Building on sand

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

Fail there then.

LJ is a poor coach/manager, totally unsuitable for such a project,

There's no reason whatsoever to believe he will ever be more than an average L1 manager - at best - despite the extraordinary patience and money being afforded to him by the owner.

He's made the same mistakes here as at Barnsley and he's apparently totally incapable of learning from them, or growing as a head coach.

The section of fans you talk about is very large, in fact I'd say almost unanimous bar a couple of dozen serial LJ defenders posting on here.

I haven't met a single City fan in the real world who didn't want to see the back of LJ long ago.

Perhaps they are right and the 'project manager' is fatally undermining his own project in the most fundamental way by employing a key figure who is totally incompatible with future success.

 

[Roger Red Hat]

6 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I haven't met a single City fan in the real world who didn't want to see the back of LJ long ago.

That's the same as my experience.

[Bat Fastard]

25 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Fail there then.

LJ is a poor coach/manager, totally unsuitable for such a project,

There's no reason whatsoever to believe he will ever be more than an average L1 manager - at best - despite the extraordinary patience and money being afforded to him by the owner.

He's made the same mistakes here as at Barnsley and he's apparently totally incapable of learning from them, or growing as a head coach.

The section of fans you talk about is very large, in fact I'd say almost unanimous bar a couple of dozen serial LJ defenders posting on here.

I haven't met a single City fan in the real world who didn't want to see the back of LJ long ago.

Perhaps they are right and the 'project manager' is fatally undermining his own project in the most fundamental way by employing a key figure who is totally incompatible with future success.

 

He built a good team at Barnsley and the core of that team are still holding their own in the Championship.  I remember seeing his Oldham team at Ashton Gate and being impressed with their football - and that was a team built on a shoestring.  I can see the problems that many on here think are likely to condemn him, and I simply back the judgement of SL, who has seen much over his long business and football career and clearly sees something worthwhile in Lee.  We do not get the opportunity to see the club from the inside - so many on here just make things up and spin them into urban myths.  Maybe judgements on the balance of the squad have been wrong at times but failures like Matthews are hard to come to terms with after his promising showing last season.  This is a league where very fine differences make a difference - and we are not that far away.

[Strictly Obi]

1 hour ago, oldstandrobin said:

Like you John, I did the same (from humble beginnings in Paulton) but this is modern day football. Did you treat your customers as idiots ( like MA not appearing on 20man and SL's mysterious Invisible Man status) cos I feel like a mushroom, did you keep salesmen on who didnt produce but drew a wage every week whilst you paid yourself nothing. I could go on but we saw the demise many many months ago and still the only move from the club was to let Pembo go. I could go on and on. BCFC in my book will continue to go round in circles for ever and getting nowhere. We havent got a 'right' to be succesfull and probably wont!! SL keeps trying to reinvent the wheel and sadly football wont allow it to happen. Sadly we wont bounce back from Lge 1 if we have Johnson in charge as to be honest his style of coaching is boring and unpredictable and really I am sick of watching dross at AG.

Fair enough, all I'm saying is I'm fed up of the manager Merry go round we seem to find ourselves on every two years. And am personally happy to stick with a guy through thick and thin,  to see if perhaps a long term approach prevails over what has been the norm since I started supporting this club many moons ago! 

[Caseleyhas2chins]

4 hours ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I think most fans would understand...but lets not forget that the message was Europa League in 5 years. Now I appreciate that this was tongue in cheek to an extent but if you tell people the plan, they'll be able to accept it.

I was at the BBC radio show at Ashton gate when LJ  said he would like us to be in The Europa league in 5 years, and that was most defiantly not a tongue in cheek  comment.

[Strictly Obi]

7 minutes ago, Caseleyhas2chins said:

I was at the BBC radio show at Ashton gate when LJ  said he would like us to be in The Europa league in 5 years, and that was most defiantly not a tongue in cheek  comment.

I'd like us to be in the Europe league in 5 years. Wouldn't you? Not sure what's wrong with his statement????

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, john from high littleton said:

I'd like us to be in the Europe league in 5 years. Wouldn't you? Not sure what's wrong with his statement????

Wouldn't we all! 

LJ made the statement though, and he manages and coaches the team.Do you not think he's feels a tad foolish to have said it, whilst a few months later leading us in to a relegation battle. Perhaps he thought we would win the FA cup in one of the next 5 seasons!

