The Project - Are we in a place to make it succeed ?

[CyderInACan]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Southamptons youth player of the season is from Long Ashton! Kills me

Ha! Typical. But will he go on to be any good though? 

One Bristol born lad who is also doing very well at the mo, but who also sadly left his hometown, is Ellis Genge who is doing very for Leicester in the Rugby Prem. 

Ive never really thought of Bristol as a hotbed of sporting talent TBF. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

3 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

All the talk of Saints having the pick o the best players from Bristol, Bath and surrounding areas, but how many of the lads from "our" area have gone on to become Champ/Prem players through their system? Genuine question. I can't think of any but might be wrong. Can only think of Jack Butland but he got his break with Brum. 

 

I remember 442 did a feature a few years ago about which towns/cities the English players in the premiership came from. I think there were only about four from what would be considered our patch against God knows how many from Manchester, the North East or Merseyside

[1960maaan]

50 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The academy .. 

At this point the regional centre of excellence is Southampton, not Bristol City. This is not down to being cat 1 or cat 2 its down to Southampton FC no matter who they are run by having a fundamental belief that youth development is a building block.

Got a talented kid send him to the Saints is what you hear everywhere. City are not the club of choice.

At Bristol City Mr Lansdown changes philosophy by the season. Southampton keep to a commitment to youth development measurable by decades. it is a relentless pursuit of producing players

City via coaching schools, development centres, the community trust, the player pathway need to be everywhere to alter that City are not the club of choice, they are not close to being highly visible even in Bristol. 

 

I think to a certain extent our academy has been playing catch up. With Southampton being much higher profile and embracing the idea of academies fully some time ago , gave them a real head start. There is a lot of work to do, and having Cat 1 academies pinching young kids for a pittance doesn't help. As you say we need to be more of a presence in the area, give any young talent a real idea that there is a pathway  to the first team which is achievable .
I have a mate (and admittedly I haven't had a face to face about it) who's boy plays for a couple of teams and they come up against both local clubs set up's . I have seen him mention that Rovers academy is better organised than ours and they have the real chance of being a good side in a few years. I know this is only one opinion but it is not good that with all the perceived dominance and backing we still have no edge in real terms.

[Malago]

The problem is that trying to turn a profit producing/acquiring young players. Crewe as was  lbut on a grander scale, is not necessarily compatible with long term success on the field.  To achieve promotion to the Prem we need to keep our best players and augment the squad with top level Championship players, which means running the club at a loss.

i suppose it is possible to reach the Prem on a tight budget, but you need a very good manager to do that, which are far and few between.

 

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

All the talk of Saints having the pick o the best players from Bristol, Bath and surrounding areas, but how many of the lads from "our" area have gone on to become Champ/Prem players through their system? Genuine question. I can't think of any but might be wrong. Can only think of Jack Butland but he got his break with Brum. 

 

Jason Dodd, from Writhlington near Radstock, had a decent career at Saints is one that i can remember.

[The Humble Realist]

5 minutes ago, Malago said:

The problem is that trying to turn a profit producing/acquiring young players. Crewe as was  lbut on a grander scale, is not necessarily compatible with long term success on the field.  To achieve promotion to the Prem we need to keep our best players and augment the squad with top level Championship players, which means running the club at a loss.

i suppose it is possible to reach the Prem on a tight budget, but you need a very good manager to do that, which are far and few between.

 

Exactly right...selling kodjia was great for our off the pitch ambitions....but really bad for our on the pitch ambitions. ...it's very difficult to do both successfully. ..

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, TRL said:

Our philosophy as stated by SL is to use our academy and buy proven older players to blend the young talented squad.

 

If this true can some one explain

Lucic

Brownhill

O'Dowda

Engval

Magnusson

Smith

Moore

Girolamo

Mckoulsky

And On loan Abraham

 

Is this called producing your own youth products now? As it still looks to me like we are buying and recruiting talent from other teams academies not really developing our own too well.

 

That's nearly a teams worth of young talent in the way of our white elephant academy bought or recruited in the past year

Our academy players are so young I think these were bought to bridge the gap. McCoulskey, De Girolamo and even Brownhill didn't cost that much to add. Of course this is my opinion and not fact. Hopefully next season we see a few more of our own start stepping up when need be. O'Leary, Kelly and Dowling I would like to see get a handful appearance each in any competitions. They'll all be a year older and more mature. Still have a long way to go in the academy but we have to start somewhere. Can't judge it after this one season. Results on the pitch have called into question the entire process which I think is unfair. It's always evolving and had we been midtable(we should have been) then this wouldn't even come into question. 

