St George

[Roger Red Hat]

10 hours ago, reddoh said:

Knowing you are the next best thing to God 

You are assuming God is a good thing?

[reddoh]

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

You are assuming God is a good thing?

No Idea not remotely religious , just quoting from a film, actual delivery of the line was by Sean Connery funny as he's scottish

[Red-Robbo]

15 hours ago, WessexPest said:

Interesting point about the Saxons originally settling as far north as Lothian and the Borders. It's fairly obscure and little discussed.

Our education system has a lot to answer for when it comes to general ignorance of English history. I'm fascinated by English history from 449 to the Norman conquest.

Alfred the Great is a hero - if it wasn't for him, the last Anglo-Saxon kingdom, Wessex, would likely have fallen and there may not have been an England at all.

He also sparked a new age of learning and set the wheels in motion for the English Navy. A remarkable man.

And yet, what is he remembered for? Something he almost certainly didn't do - burning some poxy cakes (actually in the legend sometimes it says it was bread).

I thoroughly recommend a book called "The White Horse King" for anyone interested in learning why he truly was deserving of the title "The Great".

Nicely put.

If you ever visit Winchester, pop into the Tourist Information Centre (next to County Hall). There a fibre-glass statue Alfred will regale you with his life story.

He's a bit of a big 'ead,  but then he had much to be proud about.

[The Bard]

18 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Although it is correct that he wasn't English. He was from what is now Turkey and is also the patron saint of Georgia.

and Catalonia

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

15 hours ago, pongo88 said:

Well this fits, as it's about Jesus visiting England. As this almost certainly never happened, and St George definitely never visited England the song and the patron saint go well together. While we're at it, why not replace the English cross of St George flag with a picture of King Zog of Albania. He definitely lived in England during his exile. 

Actually Blake's Jerusalem is far from patriotic.  Many critics believe he was being ironic in asking four questions:

• And did those feet in ancient time walk upon England'smountains green?
• And was the holy Lamb of God on England's pleasant pastures seen?
• And did the Countenance Divine shine forth upon our clouded hills?
• And was Jerusalem builded here among these dark Satanic Mills?

To which Blake would have felt that the answer was no to each!  The notion of building a New Jerusalem in England is believed to be a parody of the rampant nationalism that existed at the time in England (while the Napoleonic Wars were going on).

Good tune though!  Mind you, Hubert Parry who wrote the music also did not want it used in a patriotic context (he famously refused permission for it to be used by a nationalist organisation during the first World War and offered it instead to the Women's Institute in an attempt to avoid it being used as a patriotic rabble-rouser).

Oh, and Elgar hated the words to 'Land of Hope and Glory' too!

[Roger Red Hat]

36 minutes ago, The Bard said:

and Catalonia

Indeed.

And I was told yesterday that St George was actually from Palestine.

[Roger Red Hat]

14 minutes ago, matalan12 said:

 

See it's opinions like this that are exactly the problem. Just because that's how you see it, doesn't make it true. You're own view on what an England flag represents is completely different to mine and millions of others. People are far too easily influenced by the media.

Well, it's not the media is it. Are you seriously suggesting that the NF and mobs like the EDL haven't used the flag to represent their right wing nationalist outlook?

[SecretSam]

Those patritiotic right-wing groups who love all that "national day" carp would be interested to know the following:

"... a Roman soldier of Greek origin and officer in the Guard of Roman emperor Diocletian" Source: Wikipedia

So our patron saint...was a bl00dy horrible foreigner

 

Would rather celebrate Shakespeare's birthday, which is on the same day

[SecretSam]

19 hours ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

....... was not sure about flying my St Georges flag today, as I did not want to be mistaken for a meeting place for the National Front.

At least we don not live in a ridiculous PC nation where you are afraid to speak, or show any national pride.

 

 

tfj 

Actually, the PC bit means you're more likely to be able to share your views and speak your mind, not the opposite, which tends to come with authoritarian regimes, you know, where independent judges who disagree with someone's point of view are publicly castigated as "Enemies of the State", that sort of thing.

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Those patritiotic right-wing groups who love all that "national day" carp would be interested to know the following:

"... a Roman soldier of Greek origin and officer in the Guard of Roman emperor Diocletian" Source: Wikipedia

So our patron saint...was a bl00dy horrible foreigner

 

Would rather celebrate Shakespeare's birthday, which is on the same day

And I believe St Patrick was Welsh and St Andrew of course was a four-be-two.

I'm not sure why St George became attached to England - and a whole lot of other countries. 

The point of having a St George Day celebration however isn't to pay homage to an obscure and possibly mythical Roman, but to revel in our national identity and culture and celebrate the positives of being English.

