would be a step up as well in my opinion. Totally agree about George, would probably be my starting hooker for the Lions, though Rory had a fine game Saturday I think his powers are waning. No small thing for a 34 year old with over 100 caps, we've been very lucky to have him. If England find an openside and a captain from somewhere then they'll be laughing. It'll be very interesting to see how Sam Underhill gets on at Baff. There might be room for improvement at scrum half as well but that's not much of an issue.

Haha, poor Wayne. Keats didn't look all that apologetic either!

He would if you were a Munster fan, trust me!

I'm sure it'll be reviewed. I'm not in favour of uncontested scrums at all. There was one game earlier this season where Munster were marching Edinburgh's scrum back all game and in the end they had no tighthead so the ref was forced to call uncontested scrums which negated our advantage in the match. It should also be remembered that Wales weren't particularly fussed about bringing Francis back on after Samson Lee got binned either. They only did so when Barnes pretty much told them he had to come back on, so both teams were maybe at it a bit. I think uncontested scrums are bad for the game and if there's a fit specialist on the bench they should come on. You have to assume that most teams want to abide by the rules, and it's hard to give a team the advantage of a penalty then say they can't choose to take a scrum because they've already subbed their props. Especially these days when most teams sub their whole front row with 20-30 minutes left.

[chipdawg]

35 minutes ago, MichaelRobartes said:

It's not so much that Brown has been playing badly, but I think England would get more out of their backline by picking a more attacking player there. I've only seen Daly play at centre and wing, but for me he has all the skills. I think Eddie Jones even said he'd probably end up at full back in the long run, he could be a brilliant player if managed properly. Goode would be a step up as well in my opinion. Totally agree about George, would probably be my starting hooker for the Lions, though Rory had a fine game Saturday I think his powers are waning. No small thing for a 34 year old with over 100 caps, we've been very lucky to have him. If England find an openside and a captain from somewhere then they'll be laughing. It'll be very interesting to see how Sam Underhill gets on at Baff. There might be room for improvement at scrum half as well but that's not much of an issue.

Haha, poor Wayne. Keats didn't look all that apologetic either!

He would if you were a Munster fan, trust me!

I'm sure it'll be reviewed. I'm not in favour of uncontested scrums at all. There was one game earlier this season where Munster were marching Edinburgh's scrum back all game and in the end they had no tighthead so the ref was forced to call uncontested scrums which negated our advantage in the match. It should also be remembered that Wales weren't particularly fussed about bringing Francis back on after Samson Lee got binned either. They only did so when Barnes pretty much told them he had to come back on, so both teams were maybe at it a bit. I think uncontested scrums are bad for the game and if there's a fit specialist on the bench they should come on. You have to assume that most teams want to abide by the rules, and it's hard to give a team the advantage of a penalty then say they can't choose to take a scrum because they've already subbed their props. Especially these days when most teams sub their whole front row with 20-30 minutes left.

I'm not a massive fan of Goode to be honest, I have an impression of him being a bit 'flakey' and I don't really know why. Daly certainly has the ability to play fullback but unless he does so regularly for his club, I wouldn't want to see him there for England- that's a BIG risk in my mind. But we'll see how he develops. It'll be interesting to see what happens with George- i can't see how he can even travel with the lions as he's clearly second choice for England, but then who else is there? Best is still a great player but at 34 is it a good idea for him to go on a Lions tour? I have no doubt he'll go if asked to, but is he shortening his career by doing so? Hartley is fine, but nowhere near as dynamic a ball carrier as George, nor as powerful as Best. Baldwin or Owens? Brown or Ford? I quite like Brown, don't really rate either of the Welsh lads. Not really sure Ireland are even set on a back up hooker are they? Or is Scannnel the anointed one now? I haven't been following everyone's teams as closely as I should do. I think England have some very good back row options but openside is a problem. Part of me likes the idea of training Itoje to play there because he's such an amazing athlete and reads the game well, but realistically he's a lock going forward. As I said, for a team that's had so much success of late, England have a lot of questions to answer 

