BristolIsRed Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Genuine question, wondering if anyone puts any blame on the players at all for this? Or is it just Johnson etc? Let's hope this won't start WW3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 No. As an employee you are only as good as the framework and the tools that the company give you . When you join a new company you are highly motivated and eager to impress your new boss . Then you realise he hasn't got a clue . You joined as à bright successful salesman but he put you into the technical and repairs department. It not being your skill set you tried your best but weren't really up to scratch. Your boss criticised you continually and no matter how hard you tried to please him it never did . You started to lose confidence in your abilities and your work performance got worse . Not only that but you saw some of your collègues doing the job that you do best but worse than you and making the company results poor with a risk of closure. Whose fault would it be ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagon Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 There is no way it is all LJ. There is no doubt he has a mass to learn tactically, some of which could be attributed to whoever takes responsibility for opposition analysis. He has also blatantly struggled to find a first 11 and formation. However, as a team, we make massive mistakes on top of missed opportunities and this is down to ability. I don't go in for all this lack of confidence stuff otherwise every team should be thinking they should be competing in the Prem, even the Gas, if it was just down to lack of confidence. So I think it is the players fault aswell in so far as quite a few have a lack of ability to take this club higher and when coupled with poor tactics that is a recipe for disaster. I think a more tactically astute manager could have got some better results out of this group but where do people's expectations of this team think they should be. Mid table at best? Maybe flirting with top 6? If that's the case then we would all no doubt be bemoaning a slight lack of quality and ability rather than the manager. The fact we are where we are suggests to me it's clearly both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady bunch Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Yes, players to blame far more than LJ, but I suspect who I know will get the sack...... Far to many games they have not looked like they are giving their all, LJ keeps insisting he is not instructing them to retreat game after game light frightenned rabbits in the headlights, but that is how they act... I also think our fitness levels are poor, hence we now concede so many late on ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, brady bunch said: Yes, players to blame far more than LJ, but I suspect who I know will get the sack...... Far to many games they have not looked like they are giving their all, LJ keeps insisting he is not instructing them to retreat game after game light frightenned rabbits in the headlights, but that is how they act... I also think our fitness levels are poor, hence we now concede so many late on ... Mainly because he's pissed them off Still crap from the players but root out the cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, BristolIsRed said: Genuine question, wondering if anyone puts any blame on the players at all for this? Or is it just Johnson etc? Let's hope this won't start WW3 Not too much personally. They're still trying, still putting the effort in, just low on confidence. I'd place far more blame on them if either they stopped working as hard during games, or if Johnson played a consistent XI and shape for a while and the errors continued. Whilst they're being actively disorganised by the manager for every match I can't hold them too responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 As the Major says the employees (the players) can only do what their boss (LJ) tells them. Obviously they don't always get it right but different formations almost every game must confuse some of them as does the uncertainty about whether you'd be selectedto play whatever formations it will be next game. I think Flint has been the only constant all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick's Marvels Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Didn't you know? It's Pembo's fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagon Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, Thatch35 said: Yeah..but LJ bought the players...he is a clueless manager ALSO buying players not up to it - So all lies at LJ's door. I think it's pretty safe to say that there are also players from before LJ that play regularly who have not performed to the level needed since being in the championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderingred Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 38 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: No. As an employee you are only as good as the framework and the tools that the company give you . When you join a new company you are highly motivated and eager to impress your new boss . Then you realise he hasn't got a clue . You joined as à bright successful salesman but he put you into the technical and repairs department. It not being your skill set you tried your best but weren't really up to scratch. Your boss criticised you continually and no matter how hard you tried to please him it never did . You started to lose confidence in your abilities and your work performance got worse . Not only that but you saw some of your collègues doing the job that you do best but worse than you and making the company results poor with a risk of closure. Whose fault would it be ? Good analogy and I said much the same in another thread. Working for a management team that have no idea what they are doing is so draining and deflating... And naturally its difficult to perform to the best of your ability. Remember back in August when we were all drooling over the performances of O'Neill? The longer he stayed with us, the worse he