I support Corbyn's call for a St George's Day bank holiday. And if people think that makes too many holidays in Spring maybe drop the late May one, or replace it with a later date.

[Spike]

42 minutes ago, matalan12 said:

 

See it's opinions like this that are exactly the problem. Just because that's how you see it, doesn't make it true. You're own view on what an England flag represents is completely different to mine and millions of others. People are far too easily influenced by the media.

If it was just how the few saw it then my opinion wouldn't bother others so much. The reason when someone says this there is that irritated response is because it's true. I have a lot of European friends and they've all said they avoid the English carrying the flag when abroad. I love being an Englishman and I don't hide  it even though I live in Wales, but, the English flag has pretty much been ruined by those I mentioned. Being a man who shaves his head and had tattoos if I were to go to a match or even fly my flag on St George's day the vast majority would take one look at me and think I was going to start a fight.  Truth is I'm more likely to greet and chat to anyone and do my best to avoid any conflict but that flag makes a very big difference in how I am viewed and that's because of the people who are seen in the media brandishing it. 

[Roger Red Hat]

6 minutes ago, matalan12 said:

Do you understand though how this is not what the England flag represents?

Do you understand that right wing nationalists have appropriated the flag to promote their views, and it is viewed by many as representing them?

I understand that the flag is a piece of cloth with a red cross on it, and signifies the area of the world from whence we come.

[WessexPest]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Actually Blake's Jerusalem is far from patriotic.  Many critics believe he was being ironic in asking four questions:

• And did those feet in ancient time walk upon England'smountains green?
• And was the holy Lamb of God on England's pleasant pastures seen?
• And did the Countenance Divine shine forth upon our clouded hills?
• And was Jerusalem builded here among these dark Satanic Mills?

To which Blake would have felt that the answer was no to each!  The notion of building a New Jerusalem in England is believed to be a parody of the rampant nationalism that existed at the time in England (while the Napoleonic Wars were going on).

Good tune though!  Mind you, Hubert Parry who wrote the music also did not want it used in a patriotic context (he famously refused permission for it to be used by a nationalist organisation during the first World War and offered it instead to the Women's Institute in an attempt to avoid it being used as a patriotic rabble-rouser).

Oh, and Elgar hated the words to 'Land of Hope and Glory' too!

Blake's main point was that Jerusalem didn't exist in England, hence the need to build the thing.

In terms of Parry's tune and Blake's poetry, Jerusalem would be a fine addition to the world's collection of national anthems.

The problem is not Pongo's point about Christ never having visited Glastonbury (anyway, he did - he was working on a project with his dad, creating a football team not too many miles away...) but that it's Christian mysticism is not inclusive. Having said that though, I still expect it'd be the popular choice.

[WessexPest]

1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Well, it's not the media is it. Are you seriously suggesting that the NF and mobs like the EDL haven't used the flag to represent their right wing nationalist outlook?

They've latched on to the Union Flag too (at least the NF did), but I don't hear you bleating about that. They'd be welcome to that rag, incidentally.

I hate the Union flag and would never fly it. I love seeing the CoSG in vast numbers at England games, but I still wince when I catch sight of the occasional Union flag.

[Roger Red Hat]

Just now, WessexPest said:

They've latched on to the Union Flag too (at least the NF did), but I don't hear you bleating about that. They'd be welcome to that rag, incidentally.

I hate the Union flag and would never fly it. I love seeing the CoSG in vast numbers at England games, but I still wince when I catch sight of the occasional Union flag.

I'm not bleating about the union flag as this thread is about St George. I know all about the NF's appropriation of the union flag as I was part of the anti-nazi league in the 70's.

For the sake of clarity, flags, for me, are bits of fabric with various colours/designs on them, some prettier than others, and they signify areas of the world called countries.

[WessexPest]

50 minutes ago, Spike said:

If it was just how the few saw it then my opinion wouldn't bother others so much. The reason when someone says this there is that irritated response is because it's true. I have a lot of European friends and they've all said they avoid the English carrying the flag when abroad. I love being an Englishman and I don't hide  it even though I live in Wales, but, the English flag has pretty much been ruined by those I mentioned. Being a man who shaves his head and had tattoos if I were to go to a match or even fly my flag on St George's day the vast majority would take one look at me and think I was going to start a fight.  Truth is I'm more likely to greet and chat to anyone and do my best to avoid any conflict but that flag makes a very big difference in how I am viewed and that's because of the people who are seen in the media brandishing it. 

As I've mentioned a couple of times, the Brits have conducted a deliberate campaign to undermine Englishness. They feel the need to associate England and its national flag with racism or anti-social behaviour at every opportunity, so it isn't surprising that the gullible and those who dislike England and the English keep chanting this tired old mantra.

