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One up front at home to Burton


Major Isewater

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Let's face it everything that is being said you could say about any other game - bizarre tactics, strange selections and we wonder why the team play with a lack of tempo and desire. The players are not "playing for him" and they are just going through the motions... There is no consistency of any shape or form.. I really cannot believe how inept this clown is. What is staggering is that the powers that be think he can turn it around. They are deluded. There is no evidence that he can and he has lost his own "cup final". Yet, unbelievably, he remains. Is he banging the Lansdowns? What is his hold over the club... By next weekend we will be adrift at the bottom as the other sides keep picking up points.. WTF is the criteria to be sacked.... I think the club are taking the piss now...

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2 hours ago, 1953 said:

Ok.... so this was an attacking side? Tomlin, Wilbrahim and Reid have 15 goals between them. Taylor, sat on the bench, had 21 this season, albeit mostly in league 1. How can you expect to win matches without a recognised goalscorer on the pitch. Incidentally, Taylor never missed a penalty for Rovers.

Has missed one that I can remember but generally you are right he did not tend to miss them

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2 hours ago, nickolas said:

But this is because we are chasing the game and resorting to lumping it. 

Play two up, get the game won and see it out. Yes, we dont see games out i know but panic football near the end cannot constitute saying two up top doesnt work. 

Chasing the game? It was 0-0, the same score as at kick off. We are shit with one up front and shit with two up front. 

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1 hour ago, BanburyRed said:

So I think we're all agreed that LJ's team formations are baffling, and the bloody tombola must be due a service at some point, and therefore he's going to have a pick a team based on?  What he sees? What he's told?  What he knows?  Either by the coaches or his Dad or whoever............

On the basis that today was (really) a 'must win' game, only playing one up front seems defeatist before the game kicks off.....must've made Burton smile.  Playing one up front and expecting midfield runners to go up AND beyond the lone striker - have we done that all season??  Have we got the players that are intelligent enough and more importantly, disciplined enough to know how to do it and when to do it?

I, like a lot of other Reds, don't understand bringing in Djuric and then the fuss over poaching MT from the Gas and then not really playing either, yet Giefer comes in in goal and almost immediately replaces Fielding?  We don't have any conventional fullbacks but seem unable to play 3 at the back without adequate protection in front, which is where Hegeler might come in but he's not playing?

Joe Bryan seems to completely spilt fan opinion with most saying that he's a centre midfielder, not a wing back - but LJ doesn't seem to recognise this? So, assuming Giefer is in goal, Flint, Magnusson and Wright play back 3, JB plays in CM, with a licence to get forward and support a lone striker, we need 2 wing backs to provide some width but more importantly pace, so O'Dowda on one side and Cotterill on the other?  Thus, if Hegeler plays in midfield this leaves one empty space - who do we think takes it? GoN, Smith, Pack?

LJ doesn't seem to know, hence his constant chopping and changing of the team, delaying subs etc.

Today was tailormade for 3-5-2, pace, width, attacking intent, get in front, stay in front, then consolidate for a win, but he seems unable to inspire, motivate the team to do the necessary.  He simply has to go.  There is no reason why we aren't comfortably midtable with this squad, already safe and looking forward to next season with an eye to strengthening the squad further.  Instead, the trapdoor is well and truly open and we've put one foot on a rickety step ladder down to League One.  Sad.

Sorry, no, we're not all agreed.  I thought the line-up today was perfectly credible, and it's what served us well earlier in the season (though we missed Tammy of course).  You cannot put it all down to formations.  The formation today led us to 21 attempts at goal, seven on target.  We did not play badly.  The formation did not lead to Wilbs goal being disallowed, nor to the penalty miss; nor the Burton clearances.  There is no real difference between 3-4-2-1 and 3-5-2, and Taylor looked no more dangerous than Reid or Tomlin.  THE FORMATION IS A RED HERRING.  It is not why we failed to win today.

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2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Chasing the game? It was 0-0, the same score as at kick off. We are shit with one up front and shit with two up front. 

Didnt mean chasing this game. Its the same for other games i meant. 

