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Eddie Hitler

By Eddie Hitler
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BS4 on Tour...

BS4 on Tour...

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Miah Dennehy said:

They lost out to Wigan, and when you consider what Wigan went onto, it really does make you wonder what could have been.

Not sure Bath lost out to Wigan.

In 1978 Wigan finished second to Boston in the Northern Premier League but Boston's ground wasn't deemed suitable for league football so Wigan were put forward for election to the football league up against Southport in the voting system and they were voted in at Southport's expense. Would there have been another earlier round of voting that year in which Bath lost out?

I don't really know how that all worked back then...

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David Brent

David Brent

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Not sure Bath lost out to Wigan.

In 1978 Wigan finished second to Boston in the Northern Premier League but Boston's ground wasn't deemed suitable for league football so Wigan were put forward for election to the football league up against Southport in the voting system and they were voted in at Southport's expense. Would there have been another earlier round of voting that year in which Bath lost out?

I don't really know how that all worked back then...

I wasn't sure either but have a look here -

http://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/NonLeagueTables/NPL1977-78.htm

 

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BS4 on Tour...

BS4 on Tour...

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Libertine1 said:

I wasn't sure either but have a look here -

http://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/NonLeagueTables/NPL1977-78.htm

 

Thanks for this - interesting stuff. So Wigan went up after a second ballot against Southport and Bath must have missed out in the first ballot. So we were both sort of correct @Miah Dennehy 

Thanks for clarifying @Libertine1

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TV Tom

TV Tom

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, 22A said:

Scarborough. On the last day of one particular season they thought they had stayed up and fans & players were celebrating on the pitch with that day's visiting fans. Then the news came through that Jimmy Glass a goalie on loan had scored for Carlisle in the 96th minute meaning Carlisle remained in the League and Scarborough were back in the Conference. Cheers literally turned to tears.

Lincolnshire has been badly hit with relegation out of the League; Boston, Lincoln & Grimsby leaving just Scunny with unbroken League membership.

Devon has seen Exeter and Torquay relegated and come back up, although Torquay were relegated again.

Cumbrian teams have had it tough as well with Barrow, Workington and Carlisle all dropping out

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Mike Hunt-Hertz

Mike Hunt-Hertz

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Since the old closed shop of the bottom club in Division 4 applying for re-election and getting it there has been a decent amount of movement between the league and the non-league, and yes I know that Rovers are amongst that but it's not a Rovers-bashing thread.  From interest I've had a first go at these, though I am not Statto incarnate so please feel free to amend, taking any club that has been in non-league since the war as a rule of thumb:

Div 1

None that I can see.

Div 2

  1. Burton
  2. Wigan

Div 3

  1. Rovers
  2. Oxford
  3. MK Dons
  4. Wimbledon
  5. Shrewsbury

Div 4

  1. Exeter
  2. Luton
  3. Wycombe
  4. Barnet
  5. Morecambe
  6. Yeovil
  7. Cheltenham
  8. Accrington Stanley
  9. Crawley

Probably loads more in Div 4, I don't know it that well.  So that's 16 out of 92, or nearly a fifth of teams that have done their time outside the league proper.

 

Fleetwood

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Bianconeri

Bianconeri

Posted
Posted

Simon Inglis's excellent book on the Football League and the men who made it covers the old re-election system in some detail. The book's about 30 years old now but a good read.

Bath just lost out to Wimbledon in 1977 and Minehead were also in the mix! Bath were also top non-leaguers in 1985. Yeovil, of course, missed out a number of times.

Don't forget Accrington who reformed and came back after 40 years. Darwen, Nelson and Gainsborough were also league clubs once.

first clubs I can remember joining the league were Cambridge ( for Bradford PA), Hereford ( for Barrow) and Wimbledon ( for Workington).

Until the Conference was formed in 1980 there was a bit of a free for all with too many non league clubs applying and splitting the vote. After that there was only team up for election.

Anectdotally Altrincham only lost out in 1980 due to a screw up by two of the delegates.

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22A

22A

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, harrys said:

Cumbrian teams have had it tough as well with Barrow, Workington and Carlisle all dropping out

I didn't think Carlisle had dropped out. Like Hartlepool they are one of those teams who always just managed to stay in.