But the spell is wearing off, all the time -and what will they do to intimidate people then?

The English flag has not been "ruined". I've spent a lot of my life abroad, I fly it constantly and th biggest problem I've encountered is people not knowing which flag it is ("Denmark", "Sweden"?) That tells its own story sadly about how Englishness has sadly been blended faultlessly with Britishness.

There was a ridiculous example on some sporting website not long ago - they had the top 10 rankings for women's football. Every other nation had its flag, but because the England flag didn't yet exist as an emoji (good to hear that's going to change shortly) and they wisely didn't want to use the Union flag (although to avoid upsetting the "Celtic Nations" of course, not to give a stuff about the English) they used a lion emoji. 

 

[WessexPest]

1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Indeed.

And I was told yesterday that St George was actually from Palestine.

Yes, that's correct - and as an Englishman who supports the Palestinians' right to a homeland that sits well with me.

Roger, you seem to have a problem with Englishness and its flag based on the tiny lunatic fringe who have "hijacked" it.

So let me ask you this - I'm sure it hasn't escaped your attention that we have a problem with a minority of troublemakers at Bristol City. When you see hooligans causing trouble in City's name do you feel a similar sense of shame about supporting Bristol City? Or do you do as I do and take the attitude that these lunkheads don't represent you or your club?

when I fly my flag I'm not "reclaiming it from the racists" or any such garbage; I'm simply flying my flag.

 

[Roger Red Hat]

Just now, WessexPest said:

Yes, that's correct - and as an Englishman who supports the Palestinians' right to a homeland that sits well with me.

Roger, you seem to have a problem with Englishness and its flag based on the tiny lunatic fringe who have "hijacked" it.

So let me ask you this - I'm sure it hasn't escaped your attention that we have a problem with a minority of troublemakers at Bristol City. When you see hooligans causing trouble in City's name do you feel a similar sense of shame about supporting Bristol City? Or do you do as I do and take the attitude that these lunkheads don't represent you or your club?

when I fly my flag I'm not "reclaiming it from the racists" or any such garbage; I'm simply flying my flag.

 

Agree with you 100% about the Palestinian situation. BDS.

I don't have a problem with Englishness as no one has told me what it is! I don't have a problem with the flag, I'd be quite happy if there was or wasn't one. You, on the other hand, I think would have a problem if there wasn't one!

[Trueredsupporter]

1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Do you understand that right wing nationalists have appropriated the flag to promote their views, and it is viewed by many as representing them?

I understand that the flag is a piece of cloth with a red cross on it, and signifies the area of the world from whence we come.

you going to say its also not associated with others as well? left wing oi and punk? were people out yesterday being nationalistic? these people appropriating a flag?

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, WessexPest said:

Blake's main point was that Jerusalem didn't exist in England, hence the need to build the thing.

Well yes, but Blake was not a hugely religious man (in the context of his times), and was probably talking metaphorically about the human spirit when he referred to 'Jerusalem'.  As something of a proto-socialist, he may well have been suggesting that it might be possible to build an egalitarian society if England stopped believing it had a divine right to rule, and essentially stopped being so arrogant.  Of course, he was also concerned about the effects of the industrial revolution of craftsmen, which comes into it. 

I'd love to have Jerusalem as a national anthem, but not because it is a patriotic song, more that it is a song about hope and equality.

[WessexPest]

1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Well yes, but Blake was not a hugely religious man (in the context of his times), and was probably talking metaphorically about the human spirit when he referred to 'Jerusalem'.  As something of a proto-socialist, he may well have been suggesting that it might be possible to build an egalitarian society if England stopped believing it had a divine right to rule, and essentially stopped being so arrogant.  Of course, he was also concerned about the effects of the industrial revolution of craftsmen, which comes into it. 

I'd love to have Jerusalem as a national anthem, but not because it is a patriotic song, more that it is a song about hope and equality.

Well that stuff you set out about England thinking it has a divine right to rule and being arrogant is absolute crap - England as now wasn't an independent country in Blake's time and like others was under the boot of the British imperialists. The difference is most of those other countries that were part of the British Empire are now long since independent where we still have a sneering British elite tying to suppress Englishness.

[Gibbs]

Jerusalem reminds me of the WI (Women's Institute) every time I hear it. We have so many patriotic songs that are surely a better fit.

1 hour ago, WessexPest said:

They've latched on to the Union Flag too (at least the NF did), but I don't hear you bleating about that. They'd be welcome to that rag, incidentally.

I hate the Union flag and would never fly it. I love seeing the CoSG in vast numbers at England games, but I still wince when I catch sight of the occasional Union flag.

Is this for political reasons? The union flag is one the best national flag designs in the world.

