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14 hours ago, handsofclay said:

City were 22nd in the table when Johnson was officially appointed. 22nd in the table is in the drop zone!!!! 

Were City still in 22nd place after the Charlton game?

Whether officially appointed or not LJ admitted he played no part whatsoever in the preparation, team selection or tactics for that game.

Pembo's 3 points..

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32 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Were City still in 22nd place after the Charlton game?

Whether officially appointed or not LJ admitted he played no part whatsoever in the preparation, team selection or tactics for that game.

Pembo's 3 points..

He wasnt saying Johnson had anything to do with the win though.

We were in the relegation zone at the time of the appointment of Johnson.

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18 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

He wasnt saying Johnson had anything to do with the win though.

We were in the relegation zone at the time of the appointment of Johnson.

OK, but when LJ took over team affairs, i.e. after the Charlton game, were City in a relegation spot or not?

I really can't remember.

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23 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

OK, but when LJ took over team affairs, i.e. after the Charlton game, were City in a relegation spot or not?

I really can't remember.

Yes, City were in 22nd position after the Charlton win which was when Johnson was officially appointed a couple of days after it.

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4 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Yes, City were in 22nd position after the Charlton win which was when Johnson was officially appointed a couple of days after it.

You can Google LJ appointment Bristol City and the BBC sport article mentions the Charlton win and City being in 22nd place.

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9 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Yes, City were in 22nd position after the Charlton win which was when Johnson was officially appointed a couple of days after it.

Fair enough. Then Pembo had only steadied the ship to set us on an inexorable course to get out of the relegation zone, rather than completing that task himself.

Lucky old LJ, not many managers are afforded the luxury of taking over a reinvigorated, winning team. ;)

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2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Fair enough. Then Pembo had only steadied the ship to set us on an inexorable course to get out of the relegation zone, rather than completing that task himself.

Lucky old LJ, not many managers are afforded the luxury of taking over a reinvigorated, winning team. ;)

Strange, obviously Pemberton did a good job in the period he was caretaker but you can't rewrite history. Ultimately it was LJ that kept us up and he did a good job in the latter part of last season.

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6 hours ago, handsofclay said:

Yes, City were in 22nd position after the Charlton win which was when Johnson was officially appointed a couple of days after it.

No. He was appointed on the day of the Charlton game. http://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/lee-johnson-appointed-new-head-coach-2941479.aspx , Saturday February 6, 2016. 

Here's picture of him, with Mark Ashton, Steve Lansdown, Marina Dolman and Maggie Lansdown watching on at The Valley.

http://tgsphoto.photoshelter.com/image/I0000WMwfVi1H_8E 

And City were in 20th place following the Charlton win. http://www.statto.com/football/teams/bristol-city/2015-2016/results

Its always a good idea to check facts first, just in case you get them wrong.

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6 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Strange, obviously Pemberton did a good job in the period he was caretaker but you can't rewrite history. Ultimately it was LJ that kept us up and he did a good job in the latter part of last season.

Not really strange PF, no one's trying to re write history, but the fact remains the ship had been steadied, and the tide was being turned, by Pembo before LJ took over.

No one would disagree that LJ did a good job in the latter part of last season, mostly by being content not change things too drastically from the solid base Pembo had established.

Much of the hard work - getting the players re-focused from their disappointment at Cotts'. departure, changing the formation, getting a couple of wins for the club under his belt, reinvigorating the players, and getting the club back on an even keel, had been done by Pembo.

It's a great shame Pembo left the club before LJ.

 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

No. He was appointed on the day of the Charlton game. http://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/lee-johnson-appointed-new-head-coach-2941479.aspx , Saturday February 6, 2016. 

Here's picture of him, with Mark Ashton, Steve Lansdown, Marina Dolman and Maggie Lansdown watching on at The Valley.

http://tgsphoto.photoshelter.com/image/I0000WMwfVi1H_8E 

And City were in 20th place following the Charlton win. http://www.statto.com/football/teams/bristol-city/2015-2016/results

Its always a good idea to check facts first, just in case you get them wrong.