[citywest30]

6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

He has bought in 19 players!, plus another couple ( the young lad from Wrexham whose at Cheltenham being one of them). He then starts a game with THREE of the 19 players he's signed. Would you not agree that the fact he himself feels that 16 of his signings aren't good enough to start a game  is absolutely farcical. 

He's been given the riches that other managers can only dream about, he's used those riches so badly that he's guided us into a relegation battle. 

A lot of the signings are very good footballers, unfortunately he himself isn't capable of coaching these players into a team. A team with a style of play, the right tactics and the right shape, a team that can get us through 90 minutes of football without capitulating in 90% of games. 

I agree to a certain extent that it seems strange that certain players have been brought in and then bombed out but another way of looking at it could be that the arrival of new players has made the others up their game.

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle - some poor signings, some improvements by others. If only signing players was a science!

[Strictly Obi]

14 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Wouldn't we all! 

LJ made the statement though, and he manages and coaches the team.Do you not think he's feels a tad foolish to have said it, whilst a few months later leading us in to a relegation battle. Perhaps he thought we would win the FA cup in one of the next 5 seasons!

I said to my son before his schools sports day. That if he trained hard enough, then he might one day win an Olympic gold medal. Doesn't make me a bad parent! 

[Dr Balls]

22 minutes ago, john from high littleton said:

I said to my son before his schools sports day. That if he trained hard enough, then he might one day win an Olympic gold medal. Doesn't make me a bad parent! 

Without even knowing your son, I am still pretty sure that the odds on him getting an Olympic Gold Medal one day, are shorter than LJ leading us to the Europa League within 5 years. The  bookies would be banking my money before I left the shop if I laid the bet on LJ. And please don't quote Leicester winning the Premier League. At least they were already in the Premier League which reduces the odds somewhat...

[Gert Mare]

8 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

Make sure the head coach is also hungry and dynamic and aligned with JP's way of thinking........

[REDOXO]

7 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Oh come on Bill - we do not have access to emergency loans any more and so we need to keep a large number of players. All the 20 year olds on the fringes of the squad this year, will start to come into their own next year.  We need players to cover injuries, loss of form (Matthews!) and other issues.  Every season is very long and, subject to league pressures, Lee has tried to give youth a chance.  He has no had much encouragement from the fans for trying to carry out his project with SL, which will eventually be very good for the fans.  Alan Dicks built a good young squad and that served us well at the time.

Without getting relegated!

Hope LJ can emulate that!

[Inactive user]

8 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I believe that football clubs no longer have the time to build teams or develop youngsters for their first team .

The players seem to move on every two years and the managers the same . Instant success is demanded , the time not given.

There are many references to what Dicks did here but today it's not possible to keep a group of young players together.

Our brightest stars are poached by the bigger clubs and stockpiled .

Even Arsenal have problems keeping hold of their top players who demand trophies every year ( Not thinking that they hold any responsibility for failing to win them at the Emirates ) 

As a club , we are swimming against the tide .

 I wish it was possible but I fear it is already an outdated model .

 I don't care much for the modern ' game ' . 

The money is more important than the actual game itself .

Great, if slightly depressing post Major. All of which points to the need to do things differently. To out think opponents who we can't out spend.

Trouble is, with the current regime I have no confidence whatsoever that we could out think a soap dish.

[Olé]

15 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I simply back the judgement of SL, who has seen much over his long business and football career and clearly sees something worthwhile in Lee.  We do not get the opportunity to see the club from the inside

So what is the "inside opportunity" that helps SL see something worthwhile in Lee?

In your defence of the status quo I think you've inadvertently crashed directly into my worst fears. 

What is it, that irrespective of things that the rest of us can all see - results, performances, self-evident lack of coaching improvement of any player, continued lack of knowledge of first choice team - makes SL so accommodating of Lee Johnson? 

After all, you cast the doubt yourself. Implied there is some privileged insight that SL keeps him in a job for.

I absolutely agree with that, and I agree that SL has an opportunity that the rest of us don't. But what is it? 