I agree, but if everyone's suspicions about the French bending the rules are true there wouldn't have been a uncontested scrum, they'd have just kept the replacement on. Dunno, there's a balance to be had but it perhaps isn't there just now

[MichaelRobartes]

38 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

I'm not a massive fan of Goode to be honest, I have an impression of him being a bit 'flakey' and I don't really know why. Daly certainly has the ability to play fullback but unless he does so regularly for his club, I wouldn't want to see him there for England- that's a BIG risk in my mind. But we'll see how he develops. It'll be interesting to see what happens with George- i can't see how he can even travel with the lions as he's clearly second choice for England, but then who else is there? Best is still a great player but at 34 is it a good idea for him to go on a Lions tour? I have no doubt he'll go if asked to, but is he shortening his career by doing so? Hartley is fine, but nowhere near as dynamic a ball carrier as George, nor as powerful as Best. Baldwin or Owens? Brown or Ford? I quite like Brown, don't really rate either of the Welsh lads. Not really sure Ireland are even set on a back up hooker are they? Or is Scannnel the anointed one now? I haven't been following everyone's teams as closely as I should do. I think England have some very good back row options but openside is a problem. Part of me likes the idea of training Itoje to play there because he's such an amazing athlete and reads the game well, but realistically he's a lock going forward. As I said, for a team that's had so much success of late, England have a lot of questions to answer 

I agree, but if everyone's suspicions about the French bending the rules are true there wouldn't have been a uncontested scrum, they'd have just kept the replacement on. Dunno, there's a balance to be had but it perhaps isn't there just now

Daly is good enough to play 13 or 15 imo. Seems a shame to waste him on the wing. Same apllies to Liam Williams really! Ireland moved Henshaw to centre when he'd mostly played fullback to Connacht and the same with Payne, both turned out well enough.

Club form will play a part too. Sarries will be in the mix on both fronts so George will have the opportunity to stake a claim. Hartley is a loose cannon, the last thing you need in NZ. Rory will go I'd say and I think it'll be his international swansong. Ireland are keen on Cronin who is injured but Scannell is the real deal. Very good at lineout, scrum and busy in the loose. Also was Ireland U20 captain. His brother will play 12 for Ireland at some point too. Owens is great around the park but loves a sideways step or two at lineout time. No way he'd get away with it in NZ. I think Fraser Brown is a good player though.

WTTJ's previous point about accomodating Lawes Launchbury and Itoje together makes a lot of sense to me. Itoje had a few hard lessons on Saturday but he's one seriously impressive young man. England have done very well since the WC, those are just a few areas I think they will target yo move to the next level. Nothing is broke, so to speak.

True enough. Barnes has no business ordering someone undergoing an HIA - frivolous or not - back on though. Head injuries are a blight on the game. I really hope no team would abuse the system and I hope France didn't but it's all very suspicious. What a shame we're talking about that rather than the match (which was poor enough).

[chipdawg]

1 hour ago, MichaelRobartes said:

Daly is good enough to play 13 or 15 imo. Seems a shame to waste him on the wing. Same apllies to Liam Williams really! Ireland moved Henshaw to centre when he'd mostly played fullback to Connacht and the same with Payne, both turned out well enough.

Club form will play a part too. Sarries will be in the mix on both fronts so George will have the opportunity to stake a claim. Hartley is a loose cannon, the last thing you need in NZ. Rory will go I'd say and I think it'll be his international swansong. Ireland are keen on Cronin who is injured but Scannell is the real deal. Very good at lineout, scrum and busy in the loose. Also was Ireland U20 captain. His brother will play 12 for Ireland at some point too. Owens is great around the park but loves a sideways step or two at lineout time. No way he'd get away with it in NZ. I think Fraser Brown is a good player though.