But where were City before the Charlton win as it is clear that LJ was appointed before the game took place. I would go with the fact the win against Charlton lifted City from 22nd place above Charlton and into 20th place.

I stated that when LJ was appointed City were in the relegation zone. All you have done is prove where City were after the win against Charlton, but LJ was appointed before it as you prove. So they were in the drop zone when he was appointed as I stated.

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7 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

But where were City before the Charlton win as it is clear that LJ was appointed before the game took place. I would go with the fact the win against Charlton lifted City from 22nd place above Charlton and into 20th place.

I stated that when LJ was appointed City were in the relegation zone. All you have done is prove where City were after the win against Charlton, but LJ was appointed before it as you prove. So they were in the drop zone when he was appointed as I stated.

I asked specifically about this above, and I took you at your word with your assurance.

To repeat myself: Pembo was responsible for team preparation, team selection, formation and tactics for the Charlton game.

He stood in the technical area, made any tactical changes, substitutions etc.

LJ stated he had no say in matters that day.

Those 3 points were down to Pembo, nothing whatsoever to do with Johnson.

So Pembo took City out of the relegation zone, and I can't imagine why you're determined to spin things otherwise.

When LJ took his first training session as City's new coach the club were out of the drop zone.

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40 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

But where were City before the Charlton win as it is clear that LJ was appointed before the game took place. I would go with the fact the win against Charlton lifted City from 22nd place above Charlton and into 20th place.

I stated that when LJ was appointed City were in the relegation zone. All you have done is prove where City were after the win against Charlton, but LJ was appointed before it as you prove. So they were in the drop zone when he was appointed as I stated.

So this isn't you?

7 hours ago, handsofclay said:

Yes, City were in 22nd position after the Charlton win which was when Johnson was officially appointed a couple of days after it.

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3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Not really strange PF, no one's trying to re write history, but the fact remains the ship had been steadied, and the tide was being turned, by Pembo before LJ took over.

It feels a bit like you're trying to discredit LJ's role in our survival and emphasise Pemberton's.

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No one would disagree that LJ did a good job in the latter part of last season, mostly by being content not change things too drastically from the solid base Pembo had established.

Much of the hard work - getting the players re-focused from their disappointment at Cotts'. departure, changing the formation, getting a couple of wins for the club under his belt, reinvigorating the players, and getting the club back on an even keel, had been done by Pembo.

It's a great shame Pembo left the club before LJ.

Most of that is subjective and we've got no way of knowing whether it was Pemberton or LJ who did 'much of the hard work' that led to our survival. Feels like you can't bring yourself to give LJ credit, always has to be a "but Pemberton..." included.

This season is different and in my opinion all three of Pemberton, LJ and Holden should've gone weeks ago, I just think its unfair to try and diminish LJ's achievements from last season.

 

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10 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I asked specifically about this above, and I took you at your word with your assurance.

To repeat myself: Pembo was responsible for team preparation, team selection, formation and tactics for the Charlton game.

He stood in the technical area, made any tactical changes, substitutions etc.

LJ stated he had no say in matters that day.

Those 3 points were down to Pembo, nothing whatsoever to do with Johnson.

So Pembo took City out of the relegation zone, and I can't imagine why you're determined to spin things otherwise.

When LJ took his first training session as City's new coach the club were out of the drop zone.

I answered that when LJ was APPOINTED City were in the drop zone. That is the case. Surely the fact the new manager was in the stands watching City that day and no doubt had had a few words with players etc had an influence on the performance. GJ is often credited with his first day win away at Brentford in exactly the same circumstances.

I used an article from BBC Sport regarding the appointment of LJ, it said that City were in 22nd place after the win against Charlton. Surely I cannot be lambasted for using the BBC as my source. Just Google LJ appointment as Bristol City manager and the BBC Sport article is there to see that I wasn't attempting to mislead.

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3 hours ago, handsofclay said:

I answered that when LJ was APPOINTED City were in the drop zone. That is the case. Surely the fact the new manager was in the stands watching City that day and no doubt had had a few words with players etc had an influence on the performance. GJ is often credited with his first day win away at Brentford in exactly the same circumstances.