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forbespm

forbespm

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Northern Red said:

There's some big (in relative terms) clubs in the Vanarama North - Darlington, Stockport, Halifax, plus Boston and Kidderminster who were in the league not that long ago. Plus FC United who get big crowds, Salford and Fylde who are bankrolled, and some traditonal big non league sides like Altrincham (who have 9 points all season and are rooted at the bottom), Nuneaton and Tamworth.

Don,t forget Gloucester city,no ground no money but punching above there weight in the vanarama north.just beat moneybags Salford 3-2 and dark horses for the playoffs after winning there last 4 games

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Miah Dennehy

Miah Dennehy

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Bianconeri said:

Simon Inglis's excellent book on the Football League and the men who made it covers the old re-election system in some detail. The book's about 30 years old now but a good read.

Bath just lost out to Wimbledon in 1977 and Minehead were also in the mix! Bath were also top non-leaguers in 1985. Yeovil, of course, missed out a number of times.

Don't forget Accrington who reformed and came back after 40 years. Darwen, Nelson and Gainsborough were also league clubs once.

first clubs I can remember joining the league were Cambridge ( for Bradford PA), Hereford ( for Barrow) and Wimbledon ( for Workington).

Until the Conference was formed in 1980 there was a bit of a free for all with too many non league clubs applying and splitting the vote. After that there was only team up for election.

Anectdotally Altrincham only lost out in 1980 due to a screw up by two of the delegates.

Despite their record for knocking league teams out of the FA Cup, I can't ever remember Yeovil missing out on a re-election vote- although I stand to be corrected.

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Malago

Malago

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

Despite their record for knocking league teams out of the FA Cup, I can't ever remember Yeovil missing out on a re-election vote- although I stand to be corrected.

"During this period, Yeovil Town applied for election to the Football League on a number of occasions, coming within a few votes of being elected in 1976.[9] In 1979 the Glovers were founder members of the new national non-league division."

It's from Wikipedia Miah, but rings true with my memory.

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Miah Dennehy

Miah Dennehy

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Malago said:

"During this period, Yeovil Town applied for election to the Football League on a number of occasions, coming within a few votes of being elected in 1976.[9] In 1979 the Glovers were founder members of the new national non-league division."

It's from Wikipedia Miah, but rings true with my memory.

Are you questioning my non league credentials!

 

At the time I never really understood how re-election worked (probably because it didn't) but Bath missing out always stuck in my memory, Yeovil doing the same obviously passed me by.

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red10

red10

Posted
Posted
On 12/02/2017 at 20:46, 22A said:

With the other names thrown in, it's now 26 out of 92; 28%. Half of the National League are former Football League clubs, I have included Gateshead in that. They were in the League until about 1960 and Ken Wimshurst had played for them before ending up at AG.

 

Gateshead were replaced by Peterborough in 1960 so there's another club to add to the list

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WessexPest

WessexPest

Posted
Posted

Excellent thread.

If I recall rightly, the first season relegation to the Conference was brought in, Torquay survived because a load of stoppage time was added when a dog ran on the pitch and bit either a player or the ref; I'll need to dig the 87/88 Rothman's out of the loft and check that.

I have huge admiration for fans who go along to watch non-league sides. Melksham Town of the Western League just opened a new ground - their first game was an FA Vase replay against Bristol Manor Farm and over 1200 were there - not bad for a team in step nine of the pyramid.

 

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Bianconeri

Bianconeri

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Miah Dennehy said:

Despite their record for knocking league teams out of the FA Cup, I can't ever remember Yeovil missing out on a re-election vote- although I stand to be corrected.

This is interesting, all the votes back to the start of the League.

http://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3506

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22A

22A

Posted
Posted

Thanks for that link; I used it to look back to 1939. How were votes allocated back then though?  76 votes cast for Div 3 North and 98 for Div 3 South.

I started my interest in football in the 1960's. Then the 44 clubs in Divs 1 & 2 had one vote each. The clubs in Divs 3 & 4 had four votes between them.