The most recent evidence we have was in his 'vote of confidence' interview with Geoff Twentyman when SL said: "I’m not ‘hands on’ at all, on a Saturday I’ll often go and have a word with Lee before the game, but more often after the game and we’ll have a few words, and discuss what went right, what went wrong, and the positives that came out of the game and obviously the negatives in recent times, and I’ll normally have a conversation with him either on a Sunday evening or on a Monday evening when he’s had time to digest the game and gone through it.  But it’s only really to help, him, because I know you’ve been in management yourself, it’s a lonely position, you need somebody to bounce ideas off and I’m one of those people."

 

Well that's definitely the inside track! We can all draw our own conclusions about whether he's "not hands on at all", the real question is whether that level of access and - I'd venture - influence, is a privilege which makes SL unusually keen to have LJ around.

If SL is "one of those people" who have the opportunity to continually debate LJ's footballing ideas (and others linked to City suggest father Gary is another "of those people"), do we have a clear football leader or a cabal of assembled friends led by and indulging SL?

Of course, this is all just pure conjecture about what the hidden value is that SL sees as worthwhile in Lee - I'm only responding to innuendo which you raised yourself as a defence of that "judgement", without actually offering any realistic or credible reason for it.....? 

[Olé]

BTW - some great contributions in this thread. @Portland Bill your "fickle" post is brilliant, and word for word my position too relative to previous managers. This is why I don't buy the stability/loyalty argument - it is so heartening that there are clearly a number of us whose own historic advocacy of stability/loyalty outlasted prior managers (and indeed SL's loyalty to them), so we don't need lecturing on stability, and it says a lot that we've taken this alternative view of LJ (as it should be, down to the quality of the football and the evidence of our own eyes).

[cidered abroad]

21 minutes ago, Olé said:

So what is the "inside opportunity" that helps SL see something worthwhile in Lee?

In your defence of the status quo I think you've inadvertently crashed directly into my worst fears. 

What is it, that irrespective of things that the rest of us can all see - results, performances, self-evident lack of coaching improvement of any player, continued lack of knowledge of first choice team - makes SL so accommodating of Lee Johnson? 

After all, you cast the doubt yourself. Implied there is some privileged insight that SL keeps him in a job for.

I absolutely agree with that, and I agree that SL has an opportunity that the rest of us don't. But what is it? 

The most recent evidence we have was in his 'vote of confidence' interview with Geoff Twentyman when SL said: "I’m not ‘hands on’ at all, on a Saturday I’ll often go and have a word with Lee before the game, but more often after the game and we’ll have a few words, and discuss what went right, what went wrong, and the positives that came out of the game and obviously the negatives in recent times, and I’ll normally have a conversation with him either on a Sunday evening or on a Monday evening when he’s had time to digest the game and gone through it.  But it’s only really to help, him, because I know you’ve been in management yourself, it’s a lonely position, you need somebody to bounce ideas off and I’m one of those people."

 

Well that's definitely the inside track! We can all draw our own conclusions about whether he's "not hands on at all", the real question is whether that level of access and - I'd venture - influence, is a privilege which makes SL unusually keen to have LJ around.

If SL is "one of those people" who have the opportunity to continually debate LJ's footballing ideas (and others linked to City suggest father Gary is another "of those people"), do we have a clear football leader or a cabal of assembled friends led by and indulging SL?

Of course, this is all just pure conjecture about what the hidden value is that SL sees as worthwhile in Lee - I'm only responding to innuendo which you raised yourself as a defence of that "judgement", without actually offering any realistic or credible reason for it.....? 

I seriously wonder if the job of Bristol City Head Coach is actually now a triumvirate of SL, LJ and GJ.

The future of our club is not looking good at all.

[Bat Fastard]

46 minutes ago, Olé said:

So what is the "inside opportunity" that helps SL see something worthwhile in Lee?

In your defence of the status quo I think you've inadvertently crashed directly into my worst fears. 

What is it, that irrespective of things that the rest of us can all see - results, performances, self-evident lack of coaching improvement of any player, continued lack of knowledge of first choice team - makes SL so accommodating of Lee Johnson? 

After all, you cast the doubt yourself. Implied there is some privileged insight that SL keeps him in a job for.

I absolutely agree with that, and I agree that SL has an opportunity that the rest of us don't. But what is it? 

