Management team: just sit back and ponder this

[Ivorguy]

9 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

You could add several more to those mentioned.

Lawrie McMenemy had little experience as a player, having retired early because of injury. He was in the Coldstream Guards before his football career/ Early management brought three trophies at different clubs before he went to Southampton and the rest is well known.

Nearer home, Alan Dicks never dug up trees as a player and became our manager at the tender age of 33 with nil experience of management except as a coach at Coventry under Jimmy Hill.

PS. I didn't read all the posts until after I'd written this.  

The two important words in your post to my mind, and I can recall excitement at AD's appointment because of this, are Jimmy Hill.  He had had a good apprenticeship 

[1bristolcity]

Well it's a different day and a different way of undermining the Club again, you must have many a sleepless night thinking of some new and novel way in pissing of everyone.

How about just supporting the club for the time being? We are approaching the do or die bit of the season and although you may want the Club to fail, plenty don't. 

[Ivorguy]

8 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Well it's a different day and a different way of undermining the Club again, you must have many a sleepless night thinking of some new and novel way in pissing of everyone.

How about just supporting the club for the time being? We are approaching the do or die bit of the season and although you may want the Club to fail, plenty don't. 

What a quite ridiculous post.Do keep up with the fun of being on otib and reflecting on past glories.  We all want the good days to return

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

I haven't read all this thread, but I'd turn the issue around and ask how many top players have gone on to be successful managers and coaches in the English league.  Not many, I think...

[redredrobin5]

13 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I'm tired Nick. Really tired. At least the players like Holden. Allegedly. 

WHY does Lee Johnson continually get the stick. Has anyone stopped and thought about the players and there attitudes? I know LJ picks the system etc, BUT how often have you gone to work and worked for someone you don't really get on with? What does that do to your commitment or performance? Do you just accept it and keep performing for that Business.........if so, why doesn't the players?

 

The players need to a responsible for this. They won a few games and go on a good run, only then to be humiliated by losing 5-0 to Preston and feeling responsible enough for their performance to refund the players......then they go and beat Wolves 3-1. They re not consistent and i would urge all the fans to get behind the team in its entirety and prey the players perform and keep us in the league.

 

the fans can create a lot of negativity. Yes we are the ones who fund the club and pay to watch some of the poor performances, but the with hunt for LJ is not getting anywhere. The board have made the choice to back LJ and now its time for us to do that i think.

I don't see LJ being to blame for all this. if the players disliked him and the coaching staff that much or didn't like the formation that much then they would be a lot more reluctant to keep picking up Wins and a few draws.

 

Come on, get behind them.

 

PS - No im not LJ's Dad!!!! i am a rugby fan, football fan and was part of the stadium build and we as Bristol Sport supporters have suffered a little this season....but lets get behind them all, support the brand and look forward.

[Robbored]

13 hours ago, chinapig said:

I can't help but think you undermine your case by implying there is a correlation between playing career and management. 

Indeed.

No idea what point Nick is attempting to make.

Mourinho and Wenger neither played at a decent level.

[richwwtk]

7 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I haven't read all this thread, but I'd turn the issue around and ask how many top players have gone on to be successful managers and coaches in the English league.  Not many, I think...

Brian Clough had a decent enough playing career if I recall correctly.

Kenny Dalglish

Does Keegan count as a successful manager?

I'm not thinking very hard right now though.

[redredrobin5]

7 hours ago, allyolly said:

If the management set up troubles you this much then maybe find something else to do with your time?

Lansdown has been very clear that there will be no change of management this season, statistically we are doing better in the last couple of months than since September and currently our destiny is completely in our own hands. Compared to earlier in the year I'm prepared to go with this.

Under achieving this season? Definitely but I'm sick of the boom and bust mentality of the managerial merry go round and would like to see what a bit of stability will bring. 

 

my point exactly. Lets accept that LJ will still be here, good luck to the kid and i'm sure this experience, whilst frustrating, will make him a better manager for us.

The players need to have a good look at themselves and have some respect for the fans and put an end to their shoddy performances.

[Robbored]

Just now, richwwtk said:

Brian Clough had a decent enough playing career if I recall correctly.