We are better with two up. However its wingers and full backs that are the issue this season. Playing so narrow, no width or pace going forward. Equally, so narrow in defence getting slaughtered on the wings every week.lucky not to concede a couple today from being cut open out wide. 

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2 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Sorry, no, we're not all agreed.  I thought the line-up today was perfectly credible, and it's what served us well earlier in the season (though we missed Tammy of course).  You cannot put it all down to formations.  The formation today led us to 21 attempts at goal, seven on target.  We did not play badly.  The formation did not lead to Wilbs goal being disallowed, nor to the penalty miss; nor the Burton clearances.  There is no real difference between 3-4-2-1 and 3-5-2, and Taylor looked no more dangerous than Reid or Tomlin.  THE FORMATION IS A RED HERRING.  It is not why we failed to win today.

Are you saying that we were playing with 3 at the back earlier in the season or am i misreading? As we never played with 3 centre backs when we were getting results early on, it was 4-2-3-1.

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1 hour ago, MarkRed! said:

Let's face it everything that is being said you could say about any other game - bizarre tactics, strange selections and we wonder why the team play with a lack of tempo and desire. The players are not "playing for him" and they are just going through the motions... There is no consistency of any shape or form.. I really cannot believe how inept this clown is. What is staggering is that the powers that be think he can turn it around. They are deluded. There is no evidence that he can and he has lost his own "cup final". Yet, unbelievably, he remains. Is he banging the Lansdowns? What is his hold over the club... By next weekend we will be adrift at the bottom as the other sides keep picking up points.. WTF is the criteria to be sacked.... I think the club are taking the piss now...

Yes, but you assume that all this is right.  I would argue that almost none of it is.  There were no bizarre tactics, nor any strange selections, nor did I see a team lacking  either tempo or desire.  I don't know if Johnson (or anyone) can turn thus around, but I'm damn sure that I saw a decent side trying today, albeit with a fragile mentality,a compete lack of confidence and (perhaps because that, for after all they say that you make you own luck) no luck whatsoever.

What you are saying above is tantamount to 'fake news'.  You expound theories which are repeated ad nauseam by others, and so you assume that everyone agrees with you.  But I don't.  I don't know that today's failure to win was anything to do with selection or formation or tactics.  I think it was down to a side which simply has stopped believing in itself, and is almost too frightened to succeed.  Why we have got to that point is the interesting question.  It may be Johnson; it may be the coaching staff; it may be the players; or any combination of a number of things, but I believe that group of players should be good enough.  I think this is a very unusual season, and I do not think that the usual 'easy' theories work.  And because of that, I really don't know what the answer is.

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10 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Are you saying that we were playing with 3 at the back earlier in the season or am i misreading? As we never played with 3 centre backs when we were getting results early on, it was 4-2-3-1.

Formations change during matches.  Bailey Wright was playing as an orthodox right back for a lot of the second half.  When Bryan tackled back we had a back four or even five.  My point is that we did not fail to win today because of the formation.

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2 hours ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

one up top is a subtle way of indicating "DO NOT LOSE". Two up top is an indication of "MUST WIN". The moment LJ blinked we were screwed

Unfortunately he blinked as soon as he was out of the womb.

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10 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I'd love us to have a genuine debate about what has gone wrong

10 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I wish I knew what has gone wrong, but one thing I'm pretty sure about is that the manager is only one factor in what I suspect is a very complicated equation.  

10 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Cardiff didn't start the season looking like promotion contenders.  What has happened to us is significantly different to Cardiff.  We started well and have fallen apart, but even then without being taken to pieces by opponents.  I genuinely think that this may be the strangest season I can remember (and I've been watching City for over 50 years) and I don't think that the usual simplistic tendency to blame the manager alone cuts it.  And if you don't know what he problem is, how can you find the solution?

Don't get me wrong, I feel as desperate as anyone.  But what makes me most desperate is that I think we have a good squad of players who have shown they can compete with anyone in the division, but we simply can't win games.  The more I think about it the more it looks psychological, and maybe that is the manager fault, but I don't see what us being done about it,

So let's have a genuine debate then.