The most recent evidence we have was in his 'vote of confidence' interview with Geoff Twentyman when SL said: "I’m not ‘hands on’ at all, on a Saturday I’ll often go and have a word with Lee before the game, but more often after the game and we’ll have a few words, and discuss what went right, what went wrong, and the positives that came out of the game and obviously the negatives in recent times, and I’ll normally have a conversation with him either on a Sunday evening or on a Monday evening when he’s had time to digest the game and gone through it.  But it’s only really to help, him, because I know you’ve been in management yourself, it’s a lonely position, you need somebody to bounce ideas off and I’m one of those people."

 

Well that's definitely the inside track! We can all draw our own conclusions about whether he's "not hands on at all", the real question is whether that level of access and - I'd venture - influence, is a privilege which makes SL unusually keen to have LJ around.

If SL is "one of those people" who have the opportunity to continually debate LJ's footballing ideas (and others linked to City suggest father Gary is another "of those people"), do we have a clear football leader or a cabal of assembled friends led by and indulging SL?

Of course, this is all just pure conjecture about what the hidden value is that SL sees as worthwhile in Lee - I'm only responding to innuendo which you raised yourself as a defence of that "judgement", without actually offering any realistic or credible reason for it.....? 

I have no more "inside track" than anyone else on here.  SL does seem to have genuine high regard for Lee and that must come from somewhere.  He realises that managers need help from older (and wiser) heads and acts as a mentor.  To get beyond "what appears to be the case" you will have to ask the people concerned.  They are bound to do a phone in at some stage, so hopefully you will get your opportunity.  I would be fascinated to know what is happening!

[JoeAman08]

LJ aside and I know he's a big part of it but I don't want to get into that argument, we've got this kind of plan in place. We maybe had a few too many things to juggle to start it as hard and in your face as we did. Yes millions were spent but many of those millions were on players to base this around and the first team players we did buy haven't exactly helped the cause. 

Point is, in theory, we've got a good plan and while I don't want us to go down or don't think we have the confidence reject head coach in place, we have some really good young players that should excel very soon. The millions we spent we can make back and then some imo. My biggest problem was we bought a few too many players. You can't have a full squad of 25 and still bring through some youth. We should've had 20 or so and relied on some youth if needed. I'd rather have seen McCoulskey, Vyner and De Girolamo on the bench in a tough situation then spend on someone to do the same. I trust the scouts and think most of what we bought will have successful careers at a decent level but too many too soon with a new inexperienced coach with everything else happening with the stadium and such. It all happened too fast and the first XI suffered. 

[downendcity]

13 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Without getting relegated!

Hope LJ can emulate that!

...only by the skin of his teeth on more than one occasion.

It was a different time in those days. Those were times when Carlisle, Luton , Oxford and Notts County got to the top flight, as did we and were capable of competing because although there were the big wealthy clubs, the gulf in money was nothing like as it is now. 

Managers, and players, stayed at clubs for much longer than today and while fans were as upset by poor results as they are today, there was not the knee jerk, we must replace the manager after a few bad results that seems to be the trend nowadays - a trend embraced by chairmen/owners all too often. The reasons for this clamour is the glamour and riches that lie at the end of the Premier League rainbow.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not for one moment saying this to defend LJ remaining as head coach. However, I have heard many fans on phone ins saying that clubs need to show more patience when results go against them as chopping and changing managers doesn't improve things linger term and perhaps SL is taking this view - even though many City fans feel it is misguided.

SL is treading a tightrope with his loyalty and I hope he is proved correct at the end of the season, and that we go o to reap the benefits of his commitment.

Major's squeaky bum oil will be applied liberalyl over the next few weeks until we find out one way or the other!

[Frenchay Red]

50 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I seriously wonder if the job of Bristol City Head Coach is actually now a triumvirate of SL, LJ and GJ.

The future of our club is not looking good at all.

I wouldn't exclude JL from having input either.

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems to happen more in Europe, though even there unless the club is a big hitter in one of the top few Leagues there will get cherry picked.

• Sporting Lisbon- great academy, provided the backbone of Portugal side for many years- Portugal a small market, and not the richest country= players go
• Ajax- The classic example, produced so many great players over the years. Sell, sell sell!
• In more recent times, Feyenoord have had a pretty strong academy- again same problem.
• Atalanta look to have an excellent crop coming through- but a mid ranking Italian club won't keep them will they?
• Benfica seem to be bringing throiugh a strong crop but how many will they keep??
• Bilbao possibly- their Basque identity and all that but even they lose a few top ones.