Kenny Dalglish

Does Keegan count as a successful manager?

I'm not thinking very hard right now though.

Obviously not.........

Brian Clough was a top goalscorer but his career was ended by a serious back injury. KK was successful as the Newcastle manager bu a dismal flop everywhere else.

[1953]

I'm not sure what this particular rerun of the management is crap argument sets out to achieve, but there sure is a sense of deja vu. I'm not sure  I've learnt enough lessons in life, but one I have along the way is that unless it's within your span of control to change something, moaning on about it will achieve nothing. One thing the moaners and non moaners have in common is the realisation that things didn't go to plan this season..... but SL and LJ etc realise and acknowledge that too. The thing we all need to pray for is that lessons have been learnt. One thing you don't need is too many players to choose a team from. Johnson become spoilt for choice to the extent he never knew his best side.  You also need to build from the back...... that's why Fat Sam has  never been relegated.  No, it's not always pretty but none of the supporters  (maybe West  Ham aside) moaned about his methods because they would rather see their team win 1-0 than lose 4-3. A few weeks ago it was looking bleak, but now they probably are only a couple of wins away from survival. Let's hope tomorrow is one of them. 

[richwwtk]

Just now, Robbored said:

Brian Clough was a top goalscorer but his career was ended by a serious back injury

It is though, interesting just how many top managers seem to have their playing careers cut short by injury.

I wonder if it's a desire to stay involved in the game leading them to take an interest in the coaching and management side of the game at an earlier age therefore giving them an experience advantage over their peers.

[ScottishRed]

25 minutes ago, redredrobin5 said:

WHY does Lee Johnson continually get the stick. Has anyone stopped and thought about the players and there attitudes? I know LJ picks the system etc, BUT how often have you gone to work and worked for someone you don't really get on with? What does that do to your commitment or performance? Do you just accept it and keep performing for that Business.........if so, why doesn't the players?

 

The players need to a responsible for this. They won a few games and go on a good run, only then to be humiliated by losing 5-0 to Preston and feeling responsible enough for their performance to refund the players......then they go and beat Wolves 3-1. They re not consistent and i would urge all the fans to get behind the team in its entirety and prey the players perform and keep us in the league.

 

the fans can create a lot of negativity. Yes we are the ones who fund the club and pay to watch some of the poor performances, but the with hunt for LJ is not getting anywhere. The board have made the choice to back LJ and now its time for us to do that i think.

I don't see LJ being to blame for all this. if the players disliked him and the coaching staff that much or didn't like the formation that much then they would be a lot more reluctant to keep picking up Wins and a few draws.

 

Come on, get behind them.

 

PS - No im not LJ's Dad!!!! i am a rugby fan, football fan and was part of the stadium build and we as Bristol Sport supporters have suffered a little this season....but lets get behind them all, support the brand and look forward.

Unfortunate I don't have the time to point out the numerous errors in that post!

i do have time to point out one however "support the brand" ?

[cityloyal473]

42 minutes ago, redredrobin5 said:

WHY does Lee Johnson continually get the stick. Has anyone stopped and thought about the players and there attitudes? I know LJ picks the system etc, BUT how often have you gone to work and worked for someone you don't really get on with? What does that do to your commitment or performance? Do you just accept it and keep performing for that Business.........if so, why doesn't the players?

 

The players need to a responsible for this. They won a few games and go on a good run, only then to be humiliated by losing 5-0 to Preston and feeling responsible enough for their performance to refund the players......then they go and beat Wolves 3-1. They re not consistent and i would urge all the fans to get behind the team in its entirety and prey the players perform and keep us in the league.

 

the fans can create a lot of negativity. Yes we are the ones who fund the club and pay to watch some of the poor performances, but the with hunt for LJ is not getting anywhere. The board have made the choice to back LJ and now its time for us to do that i think.

I don't see LJ being to blame for all this. if the players disliked him and the coaching staff that much or didn't like the formation that much then they would be a lot more reluctant to keep picking up Wins and a few draws.

 

Come on, get behind them.

 

PS - No im not LJ's Dad!!!! i am a rugby fan, football fan and was part of the stadium build and we as Bristol Sport supporters have suffered a little this season....but lets get behind them all, support the brand and look forward.

