Management team: just sit back and ponder this

[bs3]

14 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

Current case in point; Gianfranco Zola. One of the greatest players ever but couldn`t manage a whelk stall.

His Birmingham team is above us in league. 

[View from the Dolman]

25 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

The point I am making, @Robbored and others, is that successful managers have either been previously successful managers at a lower level, OR have been top players at the level they are managing at. Dalglish has been mentioned, he went straight into top level management, but he had previously been a top player.

I am NOT saying that bad players cannot be good managers. What I am saying is that an average player is unlikely to become a good manager at a higher level, unless they have proved themselves as a decent manager at a lower level first.

@Big C has mentioned Nigel Adkins, Sean Dyche and Eddie Howe as examples of players from lower levels who have taken teams to the Premiership.

Adkins started with promotions at Bangor and then Scunthorpe before taking Southampton to the Premiership.

Dyche was captain for many of the teams he played for, started out coaching youth teams, was assistant at Watford in the Championship, and was involved in England under 21's, and thus had demonstrated leadership credentials.

Howe as a player was selected for England Under 21's and was transferred to Portsmouth who were then in the Premiership; after injury finished his career he started at Bournemouth as youth coach and reserve coach; also notable is that he was so popular at Bournemouth that the fans raised the transfer fee to buy him back from Portsmouth after his knee injury.

@1953 this is a forum where people express opinions. My post is not moaning or deja vu, as I am trying to explain why I feel that our managerial set up is doomed to under achievement relative to the resource provided by Mr Lansdown AND the supporters.

Look at the other 23 Championship teams and I do not think there is a single one whose management team has a less impressive pedigree.

What makes Paul Heckingbottom's pedigree any better?

[NickJ]

2 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

What makes Paul Heckingbottom's pedigree any better?

63% win rate as caretaker manager in League One, for a start.

Compare with 36% Johnson.

[glynriley]

2 minutes ago, bs3 said:

His Birmingham team is above us in league. 

Gary Rowett's Birmingham team is above us in the table.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 hours ago, redredrobin5 said:

WHY does Lee Johnson continually get the stick. Has anyone stopped and thought about the players and there attitudes? I know LJ picks the system etc, BUT how often have you gone to work and worked for someone you don't really get on with? What does that do to your commitment or performance? Do you just accept it and keep performing for that Business.........if so, why doesn't the players?

 

The players need to a responsible for this. They won a few games and go on a good run, only then to be humiliated by losing 5-0 to Preston and feeling responsible enough for their performance to refund the players......then they go and beat Wolves 3-1. They re not consistent and i would urge all the fans to get behind the team in its entirety and prey the players perform and keep us in the league.

 

the fans can create a lot of negativity. Yes we are the ones who fund the club and pay to watch some of the poor performances, but the with hunt for LJ is not getting anywhere. The board have made the choice to back LJ and now its time for us to do that i think.

I don't see LJ being to blame for all this. if the players disliked him and the coaching staff that much or didn't like the formation that much then they would be a lot more reluctant to keep picking up Wins and a few draws.

 

Come on, get behind them.

 

PS - No im not LJ's Dad!!!! i am a rugby fan, football fan and was part of the stadium build and we as Bristol Sport supporters have suffered a little this season....but lets get behind them all, support the brand and look forward.

Sums this up

Support the 'Brand' ????

Jeaus Wept

A Bristol Sport Employee by the sounds o; it

[Northern Red]

6 minutes ago, bs3 said:

His Birmingham team is above us in league. 

Base it on form since Zola came in and I imagine they'd be lower.

[View from the Dolman]

8 minutes ago, NickJ said:

63% win rate as caretaker manager in League One, for a start.

Compare with 36% Johnson.

...and Dean Smith? Is it because Smith has 2 League One manager of the month awards compared to Johnson's 1?

[Kid in the Riot]

43 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Then perhaps we might see something resembling a settled team, and even perhaps a modicum of genuine progression from the u.23's rather than just empty talk with the odd appearance from the likes of Dowling and Vyner thrown in randomly in order to provide mind boggling 'evidence' that the project is very much on track..

That was one of the things that infuriated me most about Lansdown's interview on Saturday. His insistence that there was a 'pathway' for academy players coming up through the u-23s into the first team. What on earth is his evidence for this? He has bought player after player for LJ and will continue to do so to desperately try and ensure his man succeeds.

[1bristolcity]

2 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

What a quite ridiculous post.Do keep up with the fun of being on otib and reflecting on past glories.  We all want the good days to return

My post ridiculous? The title is sit back and consider...and then goes on an on and on reflecting just how carp everything is at the moment, we are in the Championship, and fighting to stay in it, that should be the cue to support the team not relish our  demise in relegation.

What good days?