got.. The same applies to Hegeler. A month ago he looked a very shrewd buy and really impressed...now people are comparing him ability wise to Marlon Pack! The only bright spark in our team at the moment seems to be Dave Cotterill and its no co-incidence that he's been here the shortest time. The evidence is conclusive imho. Johnsons players werent performing, so he went and signed a whole load more in January... The problem persisted. It doesnt take rocket science to work out the root of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAGa Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 For me, it's the board responsible for the most part. Then the manager and players share the rest of the blame equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Flagon said: I think it's pretty safe to say that there are also players from before LJ that play regularly who have not performed to the level needed since being in the championship. ..... Who are picked ahead of his shiny new signings which if your opinion is in anyway correct, proves what a clueless Head Coach we have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagon Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: ..... Who are picked ahead of his shiny new signings which if your opinion is in anyway correct, proves what a clueless Head Coach we have As I said in my first post, LJ has a mass to learn and another manager may have had more tactical nous to grind out a few more results that would see us safe already. But we cannot overlook that many players lack ability, new and old. Like I said, if we were mid table with this team we would be bemoaning lack of quality and ability. LJ is just another factor in all this, a significant one I'd agree but the sole one, no chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Flagon said: As I said in my first post, LJ has a mass to learn and another manager may have had more tactical nous to grind out a few more results that would see us safe already. But we cannot overlook that many players lack ability, new and old. Like I said, if we were mid table with this team we would be bemoaning lack of quality and ability. LJ is just another factor in all this, a significant one I'd agree but the sole one, no chance So , you are saying , in your opinion most of the players aren't good enough . Including the / some of the new ones Who do you blame that on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Of course the players are to blame, as well as LJ. Players are even coming out saying they are not necessarily putting their instructions in to place, if that's not a great big warning sign, if that's not feeding LJ's comment weeks later of who he can trust, not sure a horse can be led closer to water. How to apportion blame is another matter, something I don't think any of us are in a position to do better than we could shoot fish in a barrel. But there's only ever going to be one fall guy when there are more than one or two bad apples. Of all the talk of DNA and making sure players are personality-wise a good fit for the squad, I think we have failed significantly in this area. LJ spoke of fractions and cliques. Just musing, maybe this is where Des Taylor fell short and lost his job. Maybe this was MA's fault, maybe it's LJ's. Again we just don't know enough about the club's operations to conclude. I don't for one minute believe the sacking of LJ will be the panacea. The club's problems are deeper-rooted. There are other changes which need to be made too. Perhaps DT, JP going are all part of this, perhaps MA should be walking the plank too. I'm not advocating sticking with LJ, if it were my decision he'd have gone long ago, but I think his sacking is taking a plaster to a gunshot wound - it's better than nothing but to heal there are some players that we need to rid ourselves of and I daresay much more in the backroom too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagon Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: So , you are saying , in your opinion most of the players aren't good enough . Including the / some of the new ones Who do you blame that on Yes, before he joined we were also in freefall with a team that comfortably won League One. They were not good enough for the Championship, albeit a truly messed up transfer window. We made a change, got a couple of extra players in and escaped the drop. We have brought some of those back, and added to it. They've not performed as expected. With the mixed message that come out of this club I cannot say 100% that every signing made is down to LJ but don't doubt he'd have a big say. However, the mistakes I've seen this season are unforgivable. How could underhit backpasses, misplaced passes that outfox everyone, sky high penalty taking, open goals be solely LJ. They are in it together. LJ is a massive part of it but just feel that the players have a lot to answer for too. How many times have they come to social media saying we let the fans down, we owe them a good performance etc etc. Have they done that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Flagon said: Yes, before he joined we were also in freefall with a team that comfortably won League One. They were not good enough for the Championship, albeit a truly messed up transfer window. We made a change, got a couple of extra players in and escaped the drop. We have brought some of those back, and added to it. They've not performed as expected. With the mixed message that come out of this club I cannot say 100% that every signing made is down to LJ but don't doubt he'd have a big say. However, the mistakes I've seen this season are unforgivable. How could underhit backpasses, misplaced passes that outfox everyone, sky high penalty taking, open goals be solely LJ. They are in it together. LJ is a massive part of it but just feel that the players have a lot to answer for too. How many times have they come to social media saying we let the fans down, we owe them a good performance etc etc. Have they done that? According to the club he has the final say Also stated that he'd watched the new signings when we were considering them