[WessexPest]

5 minutes ago, Gibbs said:

Jerusalem reminds me of the WI (Women's Institute) every time I hear it. We have so many patriotic songs that are surely a better fit.

Is this for political reasons? The union flag is one the best national flag designs in the world.

To me it's a cluttered mess. The clean red and white is a much better sight to feat your eyes on.

I don't believe in the British state, so don't care for the flag.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

40 minutes ago, WessexPest said:

Well that stuff you set out about England thinking it has a divine right to rule and being arrogant is absolute crap - England as now wasn't an independent country in Blake's time and like others was under the boot of the British imperialists. The difference is most of those other countries that were part of the British Empire are now long since independent where we still have a sneering British elite tying to suppress Englishness.

Sorry, I wasn't making a distinction between Britain and England in Blake's time. 

[WessexPest]

15 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Sorry, I wasn't making a distinction between Britain and England in Blake's time. 

That's the problem - too many don't.

its the English identity that has suffered the most from Britishness. And one of the reasons we are saddled with the British national anthem.

It doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics but I love the Commonwealth Hames because we compete as England and hear Jerusalem every time we win a gold - it was played endlessly in Glasgow 2014.

[Roger Red Hat]

33 minutes ago, matalan12 said:

Just because a minority right wing group adopts a symbol or flag, does not mean that's what it is for

At no point have I said that is what a flag is for.

The fact remains, rightly or wrongly, it has been appropriated by the groups I suggest, whether you want to accept it or not.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

3 hours ago, WessexPest said:

That's the problem - too many don't.

its the English identity that has suffered the most from Britishness. And one of the reasons we are saddled with the British national anthem.

It doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics but I love the Commonwealth Hames because we compete as England and hear Jerusalem every time we win a gold - it was played endlessly in Glasgow 2014.

Not a problem for me mate.  After all, the English are a hybrid race...

[WessexPest]

10 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Not a problem for me mate.  After all, the English are a hybrid race...

Well yes, like every other race in fact! 

But that's a different point I think - what I'm driving at is that England isn't allowed to be considered as an historic nation of the U.K. with its own devolved parliament like the smaller countries have.

We can have some decentralisation to decide bus fares and contracting out, but no fiscal and legislative authority.

Partial devolution was always going to destabilise the U.K. - the late MP Tam Dalyell talked eloquently about this as far back as the 1970s, and his concerns were proven to be well founded. 

There's no bunging the toothpaste back in the tube now, though, so the U.K. will either have to redrawn along federal lines (unlikely) or cease to exist.

[WhistleHappy]

Hanged a 5ft St George flag from my living room window at 6.30am yesterday Sunday ... took it down about 7 this morning...

I always drape at least one St George Cross flag from my flats windows on St Georges Day sometimes two or three.  I've got several of them and Union flags and others specifically for England football... 

When the World Cup/Euros are on I've usually got half a dozen of them hanging from windows of my eighth floor flat (that can be spotted from a couple of directions and at a distance) from the first match involving England to the second the ref blows the whistle on the inevitably disappointing loss that dumps us out of the competition.

Half expected to have received Politically Incorrect objections but its never been a problem, not a word official or otherwise, (& neither should there have been) .... the ethnic demographic on the estate has changed dramatically in the last ten years from 95% white British to something like 80% Somali and not one of my new neighbours have ever objected in any way, (indeed there is far less drug dealing, drunken violence/nuisance, car crime or crime in general here in recent years too since many of our chavvy types have moved on) I feel the only likely objections to flags are likely to come (if at all) from misguided meddling 'do gooders' and woe betide any of that sort who mentions 'racism' or anyone being offended on someone else behalf at the sight of our National flags.... if people associate them with far right groups N F etc, then its even more important for everyone to reclaim those national symbols of pride and display them appropriately without hate or prejudice..

On St Georges Day ... I'll fly the flag, at other times of National pride, sporting etc ... I'll fly the flag.  Without malice.

Must admit I might think twice about objecting if I spot blue checked or flags representing piracy though ...I'm not sure I wouldn't be offended by stuff like that!!!

 

[PHILINFRANCE]

On 4/23/2017 at 17:37, chinapig said:

Listen to Ian Hislop's programme about him on Radio 4Xtra yesterday and you'll understand. He wasn't English, he was a Roman soldier from Turkey and was adopted as patron saint of umpteen places.

Those right wing groups who have appropriated the flag would want him kicked out of the country if he was alive today. Oh the irony.

Interestingly, I always thought he was Greek.

One of those places is Malta (and, especially, Gozo) although, as I am sure you are aware, the George Cross on their National Flag should not be confused with the Cross of Saint George.