The club has spent the majority of it life in the lower leagues, we have a fantastic stadium, and are not likely to go bust any time soon, like some others, in fact these are the Good Times( when you sit back and reflect)

As I say support not condemn, especially at this time, and if you can't support, please just just keep your negative thoughts to yourself, 

 

 

[NickJ]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

...and Dean Smith? Is it because Smith has 2 League One manager of the month awards compared to Johnson's 1?

Was captain at most of the clubs he played for including Sheffield Wednesday. Leadership credentials.

Youth coach and assistant manager at Orient.

Head of youth, then caretaker, then permanent manager at Walsall. Left for Brentford with Walsall fourth in the league.

[shelts]

Graham Taylor

Arsene Wenger 

Lawrie Mcmenemy 

l get the point of the original poster though. 

[Fishponds_Red]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Does my post above help?

Exactly.

And I would add. 

Our one and only decent managerial appointment since Johnson Senior was Cotterill.

Selected apparently by Keith Dawe.

And Keith Dawe's business is?

(a) financial services or (b) RECRUITMENT

Does Steve Cotterill pay you to mention him in almost every post you make on OTIB?

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, shelts said:

Graham Taylor

Arsene Wenger 

Lawrie Mcmenemy 

l get the point of the original poster though. 

Ok but have any of the above played ' Championship Manager ' ? 

That's the real test . 

[BobBobSuperBob]

13 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Playing career has little or no bearing on managerial success. Correct career development, training, practice and experience at increasingly more demanding at increasingly higher standards roles yes.

Invest close to 50 M on a stadium, 15m on players and their wages yet employ 3 coaches that have zero championship experience, zero career development in their roles at a level higher than L1, zero achievement of promotion in any previous role in coaching. It is very hard to understand on a recruitment level what assets any of them bring to the club apart from they all get on and are mates and on what basis they were chosen. 

Seems a very strange way to go about creating a Premiership side to me. 

Particularly as the whole basis of the Project is to buy young players and develop them through excellent coaching 

[Fordy62]

3 hours ago, redredrobin5 said:

WHY does Lee Johnson continually get the stick. Has anyone stopped and thought about the players and there attitudes? I know LJ picks the system etc, BUT how often have you gone to work and worked for someone you don't really get on with? What does that do to your commitment or performance? Do you just accept it and keep performing for that Business.........if so, why doesn't the players?

 

The players need to a responsible for this. They won a few games and go on a good run, only then to be humiliated by losing 5-0 to Preston and feeling responsible enough for their performance to refund the players......then they go and beat Wolves 3-1. They re not consistent and i would urge all the fans to get behind the team in its entirety and prey the players perform and keep us in the league.

 

the fans can create a lot of negativity. Yes we are the ones who fund the club and pay to watch some of the poor performances, but the with hunt for LJ is not getting anywhere. The board have made the choice to back LJ and now its time for us to do that i think.

I don't see LJ being to blame for all this. if the players disliked him and the coaching staff that much or didn't like the formation that much then they would be a lot more reluctant to keep picking up Wins and a few draws.

 

Come on, get behind them.

 

PS - No im not LJ's Dad!!!! i am a rugby fan, football fan and was part of the stadium build and we as Bristol Sport supporters have suffered a little this season....but lets get behind them all, support the brand and look forward.

Ironically you raise a very good point. 

When im working for someone I don't get on with my work suffers horrendously especially when they're a complete clown who I could do a better job than. I hate coming to work and my performance suffers. 

So yes, your point is a very good one. 

Do you think Lee Johnson has us stronger than the sum of our parts? I'm afraid not even close. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Fordy62 said:

Ironically you raise a very good point. 

When im working for someone I don't get on with my work suffers horrendously especially when they're a complete clown who I could do a better job than. I hate coming to work and my performance suffers. 

So yes, your point is a very good one. 

Do you think Lee Johnson has us stronger than the sum of our parts? I'm afraid not even close. 

Never mind that Fordy

Just support the Brand 

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Never mind that Fordy

Just support the Brand 

I'm with you Bob, I'm just not a fan of people confusing negativity with realism!

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

54 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

My post ridiculous? The title is sit back and consider...and then goes on an on and on reflecting just how carp everything is at the moment, we are in the Championship, and fighting to stay in it, that should be the cue to support the team not relish our  demise in relegation.

What good days?

The club has spent the majority of it life in the lower leagues, we have a fantastic stadium, and are not likely to go bust any time soon, like some others, in fact these are the Good Times( when you sit back and reflect)

As I say support not condemn, especially at this time, and if you can't support, please just just keep your negative thoughts to yourself, 

 

 

I don't think you've quite spotted the overdose of irony in Ivorguy's reply...

[shelts]

33 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Ok but have any of the above played ' Championship Manager ' ? 

That's the real test . 

Me and LJ useless at it 

[Robbored]

3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

I suggest you better research Keegan's record at Fulham then, a 62% win rate and promotion is not my (or anyone else's) definition of a "dismal flop".

I'd forgotten that he'd managed Flum. 