We didn't start the season looking like promotion contenders. We turned around a game at home to Wigan, struggled through a game at Wycombe, and were second best to Burton before winning in the last minute. At Norwich we lost but actually played okay against an ex-Premiership team, but that was largely because Kodjia kept running at them and was an outlet for us, pace and ability we have badly missed. Villa were Villa of that time. The only period we looked convincing was one week against Fulham and a Leeds team that hadn't really got going yet.

It's amazing people keep clinging to a defence of this team that there was promotion form that can be rediscovered. The only difference at the start of the season is that Tammy went on an incredible goalscoring streak and was an unknown quantity - those goals made us look a better team than we were (to my eyes Johnson was employing a new approach right from the start of the season and we were significantly worse and less clear on our roles than the football we finished last season playing). All that needed to happen is for teams to mark Tammy out of it.

From then on we struggled. If we couldn't get the ball to Tammy in goalscoring positions, we really didn't have alternatives. Our new "style" was compact and building through the middle. Without being able to feed Tammy to great effect or get players up alongside him, we ran out of ideas. Goals came from long distance (Freeman, Tomlin) or when we got Wilbraham onto the pitch up with him. Whichever way you cut it, our two wins and the only times that we scored more than once in the first two months of our terrible run, were with Wilbraham on the pitch.

Johnson's reaction to this was to ignore the evidence on the pitch of the failure of his tactics and start continually tinkering with the personnel, expecting different outcomes (I think last week was the first time we played the same 11 two games running since the week we beat Fulham and Leeds). This implicit insistence that his game-plan was right but players wrong, increasingly to my eyes challenged a succession of players to get drafted in and out of the team seemingly randomly, asked to make a silk purse out of sow's ear. Unsurprisingly none of them could.

This routine of cycling through players like some sort of audition process (and sometimes and unprecedentedly publicly stating players as not up to it) in my opinion destroyed any remaining confidence and togetherness that had been built from the prior promotion squad. Our record signing first went walkabout, playing where he wanted on the pitch to over-compensate for limited attacking strategy. This expensive liability rightly saw him dropped, with predictable consequences first of dissent then fitness. I've no doubt he got in the ear of various other players on "time out" on the bench. 

Unsurprisingly self-belief drained from the team. The "style" of football didn't change much and if anything got progressively more laboured. Compact with no pace, pass around at the back, where's Tammy, punt upfield. If we got players forward (and it was rarely the full backs) we generally had no one to pass to, resulting in speculative 25 yard shots, which excited our shots-counter statisticians but rarely the opposition. Freeman was scapegoated for his lack of end product on the ball despite being the only player since Kodjia that could actually retain the ball in attacking positions. 

And when your football continually isn't working and there is nothing to do but punt the ball at the opposition or take low probability pot-shots, the ball will start coming back at you. A lot. And so opponents started smelling blood. Our full backs have been absolutely awful at standing off (Joe Bryan is still doing it now) but when you're drilled to slow it down so much in possession, it's not surprising the tempo is so poor and hesitant off the ball too. When given the chance, the opposition only needed to play with pace and purpose to open us up. Even Fleetwood did it at Ashton Gate.

Preston at home was a microcosm of the way City were going - a number of people rightly said it was when the alarm went off. 15 minutes of endeavour to get the ball to Tammy and then carved to pieces by width and pace from the opposition. Three months on from clubs adjusting to Tammy and Johnson still had no answer. Perm any 2 or 3 central midfielders from 5 each week and assume failure any of them to create was one of personnel. Rinse and repeat. The only thing we knew for certain from fleeting cameos is that an unfit and scorned Tomlin was no longer the answer to anything.

At our lowest ebb in January Johnson then started even toying with 3-5-2 / 3-5-1-1 and wing backs. By now, players to my eyes universally lost confidence in the game plan and as is well documented, did not believe in their own football enough to see out games. Johnson's reaction having now experimented with everything else, was to speak out about the players and sign new ones. This proved a fillip at Derby (and Cotterill solved our chronic lack of width and direct running since Kodjia/Freeman) but we've already since reverted to type of sign players, plays for a few games then disappear for weeks

Don't know what the problem is? Really?