[shelts]

2 hours ago, 22A said:

"B) Our scouting / recruiting historically , with the odd noticeable exception (SC) has been hap hazard and messy and we've never had a good , structured , established scouting network and currently"

I'll disagree there. Scouting & Recruitment, maybe not excellent, but were adequate from the earliest days until (please feel free to discus), Jordan left and Lumsden became Manager. Before that though, there were some notable omissions (others will think of more), Paul Cheesley was born and grew up in Gordano, but City missed him and ended up buying him from that other local team; Norwich! Mike Summerbee was a reject from City's Youth Team, so Swindon snapped him up and later sold him to Manchester City when they were one of England's top teams and he also played for England in the 1970 World Cup.

Marcus Stewart

Andy Johnson

Bobby Ford

 

you could keep going with that one but I get your point, you have to offer a pathway . Have we got enough locals in our side now, are the academy lads up to it ?

No is the answer 

[robin_unreliant]

20 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

McCoulskey, De Girolamo and even Brownhill didn't cost that much to add. 

In which case why not buy them in rather than spend more on an Academy that largely turns out players who end up in non-league football? Would be great to have a cat 1 academy conveyor belt like Southampton but the half-way house that we have just seems to be a waste of money sadly. If we got to the Prem maybe the extra income could be used to ramp it up but as we are I don't see what value we get from the money spent.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

All the talk of Saints having the pick o the best players from Bristol, Bath and surrounding areas, but how many of the lads from "our" area have gone on to become Champ/Prem players through their system? Genuine question. I can't think of any but might be wrong. Can only think of Jack Butland but he got his break with Brum. 

 

It's a fair point but they use these as regional bases , Bath is just an example 

Not local as such but Gareth Bale went to the Bath one I believe 

[BCFC Rich]

We do actually have 6 former academy players on the books, which is joint 2nd highest in the division. This does get a bump because of Scott G and Cotts but it's not as terrible as some might think. In recent years we have been able to tempt the odd player away from other the academies of 'bigger' clubs. Also recruiting young players to develop makes sense - if you look at best prem academies, Man U, Southampton etc they often recruit players between ages of 14-17 from other academies and they still seem them as their own graduates (when sometimes they have only been there a year), I see no reason we shouldn't be doing the same. 

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

It's a shame Southampton have control of bath . When I can ride there on a bike in 30 minutes. We definitely need cat 1 status .

Southampton also oversee the Yeovil Town academy!

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

In which case why not buy them in rather than spend more on an Academy that largely turns out players who end up in non-league football? Would be great to have a cat 1 academy conveyor belt like Southampton but the half-way house that we have just seems to be a waste of money sadly. If we got to the Prem maybe the extra income could be used to ramp it up but as we are I don't see what value we get from the money spent.

It's a fair enough point but SL feels investment into the academy will pay dividends down the line. It could be 10 years but we don't need to churn out first teamers every year. Players like Burns and possibly Bobby Reid being sold every couple of years is a good start. If we are to be a top organisation then we need an academy. Don't think operating costs of the academy count towards FFP either so anytime we sell a player it's added money. The academy at present is focused on developing the 16-18 year olds instead of having it full of 20-22 year olds like many academies. The downside is that they aren't really an option to play just yet. The upside is in a few years we could net good money for them or have some good players for our squad. Obviously, I'm all for the academy and some won't be but if we get it right(and it's a big if but seems they are focused on it) it'll be an excellent tool to make money and keep wages to a minimum. 

[Red Exile]

For me the problem with the "project" as with the "pillars"is that it's basically common sense repackaged as a strategy. Which football club on earth wouldn't want any of the things that underpin either the development of young players and bringing them through into the first team whilst turning a profit on those who move on, or to make their club financially sustainable?

The impressive thing isn't having a wish list, it's delivering on your wishes. On self-sufficiency we have a decent stadium, much progress has been made after the abortive Ashton Vale efforts. With the identification, development and coaching of young players the jury is surely still out...this is a very long term process which has to go hand in hand with a plan to recruit players who can deliver in the here and now.

[Bat Fastard]

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

It's a fair enough point but SL feels investment into the academy will pay dividends down the line. It could be 10 years but we don't need to churn out first teamers every year. Players like Burns and possibly Bobby Reid being sold every couple of years is a good start. If we are to be a top organisation then we need an academy. Don't think operating costs of the academy count towards FFP either so anytime we sell a player it's added money. The academy at present is focused on developing the 16-18 year olds instead of having it full of 20-22 year olds like many academies. The downside is that they aren't really an option to play just yet. The upside is in a few years we could net good money for them or have some good players for our squad. Obviously, I'm all for the academy and some won't be but if we get it right(and it's a big if but seems they are focused on it) it'll be an excellent tool to make money and keep wages to a minimum. 