Poor attempt at a wind up.

[Septic Peg]

I think it's a bit of both...

Closer to home, David Moyes, Steve McClaren and Sean Dyche. All ex city players but not starlets. All managing/managed prem clubs and one even had the England job.

Then again, Mark Hughes and Steve Bruce both starlets in their careers and not done terribly as managers.

[GrahamC]

39 minutes ago, Robbored said:

KK was successful as the Newcastle manager bu a dismal flop everywhere else.

I suggest you better research Keegan's record at Fulham then, a 62% win rate and promotion is not my (or anyone else's) definition of a "dismal flop".

Whilst I totally agree that you should divorce playing and managerial careers, Conte, Simeone, Ancelotti, Pochettino and Koeman all had excellent playing careers and have since gone on to have top coaching ones, too.

Though putting any of them in the same context as Lee Johnson is a bit like comparing a Sunday morning pub footballer with Lionel Messi..

[reddoh]

Sadly at our level Colin must be one of the best ever

[Betty Swallocks]

14 hours ago, NickJ said:

^{What other Championship club with Premiership ambition would have a management team with the playing and managerial experience of:}

Johnson - played for whatever team his dad happened to be manager of and Kilmarnock; 36% managerial win rate in 3rd division

^{McAllister - I like "Macca", a lot, but us, Yeovil and Exeter; only recently got his coaching badges I believe, but he is mates with Johnson}

^{Holden -  played for most of the northern 3rd and 4th division teams; 20% managerial win rate at Oldham, but he is mates with Johnson}

In all seriousness, just what other club would entertain this farce?

I'm anti-Johnson but this post is a bit gash to be honest. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

23 minutes ago, 1953 said:

I'm not sure what this particular rerun of the management is crap argument sets out to achieve, but there sure is a sense of deja vu. I'm not sure  I've learnt enough lessons in life, but one I have along the way is that unless it's within your span of control to change something, moaning on about it will achieve nothing. One thing the moaners and non moaners have in common is the realisation that things didn't go to plan this season..... but SL and LJ etc realise and acknowledge that too. The thing we all need to pray for is that lessons have been learnt. One thing you don't need is too many players to choose a team from. Johnson become spoilt for choice to the extent he never knew his best side.  You also need to build from the back...... that's why Fat Sam has  never been relegated.  No, it's not always pretty but none of the supporters  (maybe West  Ham aside) moaned about his methods because they would rather see their team win 1-0 than lose 4-3. A few weeks ago it was looking bleak, but now they probably are only a couple of wins away from survival. Let's hope tomorrow is one of them. 

Johnson's not looking to get a settled team. He's said you need a big squad so you can rotate players and 'freshen things up'. That is, a huge unwieldy squad that gives carte blanche to constant experimentation and tinkering and the coach being quite open about what should be an embarrassing admission of not knowing his best team.

Not sure when a cumbersome squad became such an overriding necessity in the modern game, but apparently, in LJ's extraordinary world of 'outstanding' football coaching, it is.

So expect plenty more new signings in the Summer to follow the 19 so far, numerous changes every week, and a disgruntled faction of dropped and discarded players pushed into the background.

If I was SL I'd inform LJ he must reduce his squad to 22 maximum - still more than necessary - and order him to work with that.

Then perhaps we might see something resembling a settled team, and even perhaps a modicum of genuine progression from the u.23's rather than just empty talk with the odd appearance from the likes of Dowling and Vyner thrown in randomly in order to provide mind boggling 'evidence' that the project is very much on track..

[shelts]

Graham Taylor

Arsene Wenger 

Lawrie Mcmenemy 

l get the point of the original poster though. 

[Sweeneys Penalties]

14 hours ago, NickJ said:

See my response to chinapig.

Wenger won the league as manager at Monaco and in Japan before Arsenal. He had a long road to becoming a manager.

Mourinho similarly proved himself as a successful coach at lower levels, working his way up.

Our team do not have these credentials.

 

 

Are you implying that Bristol City are a top club....bigger than Monaco for example? I've lost your point a little

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Obviously not.........