I used an article from BBC Sport regarding the appointment of LJ, it said that City were in 22nd place after the win against Charlton. Surely I cannot be lambasted for using the BBC as my source. Just Google LJ appointment as Bristol City manager and the BBC Sport article is there to see that I wasn't attempting 

No. The BBC article says that City moved up to 20th place. m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35447260

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3 hours ago, handsofclay said:

I answered that when LJ was APPOINTED City were in the drop zone. That is the case. Surely the fact the new manager was in the stands watching City that day and no doubt had had a few words with players etc had an influence on the performance. GJ is often credited with his first day win away at Brentford in exactly the same circumstances.

I used an article from BBC Sport regarding the appointment of LJ, it said that City were in 22nd place after the win against Charlton. Surely I cannot be lambasted for using the BBC as my source. Just Google LJ appointment as Bristol City manager and the BBC Sport article is there to see that I wasn't attempting to mislead.

Here's the correct update as Mr Slowcoach here ran out of time to edit.

No. The BBC article says that City moved up to 20th place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35447260

"Meanwhile, Bristol City have gone up to 20th in the Championship and are now three points clear of the relegation zone."

You may be in luck. Were you referring to this article?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35502568

"City are currently 22nd in the Championship, having won just one of their four five matches under interim manager John Pemberton, who will remain at the club as first team coach"

Hang about.

"Johnson, who was given permission to speak to the Robins on Friday, will watch Saturday's game against Charlton from the directors' box."

The article was written before the game.

In all seriousness, I'm only pulling your leg. I've often got facts wrong without checking them first. We're all Bristol City fans - often with differing opinions - but its what makes us passionate about the club we love and respect to you and all OTIBers for that.

 

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21 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Strange, obviously Pemberton did a good job in the period he was caretaker but you can't rewrite history. Ultimately it was LJ that kept us up and he did a good job in the latter part of last season.

So, he's making up for it this season then!

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54 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

Here's the correct update as Mr Slowcoach here ran out of time to edit.

No. The BBC article says that City moved up to 20th place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35447260

"Meanwhile, Bristol City have gone up to 20th in the Championship and are now three points clear of the relegation zone."

You may be in luck. Were you referring to this article?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35502568

"City are currently 22nd in the Championship, having won just one of their four five matches under interim manager John Pemberton, who will remain at the club as first team coach"

Hang about.

"Johnson, who was given permission to speak to the Robins on Friday, will watch Saturday's game against Charlton from the directors' box."

The article was written before the game.

In all seriousness, I'm only pulling your leg. I've often got facts wrong without checking them first. We're all Bristol City fans - often with differing opinions - but its what makes us passionate about the club we love and respect to you and all OTIBers for that.

 

It was the second article you have provided a link to. I must've had a senior moment in that it stated he had watched the Charlton game as it hadn't actually taken place at that time. But it did back up my original response to Aizoon who said that City weren't in the drop zone when he was appointed as it clearly states, as you have indicated, that City were 22nd prior to the Charlton game and when LJ was appointed.

Thanks.

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It feels a bit like you're trying to discredit LJ's role in our survival and emphasise Pemberton's.

Most of that is subjective and we've got no way of knowing whether it was Pemberton or LJ who did 'much of the hard work' that led to our survival. Feels like you can't bring yourself to give LJ credit, always has to be a "but Pemberton..." included.

This season is different and in my opinion all three of Pemberton, LJ and Holden should've gone weeks ago, I just think its unfair to try and diminish LJ's achievements from last season.

 

No need to try and read my mind or speculate over my intentions PF. Credit where credit's due and credit for stabilising the club and leading the team to a couple of wins before LJ took over goes to Pembo, and to a lesser extent Wade.

The 'hard work' I spoke of was that done between permanent managers which laid that solid platform so LJ took over a re-energised team playing in a new formation. I think we can agree that hard work was down to Pembo, and that LJ will have benefitted from the unusual position of taking over a team on a reasonable run of form, and which had won it's previous game.