In addition the reason Holden was brought in was to free Johnson up to spend more time on recruitment So ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagon Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said: According to the club he has the final say Also stated that he'd watched the new signings when we were considering them In addition the reason Holden was brought in was to free Johnson up to spend more time on recruitment So ....... He is a significant part of it then as I said and feel. The mistakes though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Flagon said: He is a significant part of it then as I said and feel. The mistakes though...... The mistakes - awful IMHO - Some / many eminate from inability to cope with pressure in instances, lack of confidence , some of which I would strongly suggest comes from general confusion with specific roles / formations / tactical approach The play / set up / tinkering that leads to those errors IMHO is more of a cause , the mistakes are the symptoms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 49 minutes ago, JHAGa said: For me, it's the board responsible for the most part. How so ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collier Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Flagon said: He is a significant part of it then as I said and feel. The mistakes though...... All football teams make mistakes at some point over the course of a season. Most players have a mistake or 2 in them at some point of a season. That does not mean they are not good players. What matters is what comes between those mistakes. Formations, tactics, player positions are the managers responsibility and they have been found wanting a lot more than individual mistakes this season. Most succesfull sides and managers find some happy medium within these responsibilities over the course of the season. We are still scratching around for these things with most of the season gone. Where the blame lies in any of that is at the managers door IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamalagerdrinker Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Yes, but as said above you're only as good as your leader etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagon Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: The mistakes - awful IMHO - Some / many eminate from inability to cope with pressure in instances, lack of confidence , some of which I would strongly suggest comes from general confusion with specific roles / formations / tactical approach The play / set up / tinkering that leads to those errors IMHO is more of a cause , the mistakes are the symptoms Completely agree that LJ tactics would contribute in part. I realise this would be too nit picky but Taylor's open goal miss at Derby?Smith and O'Neil mix up for Brighton's opener? Matthews' suicidal free kick against Fulham? I could go on. When they are out on the pitch they do have some free will. There are also tactical decisons by LJ I could point to aswell. The point being though as per the question posed by the OP I don't feel it is just Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snufflelufagus Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 For me they get off lightly. So many of them get chopped and changed every other week I expect they feel no or little responsibility due to that. So again managers fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Flagon said: Completely agree that LJ tactics would contribute in part. I realise this would be too nit picky but Taylor's open goal miss at Derby?Smith and O'Neil mix up for Brighton's opener? Matthews' suicidal free kick against Fulham? I could go on. When they are out on the pitch they do have some free will. There are also tactical decisons by LJ I could point to aswell. The point being though as per the question posed by the OP I don't feel it is just Johnson. No of course it's not , and you can't blame anyone but the players for the mistakes you've highlighted Happens in any relegation side and is far more noticeable in a struggling side In a side in form and going well , Matthews pass , Taylor's miss , Brightons goal would be far more likely to be inconsequential and we go on to win the game (Think Wade Elliot v MK Dons - how many think or talk about that mistake ) Footballers the world over are also notorious for finding a reason / excuse for poor performances and I think they've been handed a golden one to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAGa Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, BigTone said: How so ? Continuous failure in selecting managers. Continued failure in backing the manager in the transfer market, this season's example being leaving LJ in the lurch by selling Kodjia without a replacement one day before the window closed after our good start to the season. Sacking the one manager that has brought us success after letting him down in the transfer market. Six relegation fights in seven seasons - you have to be short-sighted to genuinely think it's the manager's fault every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, JHAGa said: you have to be short-sighted to genuinely think it's the manager's fault every time. Or living on another planet if you genuinely believe what you say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rag Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Maybe LJ should just try this product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAGa Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, BigTone said: Or living on another planet if you genuinely believe what you say Care to actually provide a counter-argument? You are deluded if you can't see the board's continuous repeated mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, JHAGa said: Care to actually provide a counter-argument? You are deluded if you can't see the board's continuous repeated mistakes. No, I have no need to as to offer a counter argument against complete bollox is a waste of my time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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