It must be very rare for a 17 or 18 year old to break into a Championship team and Tammy is just a bit of a freak of nature to be so strong and skillful and tall at such a young age - that is why we coundn't afford to buy him.  If one player every year or two makes it, and we sell a couple to defray costs, it will have been a success. We should certainly be poaching youngsters like the lad from Luton, from lower league clubs.  It feels like it is going OK - especially when you consider that we generally play younger players in our Under 18s and Under 23s.

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 hours ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Jason Dodd, from Writhlington near Radstock, had a decent career at Saints is one that i can remember.

Ashley Barnes is from Paulton(?). I think he would have gone on to much better things but for a couple of really bad injuries.

[chinapig]

6 hours ago, TRL said:

Ie my white elephant remark. How long have we had an academy now? And what have we really ever produced.  Rosenior and Brennan ,maybe you could class Hill and Coles as they went up not down from us.

 

Interesting that the only time we had a few decent young graduates was when lennartson came in and played them... because he was a good coach/manager who knew the meaning of promoting youth.

 

We can pump all the money in the world into the academy, but until we have a head coach/manager that has the balls to use it, rather than think about their own career first then imho it is pointless 

It's precisely because they have such short tenures that most managers aren't committed to long term development.

[Bobfish]

Good post bob. Sorry if anyone has already covered this, but Tinnion was on RB months ago and I think some of what he said may reveal why our academy may have suffered. I apologise for any inaccuracies. As a category two our catchment area is fairly small, I think he said something like an hour’s travel or a double figure in miles, whilst for category one it spans the whole country. The major issues he mentioned was that a category one club can take any player under the age of twelve from a club of a lower category and only have to pay £80,000 in compensation to the club. He mentioned this happened to two of our bright potentials who are now at youth academies in the premiership. Nothing is secret anymore too, all the scouts know anyone with potential from eight years old and on. A premiership team can just wave their top club status, put stars in these kids’ eyes, buy a house for the family or something, and take, for them, a tiny financial gamble whilst stealing the future from a club. If the kid’s got no loyalty then the club has no chance. So the FA is at fault, but they won’t change it as they make so much money from the premier league. Oh, and as they’re complete f**kwits.

I guess we have tried doing something similar too, using our perceived status and focus on the project to lure young (not academy, but u23) plays like smith etc from other clubs. You could argue that with the young players breaking into the first team or getting loans out in what is a structured “growth pattern” that it is working. We just have to see if those on/were on loan, Moore, Vyner etc, feature next season.

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Bobfish said:

Good post bob. Sorry if anyone has already covered this, but Tinnion was on RB months ago and I think some of what he said may reveal why our academy may have suffered. I apologise for any inaccuracies. As a category two our catchment area is fairly small, I think he said something like an hour’s travel or a double figure in miles, whilst for category one it spans the whole country. The major issues he mentioned was that a category one club can take any player under the age of twelve from a club of a lower category and only have to pay £80,000 in compensation to the club. He mentioned this happened to two of our bright potentials who are now at youth academies in the premiership. Nothing is secret anymore too, all the scouts know anyone with potential from eight years old and on. A premiership team can just wave their top club status, put stars in these kids’ eyes, buy a house for the family or something, and take, for them, a tiny financial gamble whilst stealing the future from a club. If the kid’s got no loyalty then the club has no chance. So the FA is at fault, but they won’t change it as they make so much money from the premier league. Oh, and as they’re complete f**kwits.

 

I guess we have tried doing something similar too, using our perceived status and focus on the project to lure young (not academy, but u23) plays like smith etc from other clubs. You could argue that with the young players breaking into the first team or getting loans out in what is a structured “growth pattern” that it is working. We just have to see if those on/were on loan, Moore, Vyner etc, feature next season.

 

 

Bristol City can attract players from Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire, South Wales, the midlands .. And on. It is not a small area to work within.

Cat 1 academies can poach players and City can poach players from those beneath in the food chain. Bristol City voted FOR this arrangement.

Nothing is secret anymore too, all the scouts know anyone with potential from eight years old and on ... At that age kids are within the development stage and its hard to know what they are, they are children. Potential is subjective and often based on bigger, faster, stronger v areas of ability which develop post development stage.

What clubs like Southampton do is provide training for kids who are not meeting their academy profiles via development centres. This means children can remain playing with their junior clubs, but receive focused training they will most likely not get at grass roots clubs, if they develop to the required standard they can then move into the clubs academy. Kids can remain within this form of pathway for years ... Bristol City cannot compete here because they do not provide these opportunities for local kids.

[Cider_boy]

I think the focus on youth is improving, better late than never.

For the last couple of years Bristol Sport/Community have been running after school sport sessions at the local school (in Somerset), that's football, rugby and basketball.