WTTJ's previous point about accomodating Lawes Launchbury and Itoje together makes a lot of sense to me. Itoje had a few hard lessons on Saturday but he's one seriously impressive young man. England have done very well since the WC, those are just a few areas I think they will target yo move to the next level. Nothing is broke, so to speak.

True enough. Barnes has no business ordering someone undergoing an HIA - frivolous or not - back on though. Head injuries are a blight on the game. I really hope no team would abuse the system and I hope France didn't but it's all very suspicious. What a shame we're talking about that rather than the match (which was poor enough).

Oh he's definitely good enough, but I'm not sure he'll get the game time at fullback. He plays centre for wasps week in week out though I think, so that's much more realistic. I think moving from full back to centre is a bit easier than vice versa, but the skill set is there

I'm not sure the politics will allow two English hookers to go! Hartley, Best and Owens would be my guess to go; personally I'd take George, Best and Brown. Forgot about Cronin, is he seriously injured? Sounds like Ireland are set at hooker

If everyone was fit I wouldn't play Lawes tbh. I'd like to see Kruis and Launchberry in the second row, Itoje at 6. Or even 7 depending on how our back row options pan out over the next couple of years. Kruis thinks the game better than Launchberry or Lawes and he's good at the lineout

Your absolutely right, Barnes wasn't at fault for allowing the change. Though he should probably have put a stop to things about 10 minutes before the issue arose, so it's still his fault!

[phantom]

Was working in Cardiff yesterday and one of the guys I was with is a part time physio with one of the Principality sides, he was at an event Saturday night and knows Wayne Barnes.

Barnes was saying the French kept chirping away to give a penalty try at the end, but knew that was what they were playing for so he was determined the game would be played to a conclusion

 

As for the "bite" he was convinced George North had done it himself - hence why he reviewed it to the TMO - North has previous for this

[MichaelRobartes]

23 minutes ago, phantom said:

Was working in Cardiff yesterday and one of the guys I was with is a part time physio with one of the Principality sides, he was at an event Saturday night and knows Wayne Barnes.

Barnes was saying the French kept chirping away to give a penalty try at the end, but knew that was what they were playing for so he was determined the game would be played to a conclusion

 

As for the "bite" he was convinced George North had done it himself - hence why he reviewed it to the TMO - North has previous for this

Interesting that. I still think he should have gone under the posts but the talking to the ref is getting worse and it's something I don't want to see.

A few people in the pub said that North bit himself as well. I certainly didn't see an angle that suggested it, but I didn't know he had previous, when was that?

16 hours ago, chipdawg said:

Oh he's definitely good enough, but I'm not sure he'll get the game time at fullback. He plays centre for wasps week in week out though I think, so that's much more realistic. I think moving from full back to centre is a bit easier than vice versa, but the skill set is there

I'm not sure the politics will allow two English hookers to go! Hartley, Best and Owens would be my guess to go; personally I'd take George, Best and Brown. Forgot about Cronin, is he seriously injured? Sounds like Ireland are set at hooker

If everyone was fit I wouldn't play Lawes tbh. I'd like to see Kruis and Launchberry in the second row, Itoje at 6. Or even 7 depending on how our back row options pan out over the next couple of years. Kruis thinks the game better than Launchberry or Lawes and he's good at the lineout

Your absolutely right, Barnes wasn't at fault for allowing the change. Though he should probably have put a stop to things about 10 minutes before the issue arose, so it's still his fault!

I must admit I haven't seen Wasps play much this season. I suppose Jones could put pressure on if he wants him to play full back, it depends how serious he was about Daly playing there long-term for England. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's wearing 15 by the World Cup.

I would probably take George, Best and Owens at this point, though I'd be trying to get the latter to throw straight! Cronin might be back before the end of the season, I think he got injured in mid-January. He's a great guy to bring off the bench because he's so dynamic, but his darts are too iffy for my liking. If Scannell had broken into the Ireland setup a year earlier he might have had a chance of going to NZ. Munster have had terrible injuries to senior hookers so he's only been parachuted in for more than the odd game here and there the last 18 months or so.