  • Seven months and still doesn't know our best 11 
  • Seven months and still doesn't know our best formation
  • Seven months and not a single player has improved
  • Seven months and only Cotterill can cross a ball
  • Seven months and when presented the ball in midfield our players have zero idea what to do with it
  • Seven months and doesn't know if Joe Bryan is a left back or a left winger
  • Seven months and none of our players moving or knowing where to move
  • Seven months and frankly schoolboy passing at times
  • Seven months and still standing off opponents when they're on the ball 
  • Seven months and zero pace or idea how to break at speed besides punting downfield
  • Seven months and no real plan B to Tammy Abraham (if Wilbraham is plan B, he's forgotten the question)

I could go on.

You're absolutely right there are psychological problems (good lord we probably all need an exorcist now) but first and foremost, whatever our coaches are doing on the training ground, it certainly isn't helping. I don't care that we had a goal disallowed yesterday, missed a penalty and had a 30 second scramble towards the end. On any measure of coaching, drilled passing, movement, interplay, we were totally outplayed by a Burton side that cost a fraction of ours.

Going back to that complicated equation of yours, we have played with all the variables, and there is only one constant left in all of this.

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Nice work ole, 

I would also place further credence on the transfer policy, in addition to new signings playing for a few games, and then when results miraculously havent improved, they are dropped, and the who gets to play a game competition gets more diluted.

The money we have spent has been unprecedented, but there are millions of pounds worth of players who are dropped/ loaned out/ never playing. Had that money been spent on players for the here and now, clearly a gk and full backs are in my mind, that may have helped, rather than buying players to stockpile for a future that isnt going to come. To be fair though, with what has happened this season, im not sure that any new fb or gk would have made much difference. What has happened is an absolute joke, and its staggering that this has been allowed to continue. The owner, board and manager fully deserve what is going to happen.

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While the mention of formations does have an impact, I noticed it did change a few times over the course of the 90 minutes.

But more importantly, there was a lack of positional intelligence on the pitch from the midfield upwards. When width was needed, it wasn't there and when close support was needed up top, they were not within close proximity to each other.

Having that positional awareness and reading of the game is so crucial to modern football. You can have all the skill and speed but it's no good if the opposition can read exactly what you're going to do. Burton's defence was awful, but our lack of creativity meant they had Jack all to do most of the game. But they were there for the taking.

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@Olé - Absolutely nailed it, mate.

We are where we are due to a combination of factors, but the most significant and influential of these fall at the feet of our coaching staff, and you've articulated them perfectly.

It's not about not winning one key game; it's about being placed in the position over 34 games where Burton at home is a vital game to avoid dropping into the relegation zone.  And we can't win that.

We are in deep, deep trouble; we might not even stay up now if we change head coach, but I feel we will almost certainly end up relegated with who we currently have.

SL said it would go "to the wire"; what an awfully prophetic and utterly bleak prediction to have made.  But if he continues to ignore what is clear to so many others, I think he's absolutely correct.

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"One up front at home to Burton". Several, nay may times this season City have played just one up front, especially at home. Can anyone, especially LJ himself, explain why this tactic was adopted?

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A quite brilliant post @Olé

@Badger - would you ask your husband to read that post please

 

You are wasted Ole in whatever you do career wise

 

 All joking aside ,

that is singularly the best post I've possibly ever read on any football forum

in the way it's written and laid out , how it's explained , and most importantly the content and explanation of your analysis / opinion of what you've seen 

Would not look out of place in a newspaper column 

in simple terms if any person asked what's gone wrong on the field at Bristol City this season I can just get them to read your post - I take my hat off to you

Lee himself would do well to read your post 

I posted during the week that there are football fans around that understand football better than a lot in the professional game that look down their noses at the thought that supporters know what they're on about

I think your point has just proved that and would probably be of a far superior 'product' than any debrief the club has or any review of events by an independent football advisor

 

:clap:

 

Edit

Why don't you e-mail Twentyman with your post Ole

Would make a fantastic basis for a upcoming Sound Of the City programme / debate

 

 

i said last night I 'don't blow smoke up anyones arse'

If this post as seen as doing so that's fine by me :thumbsup:

I prefer to see this as aknowledgeing  something pretty damned excellent - it's certainly not a post that I could have composed in such a way

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@Olé

This my friend is whats it's all about.....i couldn't articulate it, so you have! A champion post my man...:clapping:

I love this forum, not for the agreement of views but for the diversity & breadth of opinion, right or wrong, divided or in unison.....and i hope we never lose that!