Brian Clough was a top goalscorer but his career was ended by a serious back injury. KK was successful as the Newcastle manager bu a dismal flop everywhere else.

No, he overcame that if it actually ever happened.

It was a knee injury that finished Clough's career.

[Sweeneys Penalties]

Just now, shelts said:

Graham Taylor

Arsene Wenger 

Lawrie Mcmenemy 

l get the point of the original poster though. 

and in complete contrast,,,Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton and Nobby Stiles. 

[Malago]

5 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Johnson's not looking to get a settled team. He's said you need a big squad so you can rotate players and 'freshen things up'. That is, a huge unwieldy squad that gives carte blanche to constant experimentation and tinkering and the coach being quite open about what should be an embarrassing admission of not knowing his best team.

Not sure when a cumbersome squad became such an overriding necessity in the modern game, but apparently, in LJ's extraordinary world of 'outstanding' football coaching, it is.

So expect plenty more new signings in the Summer to follow the 19 so far, numerous changes every week, and a disgruntled faction of dropped and discarded players pushed into the background.

If I was SL I'd inform LJ he must reduce his squad to 22 maximum - still more than necessary - and order him to work with that.

Then perhaps we might see something resembling a settled team, and even perhaps a modicum of genuine progression from the u.23's rather than just empty talk with the odd appearance from the likes of Dowling and Vyner thrown in randomly in order to provide mind boggling 'evidence' that the project is very much on track..

Couldn't agree more.  The likes of Paterson, CoD and Brownhill, all show promise but need a sustained run in the team to improve their consistency of performance.  LJ, assuming he stays, needs to identify 16 to players who barring injuries form the basis of the first team squad.

[1953]

5 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Johnson's not looking to get a settled team. He's said you need a big squad so you can rotate players and 'freshen things up'. That is, a huge unwieldy squad that gives carte blanche to constant experimentation and tinkering and the coach being quite open about what should be an embarrassing admission of not knowing his best team.

Not sure when a cumbersome squad became such an overriding necessity in the modern game, but apparently, in LJ's extraordinary world of 'outstanding' football coaching, it is.

So expect plenty more new signings in the Summer to follow the 19 so far, numerous changes every week, and a disgruntled faction of dropped and discarded players pushed into the background.

If I was SL I'd inform LJ he must reduce his squad to 22 maximum - still more than necessary - and order him to work with that.

Then perhaps we might see something resembling a settled team, and even perhaps a modicum of genuine progression from the u.23's rather than just empty talk with the odd appearance from the likes of Dowling and Vyner thrown in randomly in order to provide mind boggling 'evidence' that the project is very much on track..

Well, ever the optimist, I would hope that the end of season review would highlight that pre the Hull game, a settled side produced results and after that ,the constant rotation didnt. If you dont learn from your mistakes you dont deserve to succeed. Lets see if he's learnt anything when tomorrows line up is announced.

[Son of Fred]

2 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

I suspect form has picked up recently because the players have realised that they need to avoid relegation. Part of the reason for the horrendous run, if rumours are believed, is that they want LJ gone. There has been discord and a resulting downing of tools. They can only take this so far and don't want to cost themselves money by being relegated. If Johnson remains in post and we stay up I fully expect the horrendous form to return at the start of next season. It feels like the Ranieri scenario to me. 

That's the crux of the matter-the fella can (and will)be a repeat offender, regardless of the division.

Lee doesn't know what he's doing.that is all.

[Son of Fred]

5 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Well, ever the optimist, I would hope that the end of season review would highlight that pre the Hull game, a settled side produced results and after that ,the constant rotation didnt. If you dont learn from your mistakes you dont deserve to succeed. Lets see if he's learnt anything when tomorrows line up is announced.

Taylor & Paterson gathering splinters??....I wouldn't bet against it.

[NickJ]

54 minutes ago, Robbored said:

No idea what point Nick is attempting to make.

Mourinho and Wenger neither played at a decent level.

 

47 minutes ago, 1953 said:

I'm not sure what this particular rerun of the management is crap argument sets out to achieve, but there sure is a sense of deja vu. I'm not sure  I've learnt enough lessons in life, but one I have along the way is that unless it's within your span of control to change something, moaning on about it will achieve nothing. 