Kruis is a good player as well, England are well stocked in the second row. I would probably go with Launchbury and Kruis as well, especially since Lawes covers back row as well off the bench.

He totally lost control, there's no doubt about that. Glad we don't have him for our quarter final, though I'm not sure we're much better off with JP Doyle!

[phantom]

50 minutes ago, MichaelRobartes said:

A few people in the pub said that North bit himself as well. I certainly didn't see an angle that suggested it, but I didn't know he had previous, when was that?

When he played for the Northampton in Heineken cup in 2014 - I'll PM you the info rather than put it in public domain

[phantom]

(All times GMT)

2018 CHAMPIONSHIP

3/4 February
Wales v Scotland, Saturday 2.15pm
France v Ireland, Saturday 4.45pm
Italy v England, Sunday 3.00pm

10/11 February
Ireland v Italy, Saturday 2.15pm
England v Wales, Saturday 4.45pm
Scotland v France, Sunday 3.00pm

23/24 February
France v Italy, Friday 8.00pm*
Ireland v Wales, Saturday 2.15pm
Scotland v England, Saturday 4.45pm

10/11 March
Ireland v Scotland, Saturday 2.15pm
France v England, Saturday 4.45pm
Wales v Italy, Sunday 3.00pm

17 March
Italy v Scotland, Saturday 12.30pm
England v Ireland, Saturday 2.45pm
Wales v France, Saturday 5.00pm

*Venue for this match will be announced at a later stage

2019 CHAMPIONSHIP

1/2 February
France v Wales, Friday 8.00pm
Scotland v Italy, Saturday 2.15pm
Ireland v England, Saturday 4.45pm

9/10 February
Scotland v Ireland, Saturday 2.15pm
Italy v Wales, Saturday 4.45pm
England v France, Sunday 3.00pm

23/24 February
France v Scotland, Saturday 2.15pm
Wales v England, Saturday 4.45pm
Italy v Ireland, Sunday 3.00pm

9/10 March
Scotland v Wales, Saturday 2.15pm
England v Italy, Saturday 4.45pm
Ireland v France, Sunday 3.00pm

16 March
Italy v France, Saturday 12.30pm
Wales v Ireland, Saturday 2.45pm
England v Scotland, Saturday 5.00pm
 

[Lrrr]

Wait for us to be arranged to play away at Cardiff on the day one of the rugby games is on....

[phantom]

This would have been interesting to see!

England's unprecedented joint training session with Wales had "a bit of an edge" and was "massively beneficial", says scrum coach Neal Hatley.

English and Welsh forwards trained behind closed doors in Bristol on Monday in preparation for their respective autumn internationals.

England play Argentina at 15:00 GMT at Twickenham on Saturday, with Wales facing Australia in Cardiff at 17:15.

"This was about getting ready for Argentina," Hatley told BBC Sport.

"I don't think you can say who won, today wasn't about winning," he added.

• Fit-again Elliot Daly rejoins England squad

"Sessions like this have a tendency to develop into a bit of a bundle but it was well managed. We want to make sure even when we scrummage amongst ourselves there's an edge.

"We are pleased with what we did, probably on 80% of our ball, and on their ball. It was a good session. It forces you to grow. If people know what you're doing you have to keep finding the next edge."

Wales and England completed 12 scrums and 16 line-outs over 40 minutes to hone their set-pieces.

"There was a good bit of bite to it," England lock George Kruis told BBC Sport.

"Nothing boiled over but there's a lot of history between us and we definitely got the most out of it.

"Our main focus was getting better as a pack for this weekend. It was definitely worthwhile."

World Cup 2015 final referee Nigel Owens, who officiated the session. said it was a "pretty even contest".

"They were full-on, competitive scrums you would see in an England and Wales Six Nations match," said Owens.

"On a couple of scrums England were quite strong and then Wales were quite strong, so it was evenly contested.

"They play hard and fair when they go out on the field and they did exactly the same today."