It seems to me that you're trying to give LJ extra credit while diminishing the vital role Pembo played in things, but in all honesty I'd have thought you'd have given up trying to talk up Lee Johnson.

I well remember our debates on LJ's suitability for the City job in the period after his name cropped up but before he was officially appointed. With the state of things now I'm surprised you want to get involved in another discussion with me about the merits of LJ.

I can only think he must have been a huge disappointment to you.

Certainly, as far as I'm concerned, he's turned out to be every inch the dreadful appointment I anticipated.

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8 hours ago, handsofclay said:

It was the second article you have provided a link to. I must've had a senior moment in that it stated he had watched the Charlton game as it hadn't actually taken place at that time. But it did back up my original response to Aizoon who said that City weren't in the drop zone when he was appointed as it clearly states, as you have indicated, that City were 22nd prior to the Charlton game and when LJ was appointed.

Thanks.

For all practical purposes LJ took on the job after the Charlton game and at his first training session with the squad City were out of the relegation zone.

It sounds like you're trying to re write things to give the impression that the club were in the relegation zone when LJ was appointed and therefore he led City out of it.

But that would be devious in the extreme because of course Pembo was in total charge of all matters leading up to and during the Charlton game and the credit for that result, and thereby lifting City out of the relegation zone, must go to him.

And to be fair to LJ, he made a point of crediting Pembo with the result at the time.

 

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10 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

For all practical purposes LJ took on the job after the Charlton game and at his first training session with the squad City were out of the relegation zone.

It sounds like you're trying to re write things to give the impression that the club were in the relegation zone when LJ was appointed and therefore he led City out of it.

But that would be devious in the extreme because of course Pembo was in total charge of all matters leading up to and during the Charlton game and the credit for that result, and thereby lifting City out of the relegation zone, must go to him.

And to be fair to LJ, he made a point of crediting Pembo with the result at the time.

 

You say that I am trying to rewrite things to give the impression that the club were in the relegation zone when LJ was appointed, but City were in the relegation zone when he was appointed there is no rewrite required. Furthermore, Pembo gets a lot of credit on here for getting City out of the relegation zone with the one nil win at fellow strugglers Charlton, so why doesn't LJ get credit from the same people for doing exactly the same thing last weekend, a one nil win at fellow strugglers Wigan to take us out of the relegation zone! This was without any input from Pembo whatsoever, whereas he was having an input previously.

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On 3/15/2017 at 21:37, Nogbad the Bad said:

Not really strange PF, no one's trying to re write history, but the fact remains the ship had been steadied, and the tide was being turned, by Pembo before LJ took over.

No one would disagree that LJ did a good job in the latter part of last season, mostly by being content not change things too drastically from the solid base Pembo had established.

Much of the hard work - getting the players re-focused from their disappointment at Cotts'. departure, changing the formation, getting a couple of wins for the club under his belt, reinvigorating the players, and getting the club back on an even keel, had been done by Pembo.

It's a great shame Pembo left the club before LJ.

 

 

 

 

He ditched Cotterill's failing system, for which we forever owe him a debt of gratitude.

But overall he won 1 drew 1 and lost 2.  Hardly saviour of the season material.

Not having a spy in the camp, I just cannot assess the impact Pemberton's dismissal will have on the team. Until we see a few more games it will be guesswork. I guess given the quality of decision-making around the club, most of us suspect it will be bad. However, there is just a glimmer of hope it will be a positive move.

Time will tell.

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2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

He ditched Cotterill's failing system, for which we forever owe him a debt of gratitude.

But overall he won 1 drew 1 and lost 2.  Hardly saviour of the season material.

 

I take it this is a wind up Robbo after you've read the disagreement between me and handsofclay.

Pembo's league record while caretaker (not including the 1-0 home defeat to PL West Brom in the Cup) was:

Middlesbro' (H) W 1-0

Leeds (A)           L 1-0

Birmingham (H) D 0-0

Charlton (A)      W 1-0

So 2 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat.

For your benefit, but particularly handsofclay, there is no dispute whatsoever whether Johnson was in charge for the Charlton match or not.