Would say the only one who seem to build and have a regular flow of youth- and keep a large chunk- are obviously Barcelona and Bayern but they can easily afford it- AC Milan are hardly a small or middle club but rebuilding. The only one who fit neither the category of those above or mega club is Atletico- so it is extremely hard to keep said players, absolutely. Still I would like to see us develop with a strong youth setup.

I would add Monaco to list too- not all came via academy but 8 players under 25 starting and now in CL quarter finals is exceptional! Whether they can keep that side together however...

[lager loud]

23 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

There are some of us who have bought into the idea of a long term plan of developing our own players, aren't slagging off SL and were quite prepared for some difficult times; but who think that we need an enthusiastic and competent head coach, and that perseverance with an incompetent one in the hope that he might grow into the role might just derail the whole thing.

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

...only by the skin of his teeth on more than one occasion.

It was a different time in those days. Those were times when Carlisle, Luton , Oxford and Notts County got to the top flight, as did we and were capable of competing because although there were the big wealthy clubs, the gulf in money was nothing like as it is now. 

Managers, and players, stayed at clubs for much longer than today and while fans were as upset by poor results as they are today, there was not the knee jerk, we must replace the manager after a few bad results that seems to be the trend nowadays - a trend embraced by chairmen/owners all too often. The reasons for this clamour is the glamour and riches that lie at the end of the Premier League rainbow.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not for one moment saying this to defend LJ remaining as head coach. However, I have heard many fans on phone ins saying that clubs need to show more patience when results go against them as chopping and changing managers doesn't improve things linger term and perhaps SL is taking this view - even though many City fans feel it is misguided.

SL is treading a tightrope with his loyalty and I hope he is proved correct at the end of the season, and that we go o to reap the benefits of his commitment.

Major's squeaky bum oil will be applied liberalyl over the next few weeks until we find out one way or the other!

Hurry while stocks last .

Free applicator for the first 200 orders .

 

[Bat Fastard]

1 hour ago, lager loud said:

There are some of us who have bought into the idea of a long term plan of developing our own players, aren't slagging off SL and were quite prepared for some difficult times; but who think that we need an enthusiastic and competent head coach, and that perseverance with an incompetent one in the hope that he might grow into the role might just derail the whole thing.

 

I take your point and I also have concerns.  My point was that we do not see what SL sees and that maybe he knows rather more than us and is in a much better position to make a judgement.  As I said in another post, at sometime there will be a phone in and you will be able to dig for the truth!

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Hurry while stocks last .

Free applicator for the first 200 orders .

 

I don't think we need to know too much information about your applicator Major  

[lager loud]

8 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I take your point and I also have concerns.  My point was that we do not see what SL sees and that maybe he knows rather more than us and is in a much better position to make a judgement.  As I said in another post, at sometime there will be a phone in and you will be able to dig for the truth!

Fair enough. All I have to go on is what I see on the pitch, which I haven't found very encouraging of late. I set little or no store by the ITK(?) accounts of what's going on behind the scenes.

A remote leader can just as easily be misled by underlings' reports of what's going on as they can be aware of things that aren't obvious to the rest of us. I'm not saying this is the case at BCFC now - we just don't know.

[AshtonGreat]

On 15/03/2017 at 10:56, john from high littleton said:

I agree with this to a point. But fear there is no alternative, other than paying the outlandish fee's for mediocre players and the over inflated wages that go with them! Ie how we've conducted our business in the past.

So unfortunately I think we need to continue to buy clever. Ie Jonathan Kodja. Try our best to keep them, but only sell if the price suits us! 

Yeah we were clever with Kodjia... then proceeded to squander all the money

[AshtonGreat]

21 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I take your point and I also have concerns.  My point was that we do not see what SL sees and that maybe he knows rather more than us and is in a much better position to make a judgement.  As I said in another post, at sometime there will be a phone in and you will be able to dig for the truth!

The results speak for themselves BF. What more is there to see?

[Bat Fastard]

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

The results speak for themselves BF. What more is there to see?

We have not yet heard the fat lady singing!

[BobBobSuperBob]