The point I am making, @Robbored and others, is that successful managers have either been previously successful managers at a lower level, OR have been top players at the level they are managing at. Dalglish has been mentioned, he went straight into top level management, but he had previously been a top player.

I am NOT saying that bad players cannot be good managers. What I am saying is that an average player is unlikely to become a good manager at a higher level, unless they have proved themselves as a decent manager at a lower level first.

@Big C has mentioned Nigel Adkins, Sean Dyche and Eddie Howe as examples of players from lower levels who have taken teams to the Premiership.

Adkins started with promotions at Bangor and then Scunthorpe before taking Southampton to the Premiership.

Dyche was captain for many of the teams he played for, started out coaching youth teams, was assistant at Watford in the Championship, and was involved in England under 21's, and thus had demonstrated leadership credentials.

Howe as a player was selected for England Under 21's and was transferred to Portsmouth who were then in the Premiership; after injury finished his career he started at Bournemouth as youth coach and reserve coach; also notable is that he was so popular at Bournemouth that the fans raised the transfer fee to buy him back from Portsmouth after his knee injury.

@1953 this is a forum where people express opinions. My post is not moaning or deja vu, as I am trying to explain why I feel that our managerial set up is doomed to under achievement relative to the resource provided by Mr Lansdown AND the supporters.

Look at the other 23 Championship teams and I do not think there is a single one whose management team has a less impressive pedigree.

[Nogbad the Bad]

15 hours ago, NickJ said:

^{What other Championship club with Premiership ambition would have a management team with the playing and managerial experience of:}

Johnson - played for whatever team his dad happened to be manager of and Kilmarnock; 36% managerial win rate in 3rd division

^{McAllister - I like "Macca", a lot, but us, Yeovil and Exeter; only recently got his coaching badges I believe, but he is mates with Johnson}

^{Holden -  played for most of the northern 3rd and 4th division teams; 20% managerial win rate at Oldham, but he is mates with Johnson}

In all seriousness, just what other club would entertain this farce?

The answer of course is none, not because of their playing career backgrounds specifically - I don't see that as being your main point at all - but because all are completely unproven on the coaching side at this level and have been at best ordinary lower down.

Their combination is an almost certain recipe for failure, and, if persevered with, very likely disaster.

They are in situ for the wrong reasons and the chances this cosy threesome will bring success to Bristol City are so unlikely as to be almost unimaginable, yet that is exactly what we're being asked to invest in with our ST's.

[NickJ]

16 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Are you implying that Bristol City are a top club....bigger than Monaco for example? I've lost your point a little

Does my post above help?

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

The answer of course is none, not because of their playing career backgrounds specifically - I don't see that as being your main point at all - but because all are completely unproven on the coaching side at this level and have been at best ordinary lower down.

Their combination is an almost certain recipe for failure, and, if persevered with, very likely disaster.

They are in situ for the wrong reasons and the chances this cosy threesome will bring success to Bristol City are so unlikely as to be almost unimaginable, yet that is exactly what we're being asked to invest in with our ST's.

Exactly.

And I would add. 

Our one and only decent managerial appointment since Johnson Senior was Cotterill.

Selected apparently by Keith Dawe.

And Keith Dawe's business is?

(a) financial services or (b) RECRUITMENT

[bs3]

15 hours ago, NickJ said:

^{What other Championship club with Premiership ambition would have a management team with the playing and managerial experience of:}

Johnson - played for whatever team his dad happened to be manager of and Kilmarnock; 36% managerial win rate in 3rd division

^{McAllister - I like "Macca", a lot, but us, Yeovil and Exeter; only recently got his coaching badges I believe, but he is mates with Johnson}

^{Holden -  played for most of the northern 3rd and 4th division teams; 20% managerial win rate at Oldham, but he is mates with Johnson}

In all seriousness, just what other club would entertain this farce?

Having a very average playing careers don't stop you being a top class manager.

What we should be looking at is their record in coaching and managing and quite frankly their record is lamentable.

The point being are management team are clueless, inept, out of their depth and should of all been sacked months ago.