OTIB! :city:

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14 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

With all due respect ,we weren't playing one of the best teams in the world but Burton who are terrible on the road .

"Burton are a decent side and we didn't want to over-commit up front and risk being caught on the counter..."

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15 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

LJ calls that an attacking side !

Twentyman was discreetly flummoxed at that . He mentioned it once or twice as a good reason why we didn't win .

This is Burton who have an appalling away record ,injuries to their best players and Under pressure to avoiding being leapfrogged by us.

I know nothing about football but will be sending my CV to Lansdown this weekend .

Is it just me who thinks that even 20person is getting peed of with LJ's tactics. 

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13 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Of course i wonder, but I've been a manager myself for a long time, and I've had staff not want to work for me because they didn't like what I was trying to do, but ultimately they were wrong and I was right.  This will sound ridiculous, but maybe he just doesn't have physical stature to cut it.

Complete and utter b ollocks To suggest his total fail is down to being a shortarse and trying to use your own experience as a "manager" who was "right" as a comparable situation.

Can I have a gram of whatever you're on ?

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I've never considered myself a tactical genius, but LJ makes me feel a lot better about my abilities. Maybe I'll submit my CV...

We mustn't forget that we have a lot of good players in the squad, but none of them are playing anywhere close to their potential. We also have a few who aren't good enough, but even those are playing poorly, by their own standards.

We aren't a huge club with a glittering history. However, we shouldn't be afraid of playing Burton Albion at home. The way the team was set up suggested that we were. The way they played confirmed this.

We have bought some good players, who seem to have been dragged down to the level of the others.

Whose fault is that?

#JOHNSONOUTNOW

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3 hours ago, Olé said:

So let's have a genuine debate then.

We didn't start the season looking like promotion contenders. We turned around a game at home to Wigan, struggled through a game at Wycombe, and were second best to Burton before winning in the last minute. At Norwich we lost but actually played okay against an ex-Premiership team, but that was largely because Kodjia kept running at them and was an outlet for us, pace and ability we have badly missed. Villa were Villa of that time. The only period we looked convincing was one week against Fulham and a Leeds team that hadn't really got going yet.

It's amazing people keep clinging to a defence of this team that there was promotion form that can be rediscovered. The only difference at the start of the season is that Tammy went on an incredible goalscoring streak and was an unknown quantity - those goals made us look a better team than we were (to my eyes Johnson was employing a new approach right from the start of the season and we were significantly worse and less clear on our roles than the football we finished last season playing). All that needed to happen is for teams to mark Tammy out of it.

From then on we struggled. If we couldn't get the ball to Tammy in goalscoring positions, we really didn't have alternatives. Our new "style" was compact and building through the middle. Without being able to feed Tammy to great effect or get players up alongside him, we ran out of ideas. Goals came from long distance (Freeman, Tomlin) or when we got Wilbraham onto the pitch up with him. Whichever way you cut it, our two wins and the only times that we scored more than once in the first two months of our terrible run, were with Wilbraham on the pitch.

Johnson's reaction to this was to ignore the evidence on the pitch of the failure of his tactics and start continually tinkering with the personnel, expecting different outcomes (I think last week was the first time we played the same 11 two games running since the week we beat Fulham and Leeds). This implicit insistence that his game-plan was right but players wrong, increasingly to my eyes challenged a succession of players to get drafted in and out of the team seemingly randomly, asked to make a silk purse out of sow's ear. Unsurprisingly none of them could.

This routine of cycling through players like some sort of audition process (and sometimes and unprecedentedly publicly stating players as not up to it) in my opinion destroyed any remaining confidence and togetherness that had been built from the prior promotion squad. Our record signing first went walkabout, playing where he wanted on the pitch to over-compensate for limited attacking strategy. This expensive liability rightly saw him dropped, with predictable consequences first of dissent then fitness. I've no doubt he got in the ear of various other players on "time out" on the bench. 