 

[Robbored]

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No, he overcame that if it actually ever happened.

It was a knee injury that finished Clough's career.

I saw a documentary about Clough just after he'd passed. He never fully recovered from the back injury and although he came back he was never the player he'd been previously. 

[1bristolcity]

2 hours ago, Northern Red said:

Base it on form since Zola came in and I imagine they'd be lower.

Won 2 in 22.

[bissellredhead]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I saw a documentary about Clough just after he'd passed. He never fully recovered from the back injury and although he came back he was never the player he'd been previously. 

Just done a quick google - 251 goals from 274 starts. That's an incredible record, shame his playing career was cut short. We'll never know of course but had his playing career been a full one would he have gone into management? 

[Fiale]

3 hours ago, NickJ said:

 

The point I am making, @Robbored and others, is that successful managers have either been previously successful managers at a lower level, OR have been top players at the level they are managing at. Dalglish has been mentioned, he went straight into top level management, but he had previously been a top player.

I am NOT saying that bad players cannot be good managers. What I am saying is that an average player is unlikely to become a good manager at a higher level, unless they have proved themselves as a decent manager at a lower level first.

@Big C has mentioned Nigel Adkins, Sean Dyche and Eddie Howe as examples of players from lower levels who have taken teams to the Premiership.

Adkins started with promotions at Bangor and then Scunthorpe before taking Southampton to the Premiership.

Dyche was captain for many of the teams he played for, started out coaching youth teams, was assistant at Watford in the Championship, and was involved in England under 21's, and thus had demonstrated leadership credentials.

Howe as a player was selected for England Under 21's and was transferred to Portsmouth who were then in the Premiership; after injury finished his career he started at Bournemouth as youth coach and reserve coach; also notable is that he was so popular at Bournemouth that the fans raised the transfer fee to buy him back from Portsmouth after his knee injury.

@1953 this is a forum where people express opinions. My post is not moaning or deja vu, as I am trying to explain why I feel that our managerial set up is doomed to under achievement relative to the resource provided by Mr Lansdown AND the supporters.

Look at the other 23 Championship teams and I do not think there is a single one whose management team has a less impressive pedigree.

 

 

I think your point in the original post was pretty obvious, people have just chosen to mis-represent it.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

I saw a documentary about Clough just after he'd passed. He never fully recovered from the back injury and although he came back he was never the player he'd been previously. 

Nah - he made a comeback two years after his horrendous knee injury but obviously hadn't fully recovered....no back injury....

[Ivorguy]

2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I'm with you Bob, I'm just not a fan of people confusing negativity with realism!

If I could give 100 likes to this I would.

Nothing on otib I think annoys me more as tho failure to see the wider picture is necessary if you are a real fan!!

 

[Red-Robbo]

18 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

The point is that a playing career is largely irrelevant. Many of the best managers in the Premier League had distinctly average playing careers - Mourinho, Wenger and Klopp to name a few. 

 

Absolutely correct. Rafael Benitez's  team currently sits second in this division - yet (after a youth career with Real) he played in Spanish third tier sides - smaller than most L2 sides.

We can also name vast numbers of great players/bad managers.

The OP is doing his characteristic casting about for reasons to castigate the owner and wring his hands and say "oh woe is me. We're the worst club in the world...." 

[Natchfever]

9 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Absolutely correct. Rafael Benitez's  team currently sits second in this division - yet (after a youth career with Real) he played in Spanish third tier sides - smaller than most L2 sides.

We can also name vast numbers of great players/bad managers.

The OP is doing his characteristic casting about for reasons to castigate the owner and wring his hands and say "oh woe is me. We're the worst club in the world...." 

Regardless of agendas (perceived or otherwise) of the OP do you consider our holy trinity of coaches as being Championship quality as a team?

Genuine question, because I don't. None of them have anyone to learn their trade from, and I cannot imagine another side at this level would entertain such a set up.

[glynriley]

59 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Regardless of agendas (perceived or otherwise) of the OP do you consider our holy trinity of coaches as being Championship quality as a team?

Genuine question, because I don't. None of them have anyone to learn their trade from, and I cannot imagine another side at this level would entertain such a set up.

Not exactly Best, Law & Charlton are they.

More like Curly, Larry & Moe.

[NickJ]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Absolutely correct. Rafael Benitez's  team currently sits second in this division - yet (after a youth career with Real) he played in Spanish third tier sides - smaller than most L2 sides.

We can also name vast numbers of great players/bad managers.

The OP is doing his characteristic casting about for reasons to castigate the owner and wring his hands and say "oh woe is me. We're the worst club in the world...." 

If that is what you think you either have not read or do not understand the point I have made and explained. 

Seriously try reading them. Your example Benitez like all the others quoted, and I have illustrated, may not have been a top player but earned his stripes with success managerially at lower clubs before progressing. 

Johnson and his mates have done neither of these things.