He was not.

The next game after Charlton, a 2-1 win over Ipswich at home, was described on the Official Site as 'a winning start to Lee Johnson's reign as City head coach.'

Ipswich was officially LJ's first game in charge.

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2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I take it this is a wind up Robbo after you've read the disagreement between me and handsofclay.

Pembo's league record while caretaker (not including the 1-0 home defeat to PL West Brom in the Cup) was:

Middlesbro' (H) W 1-0

Leeds (A)           L 1-0

Birmingham (H) D 0-0

Charlton (A)      W 1-0

So 2 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat.

For your benefit, but particularly handsofclay, there is no dispute whatsoever whether Johnson was in charge for the Charlton match or not.

He was not.

The next game after Charlton, a 2-1 win over Ipswich at home, was described on the Official Site as 'a winning start to Lee Johnson's reign as City head coach.'

Ipswich was officially LJ's first game in charge.

OK, I was only going on what it says on various stat sites. I accept that - even though LJ was here for the Charlton match - Pembo chose the team and was in charge on the day.

A minor point though, as I still think some posters claims that "he saved us that season, not Johnson" are wide of the mark. He contributed to our upturn.

And none of this detracts from the rest of what I wrote. We do not know what effect his dismissal will have.

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1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I take it this is a wind up Robbo after you've read the disagreement between me and handsofclay.

Pembo's league record while caretaker (not including the 1-0 home defeat to PL West Brom in the Cup) was:

Middlesbro' (H) W 1-0

Leeds (A)           L 1-0

Birmingham (H) D 0-0

Charlton (A)      W 1-0

So 2 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat.

For your benefit, but particularly handsofclay, there is no dispute whatsoever whether Johnson was in charge for the Charlton match or not.

He was not.

The next game after Charlton, a 2-1 win over Ipswich at home, was described on the Official Site as 'a winning start to Lee Johnson's reign as City head coach.'

Ipswich was officially LJ's first game in charge.

Why should we not include the one nil home defeat in the cup to PL WBA, a team we were beating at their place under Cotts until late into injury time? I bet if it had been a win it would have been included. Quite frankly, I thought we were poor in that game.

I am not saying that Pembo didn't take charge at Charlton, I am just saying that LJ had been appointed prior to the match and we were in the drop zone when he was appointed. I was initially replying to Aizoon who said we weren't. I still maintain that we were. The facts prove it. OK, so by the time he took his first training session we were out of the drop zone, but the players at Charlton knew he was watching them and that he was their new manager. Can you hand on heart say that had no influence at all on how the players played that day and that their good performance was all down to Pembo?

 

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1 minute ago, handsofclay said:

Why should we not include the one nil home defeat in the cup to PL WBA, a team we were beating at their place under Cotts until late into injury time? I bet if it had been a win it would have been included. Quite frankly, I thought we were poor in that game.

I am not saying that Pembo didn't take charge at Charlton, I am just saying that LJ had been appointed prior to the match and we were in the drop zone when he was appointed. I was initially replying to Aizoon who said we weren't. I still maintain that we were. The facts prove it. OK, so by the time he took his first training session we were out of the drop zone, but the players at Charlton knew he was watching them and that he was their new manager. Can you hand on heart say that had no influence at all on how the players played that day and that their good performance was all down to Pembo?

 

No influence at all, and the official site stated the Ipswich game was LJ's  first match in charge.

The fact you keep on stressing that LJ was appointed before the Charlton match, when City were in the drop zone, indicates your determination to give him some credit not only for the result but thereby lifting City out of the relegation zone.

That's not possible because the result had nothing to do with him, everything that day was down to Pembo, and Johnson gets ZERO credit for either the result or the improved league position it left us in.

This was confirmed by Johnson after the match, and further hammered home by the calculated wording on the Official Site after his debut match in charge, the VERY FIRST match LJ had any influence on, that being Ipswich at home.

Well done Pembo, the 3 points and the kudos for leading City out of the relegation zone goes 100% to you, and, as you fairly and correctly said yourself LJ, bugger all to do with you.

That's all from me. :sub:

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