Unsurprisingly self-belief drained from the team. The "style" of football didn't change much and if anything got progressively more laboured. Compact with no pace, pass around at the back, where's Tammy, punt upfield. If we got players forward (and it was rarely the full backs) we generally had no one to pass to, resulting in speculative 25 yard shots, which excited our shots-counter statisticians but rarely the opposition. Freeman was scapegoated for his lack of end product on the ball despite being the only player since Kodjia that could actually retain the ball in attacking positions. 

And when your football continually isn't working and there is nothing to do but punt the ball at the opposition or take low probability pot-shots, the ball will start coming back at you. A lot. And so opponents started smelling blood. Our full backs have been absolutely awful at standing off (Joe Bryan is still doing it now) but when you're drilled to slow it down so much in possession, it's not surprising the tempo is so poor and hesitant off the ball too. When given the chance, the opposition only needed to play with pace and purpose to open us up. Even Fleetwood did it at Ashton Gate.

Preston at home was a microcosm of the way City were going - a number of people rightly said it was when the alarm went off. 15 minutes of endeavour to get the ball to Tammy and then carved to pieces by width and pace from the opposition. Three months on from clubs adjusting to Tammy and Johnson still had no answer. Perm any 2 or 3 central midfielders from 5 each week and assume failure any of them to create was one of personnel. Rinse and repeat. The only thing we knew for certain from fleeting cameos is that an unfit and scorned Tomlin was no longer the answer to anything.

At our lowest ebb in January Johnson then started even toying with 3-5-2 / 3-5-1-1 and wing backs. By now, players to my eyes universally lost confidence in the game plan and as is well documented, did not believe in their own football enough to see out games. Johnson's reaction having now experimented with everything else, was to speak out about the players and sign new ones. This proved a fillip at Derby (and Cotterill solved our chronic lack of width and direct running since Kodjia/Freeman) but we've already since reverted to type of sign players, plays for a few games then disappear for weeks

Don't know what the problem is? Really?

  • Seven months and still doesn't know our best 11 
  • Seven months and still doesn't know our best formation
  • Seven months and not a single player has improved
  • Seven months and only Cotterill can cross a ball
  • Seven months and when presented the ball in midfield our players have zero idea what to do with it
  • Seven months and doesn't know if Joe Bryan is a left back or a left winger
  • Seven months and none of our players moving or knowing where to move
  • Seven months and frankly schoolboy passing at times
  • Seven months and still standing off opponents when they're on the ball 
  • Seven months and zero pace or idea how to break at speed besides punting downfield
  • Seven months and no real plan B to Tammy Abraham (if Wilbraham is plan B, he's forgotten the question)

I could go on.

You're absolutely right there are psychological problems (good lord we probably all need an exorcist now) but first and foremost, whatever our coaches are doing on the training ground, it certainly isn't helping. I don't care that we had a goal disallowed yesterday, missed a penalty and had a 30 second scramble towards the end. On any measure of coaching, drilled passing, movement, interplay, we were totally outplayed by a Burton side that cost a fraction of ours.

Going back to that complicated equation of yours, we have played with all the variables, and there is only one constant left in all of this.

This is pure .

 

I hope Lansdown reads this because you have brilliantly articulated what everyone but him sees .

We've had enough .

PLEASE MR LANSDOWN ACT WHILST WE STILL HAVE A GLIMMER OF HOPE.

 

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15 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

On the screens in the concourses before the match it showed the formation as 3-5-2 with Tomlin up front with Wilbs....

And the Cluedo pieces on Twitter had it as 5221, Reid and Tomlin behind Wilbs, two no10s.  One of those two played very poorly, but put in loads of effort.  The other played really poorly and put in no effort at all.

So the big screens and the twitter feed aren't on the same hymn sheet.....perhaps the head-coach isn't on the same as the players too!

@BobBobSuperBob and @JonDolman - several sensible posts above :clapping:

 

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Unashamedly going to bump this thread in case anyone's missed Ole's post (#46) as the thread has jumped off the front page 

it's worth everyone having a read of IMO

Agreed; was going to do similar.

For all the talk about what's wrong with us, @Olé has calmly and succinctly laid out what I truly believe to be the issues.

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