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Management team: just sit back and ponder this


NickJ

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2 hours ago, Loon plage said:

Regardless of agendas (perceived or otherwise) of the OP do you consider our holy trinity of coaches as being Championship quality as a team?

Genuine question, because I don't. None of them have anyone to learn their trade from, and I cannot imagine another side at this level would entertain such a set up.

I just think they aren't much cop. Where they played in their playing days is irrelevant.

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Just now, Red-Robbo said:

I just think they aren't much cop. Where they played in their playing days is irrelevant.

 

Does it matter that the three of them have no real coaching or managerial experience - with us being a 50-100 million £ club in the Championship ? That was the point the op was making - 

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16 minutes ago, NickJ said:

If that is what you think you either have not read or do not understand the point I have made and explained. 

Seriously try reading them. Your example Benitez like all the others quoted, and I have illustrated, may not have been a top player but earned his stripes with success managerially at lower clubs before progressing. 

Johnson and his mates have done neither of these things. 

I agree there, Nick. But no one "earns their stripes" straight away.

Dean smith and Paul Heckingbotham are two examples of managers from teams above us that hadn't hitherto managed Championship clubs. there are probably more if i gave it some serious thought.

You see, I don't think it was the appointment of Lee Johnson that was Lansdown's big mistake; I think the retention of Lee Johnson after his record-breaking run of shyte is Lansdown's big mistake!

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9 minutes ago, NickJ said:

If that is what you think you either have not read or do not understand the point I have made and explained. 

Seriously try reading them. Your example Benitez like all the others quoted, and I have illustrated, may not have been a top player but earned his stripes with success managerially at lower clubs before progressing. 

Johnson and his mates have done neither of these things

 

Amid all these names being mentioned, who would you suggest that fits your criteria that would realistically want to come here? (Genuine question)

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20 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I agree there, Nick. But no one "earns their stripes" straight away.

Dean smith and Paul Heckingbotham are two examples of managers from teams above us that hadn't hitherto managed Championship clubs. there are probably more if i gave it some serious thought.

You see, I don't think it was the appointment of Lee Johnson that was Lansdown's big mistake; I think the retention of Lee Johnson after his record-breaking run of shyte is Lansdown's big mistake!

The appointment of the inexperienced LJ, who had done absolutely nothing to recommend him for the job, was always ridiculous imo. but the retention of LJ is beyond ridiculous.

It's not really a question of which is SL's greater mistake, they are both gargantuan errors with the second simply compounding the first.

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Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

The appointment of the inexperienced LJ, who had done absolutely nothing to recommend him for the job, was always ridiculous imo. but the retention of LJ is beyond ridiculous.

It's not really a question of which is SL's greater mistake, they are both gargantuan errors with the second simply compounding the first.

Yet look at the posts here from September and back: it's all "Lee is a great fit for City"; "will he be poached by a bigger club?"; "PL a real possibility!".

A lot of fans with very, very selective memories.

He made a great start at City, and we continued that at the start of the season. you may think I'm mad, but the ground improvements may have had a lot to do with that in retrospect. Newer and classier surroundings lifted more than just us fans.

I think the championship experience thing is a red herring however: the already relegated Rotherham were guided into the drop zone initially by an experienced manager. And as I pointed out in my earlier post, there are teams above us helmed by managers in their first championship season.

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6 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I'm with you Bob, I'm just not a fan of people confusing negativity with realism!

you arent a fan of yourself then?

Normally a sensible poster Fordy, but recently (not sure when it started) you have let a dislike of LJ (or at least him still being manager) cloud your posts.

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4 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I agree there, Nick. But no one "earns their stripes" straight away.

Dean smith and Paul Heckingbotham are two examples of managers from teams above us that hadn't hitherto managed Championship clubs. there are probably more if i gave it some serious thought.

You see, I don't think it was the appointment of Lee Johnson that was Lansdown's big mistake; I think the retention of Lee Johnson after his record-breaking run of shyte is Lansdown's big mistake!

No but their credentials, as I have already explained and demonstrated, were superior to those of Johnson and his mates.

 

4 hours ago, Chris_Brown said:

Amid all these names being mentioned, who would you suggest that fits your criteria that would realistically want to come here? (Genuine question)

None of them. I haven't suggested any of the names on this thread should or would come here, and if you think that is what I am saying, there is a failure to understand issue.

Not saying you are deliberately doing this, but certainly some are, as agreed by:

8 hours ago, Fiale said:

I think your point in the original post was pretty obvious, people have just chosen to mis-represent it.

 

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11 hours ago, NickJ said:

63% win rate as caretaker manager in League One, for a start.

Compare with 36% Johnson.

 

If you're comparing Heckingbottom to LJ, he has a lower win rate at this level than LJ, so that small sample of games managed in L1 doesn't make much difference. Also willing to bet it wouldn't be 63% if he hadn't taken over a team that had won 8 of their last 9 with 20 games remaining, and had instead been chucked in the deep end with Oldham in a relegation fight as his first managerial job.