Before the Prem was formed, the Div 3 &4 clubs argued they should have equal voting rights and threatened to sue the FL under the Companies Act. At the League AGM, the "big clubs" seemingly went along with this. 24 in Div 4 - 1 vote each (24 votes). 24 in Div 3 - 3 votes each (72 votes). 22 in Div 2 - 6 votes each (132 votes). 22 in Div1 - 12 votes each (264 votes). This at the time seem fair, your vote depended on which division you were in. Clubs outside Div 1 had just gained approval so that those 22 could (provided they all voted the same way) outvote the other 70 League members. Given that power the first thing they proposed and voted in was each club keep all it's own gate receipts. Until them the home club kept the majority of the gate money, but some went to the visitors as their fans had contributed to the gate. Another portion went into the League's central fund. At the end of the season that fund was divided 92 EQUAL ways. If 100 extra turned up to watch Hartlepool, that helped Man U. If 1,000 extra turned up to watch Liverpool, that helped Exeter. Two years later, the then Division 1 resigned from the League en masse to form a FA controlled Premier League.

North Hartlepools FL 38 re-elected to Division Three (North) Accrington Stanley FL 29 re-elected to Division Three (North)
South Liverpool     LC     5
Scunthorpe & L Utd  ML     4
Burton Town         ML     0
Wigan Athletic      CL     0
South Bristol Rovers FL 45 re-elected to Division Three (South) Walsall FL 36 re-elected to Division Three (South)
Gillingham          SL    15
Chelmsford City     SL     1
Colchester United   SL     1

From those who didn't get in at the 1938 meeting, Colchester & Gillingham were elected in the 1950s when the League increased from 88 to 92 clubs. Burton & Wigan kept going and gained league membership far more recently, yet today they are in the Championship and Wigan have been higher.

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22A

22A

Posted
Posted

Going back to the early days, I didn't realise Stoke were kicked out for 12 months.

1890 Burnley & Notts County re-elected. Sunderland  elected to the Football League Stoke not re-elected

No wonder Walsall fans (and the West Mids Police always seem to have it in for us;

1901 Burton Swifts, Stockport County & Doncaster Rovers all re-elected. Bristol City  elected to Division Two Walsall Town Swifts not re-elected

There were some oddities though;

1892 The Football League decided to increase the number of clubs in the First Division from 14 to 16 and to create a Second Division. First it held elections for the extra places in the First Division. West Bromwich Albion were excused having to seek re-election because they had just won the FA Cup. Liverpool --     rejected because "they did not comply with regulations"

1903Bradford City -- 30 elected to Division Two Bradford City were elected to the Football League without having played a competitive match. West Yorkshire remained a strongly Rugby League area and it is assumed that City's election was an attempt by the Football League to establish a foothold in this area.
 

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Miah Dennehy

Miah Dennehy

Posted
Posted
On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 07:22, Bianconeri said:

This is interesting, all the votes back to the start of the League.

http://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3506

That's brilliant- how on earth did you find that! I knew e had to seek re-election in the 30s, although I thought it was at the beginning of the decade- it only delayed the inevitable!

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Miah Dennehy

Miah Dennehy

Posted
Posted
On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 03:08, AzerbaijanApeman said:

Excellent thread.

If I recall rightly, the first season relegation to the Conference was brought in, Torquay survived because a load of stoppage time was added when a dog ran on the pitch and bit either a player or the ref; I'll need to dig the 87/88 Rothman's out of the loft and check that.

I have huge admiration for fans who go along to watch non-league sides. Melksham Town of the Western League just opened a new ground - their first game was an FA Vase replay against Bristol Manor Farm and over 1200 were there - not bad for a team in step nine of the pyramid.

 

Aww shucks, thank you :)

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Bianconeri

Bianconeri

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

That's brilliant- how on earth did you find that! I knew e had to seek re-election in the 30s, although I thought it was at the beginning of the decade- it only delayed the inevitable!

Honestly can't remember when I found it but I have a thing about football history and the way the pyramid developed. The stats about football are fascinating, not the '10 passes, ran 8k' computer fare but the real, how many, how often, where, what and how stuff that underpins the game. There used to be a statistician's delight of a site run by the late, great Tony Kempster and I spent too many hours looking at it.

The pyramid only works if we nurture and culivate the base layers, hence the unhealthy interest in UK non-league

 

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finbarr_in_z

finbarr_in_z

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, finbarr_in_z said:

Stole another club's existance, so never non-league. 

Mind you in that town the senior club for a very long time was AFC Wolverton, who had the longest name ever in English football (I'll look it up sometime).

 

Here you go:-

Newport Pagnell and Wolverton London & North Western Railway Amalgamated Association Football Club

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