My assumption is that they are doing so at plenty of other schools in the area.

It will take time, but will start to help establish City as the club for local talent to go to (and for City to spot local talent at an early age)

We are behind where we should be on this, but better to start now than not at all. Seems that SL has decided to take the long-term view to try to stop us being a yo-yo club, moving away from changing manager every year or two as well. I hope he manages to achieve what he seems to be trying to, and proves many of us wrong about LJ (not that this is about him!)

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City can attract players from Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire, South Wales, the midlands .. And on. It is not a small area to work within.

Cat 1 academies can poach players and City can poach players from those beneath in the food chain. Bristol City voted FOR this arrangement.

Nothing is secret anymore too, all the scouts know anyone with potential from eight years old and on ... At that age kids are within the development stage and its hard to know what they are, they are children. Potential is subjective and often based on bigger, faster, stronger v areas of ability which develop post development stage.

What clubs like Southampton do is provide training for kids who are not meeting their academy profiles via development centres. This means children can remain playing with their junior clubs, but receive focused training they will most likely not get at grass roots clubs, if they develop to the required standard they can then move into the clubs academy. Kids can remain within this form of pathway for years ... Bristol City cannot compete here because they do not provide these opportunities for local kids.

Exactly what the Club were doing (Was involved at that time) in the late 80s early 90s before throwing all their eggs in one academy only basket

Very Frustrating 

[Major Isewater]

10 hours ago, TRL said:

Our philosophy as stated by SL is to use our academy and buy proven older players to blend the young talented squad.

 

If this true can some one explain

Lucic

Brownhill

O'Dowda

Engval

Magnusson

Smith

Moore

Girolamo

Mckoulsky

And On loan Abraham

 

Is this called producing your own youth products now? As it still looks to me like we are buying and recruiting talent from other teams academies not really developing our own too well.

 

That's nearly a teams worth of young talent in the way of our white elephant academy bought or recruited in the past year

We aren't good enough yet to have top academy boys threatening the first team .

These things take time and the recruitment of the players you mentioned is a benchmark for the  youngsters coming through .

Joe Bryan , Bobby Reid , Wes , now at Fleetwood have their careers almost in spite of the academy instead of thanks to it .

We have traditionally bought what we needed instead of giving youngsters a run in the team.

Largely because we are usually fighting relegation from the Championship or pushing for promotion from the Third division.

Other less wealthy clubs often have no choice but to throw their kids into the mix and hope they survive . The Gas have sold players for big money in the past because those players got valuable first team experience.

Our philosophy is good but takes time to implement successfully, even Southampton took years to get to where they are now .

[Jack Dawe]

1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

We aren't good enough yet to have top academy boys threatening the first team .

These things take time and the recruitment of the players you mentioned is a benchmark for the  youngsters coming through .

Joe Bryan , Bobby Reid , Wes , now at Fleetwood have their careers almost in spite of the academy instead of thanks to it .

We have traditionally bought what we needed instead of giving youngsters a run in the team.

Largely because we are usually fighting relegation from the Championship or pushing for promotion from the Third division.

Other less wealthy clubs often have no choice but to throw their kids into the mix and hope they survive . The Gas have sold players for big money in the past because those players got valuable first team experience.

Our philosophy is good but takes time to implement successfully, even Southampton took years to get to where they are now .

We took years to get where we are now, too. Which is, pretty much, where we were years ago.

[petehinton]

I've never understood this to be honest. We had that "five pillars" crap a few years back which disappeared without trace. 

'The project' is listed as having a good academy, good first 11, good ground, and good coaches - isn't that just called being a football club....?

[RumRed]

12 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

We took years to get where we are now, too. Which is, pretty much, where we were years ago.

How to ruin OTIB, condense the last 20 odd years into two sentences.

I might need to get a hobby now.

B*stard

 

[TRL]

40 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

We aren't good enough yet to have top academy boys threatening the first team .

These things take time and the recruitment of the players you mentioned is a benchmark for the  youngsters coming through .

Joe Bryan , Bobby Reid , Wes , now at Fleetwood have their careers almost in spite of the academy instead of thanks to it .

We have traditionally bought what we needed instead of giving youngsters a run in the team.

Largely because we are usually fighting relegation from the Championship or pushing for promotion from the Third division.

Other less wealthy clubs often have no choice but to throw their kids into the mix and hope they survive . The Gas have sold players for big money in the past because those players got valuable first team experience.

Our philosophy is good but takes time to implement successfully, even Southampton took years to get to where they are now .

See response from Jack below. That pretty much sums it up for me.

 

Truth be told we could have been in a great position if we had let Lennartson do what he was bought in to do... But we ****** that up as well, and with it the chance of making a decent youth setup with genuine routes to the first team.