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12 minutes ago, NickJ said:

No but their credentials, as I have already explained and demonstrated, were superior to those of Johnson and his mates.

 

 

Not so, Nick. Dean Smith's Brentford did the double on us, but he was managing Walsall when we beat them 8-2.  He's never managed in the Championship and only played at 3rd and 4th tier levels. Brentford are 12th.....

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6 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Not so, Nick. Dean Smith's Brentford did the double on us, but he was managing Walsall when we beat them 8-2.  He's never managed in the Championship and only played at 3rd and 4th tier levels. Brentford are 12th.....

Sorry RR but you are wrong.

My post above (clearly you have not read all of this!

Was captain at most of the clubs he played for including Sheffield Wednesday. Leadership credentials.

Youth coach and assistant manager at Orient.

Head of youth, then caretaker, then permanent manager at Walsall. Left for Brentford with Walsall fourth in the league.

Johnson inferior credentials, he cannot claim any of these things.

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6 hours ago, JHAGa said:

 

If you're comparing Heckingbottom to LJ, he has a lower win rate at this level than LJ, so that small sample of games managed in L1 doesn't make much difference. Also willing to bet it wouldn't be 63% if he hadn't taken over a team that had won 8 of their last 9 with 20 games remaining, and had instead been chucked in the deep end with Oldham in a relegation fight as his first managerial job.

I am dealing in facts not conjecture and the fact is Heckingbottom had a far superior win record in League One than Johnson.

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The management 'team' is a strange one. Everything about the club - the stadium, investment etc. - screams ambition.  Everything but the management team, which screams anything but ambition - it screams mediocrity.  Its like we want to get the Premier League, but not really. Strange. Lansdown has bought himself a Bugatti, but has Ernie the fastest milkman in the West driving it. 

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4 hours ago, NickJ said:

I am dealing in facts not conjecture and the fact is Heckingbottom had a far superior win record in League One than Johnson.

conveniently ignoring the part where the poster pointed out Heckingbottom has an inferior win record in the Championship, which is the more relevant division.

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13 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

conveniently ignoring the part where the poster pointed out Heckingbottom has an inferior win record in the Championship, which is the more relevant division.

The more relevant stat than win % would be ppg. Compare that and I doubt there's much between the two.

There is then the point that in any case Heckingbottom is doing a far better job as he has Barnsley comfortably in mid-table in his first full season having barely spent a penny whereas LJ had a war chest of £14m.

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Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

The more relevant stat then win % would be ppg. Compare that and I doubt there's much between the two.

Indeed, but it was Nick who brought up the win ratios, so stuck to what he was comparing.

For the record, Johnson's ppg in the championship is 1.38. Heckingbottoms is 1.33. As you say, little between them, though Johnson has the better one.

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1 minute ago, JamesBCFC said:

Indeed, but it was Nick who brought up the win ratios, so stuck to what he was comparing.

For the record, Johnson's ppg in the championship is 1.38. Heckingbottoms is 1.33. As you say, little between them, though Johnson has the better one.

Shows the contrast between this season and last in terms of LJ then given his ppg this season is 1.07.

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10 hours ago, NickJ said:

No but their credentials, as I have already explained and demonstrated, were superior to those of Johnson and his mates.

 

None of them. I haven't suggested any of the names on this thread should or would come here, and if you think that is what I am saying, there is a failure to understand issue.

Not saying you are deliberately doing this, but certainly some are, as agreed by:

 

Perhaps I have worded that question poorly. 

You criticise the appointment of the three for lack of experience both playing & management to your required level, who (and i don't mean someone named in this thread, just someone that ticks your boxes) I'm just genuinely trying to understand, would fit your criteria and be willing to come here to coach? 

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4 hours ago, NickJ said:

Sorry RR but you are wrong.

My post above (clearly you have not read all of this!

Was captain at most of the clubs he played for including Sheffield Wednesday. Leadership credentials.

Youth coach and assistant manager at Orient.

Head of youth, then caretaker, then permanent manager at Walsall. Left for Brentford with Walsall fourth in the league.

Johnson inferior credentials, he cannot claim any of these things.

Wow! Youth coach at Orient! 

And was also manager the season we couldn't stop beating Walsall.

I'm sure I could find other examples.

Just accept, not all managers have played at top levels or managed in the division they are in, before.

I don't mind criticism of Johnson, but at least don't weaken the argument with a non-sequitur. 

Not only is "level played at" irrelevant but there even have even been quite successful managers out there who never played at a senior level. There are also umpteen who do OK in a division they have never managed at before - Gary Johnson for example.

Now if you'd started his thread by saying Johnson's record at Oldham and Barnsley did not seem a strong enough basis to have appointed him to a Championship club, then I would have agreed with you. But you didn't. 

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