St George

[Red-Robbo]

8 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I'm neither an Anglophobe nor a fool, but whether you like it or not the St Georges cross is associated with extreme right wing politics, with good reason.

I don't celebrate any patron saints day as it means nothing to me. I do however like a nice pint of Guinness on any day.

Prefer a Murphy's myself.... 

[Trueredsupporter]

13 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

oI'm neither an Anglophobe nor a fool, but whether you like it or not the St Georges cross is associated with extreme right wing politics, with good reason..

then there are left wing punk and oi bands also associated with the St George and union jack like the business, cock sparer, Angelic upstarts and loads more..

hats off to those out celebrating today.

  

[Roger Red Hat]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

Prefer a Murphy's myself.... 

Not really that keen on a Murphy's, bit too sweet.

[WessexPest]

14 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I'm neither an Anglophobe nor a fool, but whether you like it or not the St Georges cross is associated with extreme right wing politics, with good reason.

I don't celebrate any patron saints day as it means nothing to me. I do however like a nice pint of Guinness on any day.

Not with good reason - It is for the reasons I mentioned above. To try to paint celebrating Englishness as unacceptable - because making concessions threatens the Union in a way that making concessions to the national identities of the smaller nations doesn't.

Whether you celebrate it or not is entirely up to you - but you don't get to smear Englishness and not be challenged on it.

[WessexPest]

15 minutes ago, chinapig said:

No, I'm saying some extreme right wing groups have tried to present themselves as 'more patriotic than thou' and that can tarnish those whose patriotism doesn't involve hatred of 'the other'. I don't think that is terribly controversial in the context of the last 40 years or so.

I prefer a positive patriotism if you like based on the many things there are to be proud of without claiming superiority over anybody else. Indeed that includes celebrating the fact that my parents' generation fought a war against the kind of hatred those extremes represent, that can be truly described as a 'just war'.

Nationalism of any stripe attract unsavoury characters - but they don't generally get to define that nationalism.

The real enemies of the English are the British. I can't wait until the U.K. is scattered to the four winds.

[Red Exile]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Wasn't the claim that George was born in Coventry invented to bolster his position at some point? Shakespeare did his bit for the cause in Henry V of course.

It was a holiday when Shakespeare's father was a child, one of the big occasions in the Stratford-on-Avon calendar...just been studying the period in a Uni course. The Town Warden's accounts for the mid 1500's include payments for "dressing" and "bearing" the dragon, gunpowder, "scouring St George's harness and two dozen bells"...but by 1552 it was dropped as a holiday from the Prayer Book and by the end of the century public celebrations had largely ended. April 23rd was, of course, Shakespeare's birthday...or possibly the day after it...I guess even without a holiday he'd have had an affinity with St George, and his audience would have known the story and his significance.

[Ivorguy]

According to Hutton in 'Stations of the Sun', St George's Day was celebrated in medieval Bristol in a number of parishes with processions. We seem to have been quite a centre for the cult of St George, along with other cities like Norwich, Coventry, and York.  All seem to have a civic connection 

[Red Exile]

Just now, Ivorguy said:

According to Hutton in 'Stations of the Sun', St George's Day was celebrated in medieval Bristol in a number of parishes with processions. We seem to have been quite a centre for the cult of St George, along with other cities like Norwich, Coventry, and York.  All seem to have a civic connection 

It was a big deal in Norwich...to the extent that when the celebration of saints days was frowned upon they dispensed with St George and just had a parade with the dragon, which officials let them get away with for the whole of Elizabeth's reign.

[Lanterne Rouge]

3 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

It was a holiday when Shakespeare's father was a child, one of the big occasions in the Stratford-on-Avon calendar...just been studying the period in a Uni course. The Town Warden's accounts for the mid 1500's include payments for "dressing" and "bearing" the dragon, gunpowder, "scouring St George's harness and two dozen bells"...but by 1552 it was dropped as a holiday from the Prayer Book and by the end of the century public celebrations had largely ended. April 23rd was, of course, Shakespeare's birthday...or possibly the day after it...I guess even without a holiday he'd have had an affinity with St George, and his audience would have known the story and his significance.

 

Just now, Red Exile said:

It was a big deal in Norwich...to the extent that when the celebration of saints days was frowned upon they dispensed with St George and just had a parade with the dragon, which officials let them get away with for the whole of Elizabeth's reign.

 

3 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

According to Hutton in 'Stations of the Sun', St George's Day was celebrated in medieval Bristol in a number of parishes with processions. We seem to have been quite a centre for the cult of St George, along with other cities like Norwich, Coventry, and York.  All seem to have a civic connection 

Yet again I am amazed at the depth of knowledge there is among members of this forum. I thought I had a fairly good grasp of the history of St George but I didn`t know any of that!

[chinapig]

16 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

It was a holiday when Shakespeare's father was a child, one of the big occasions in the Stratford-on-Avon calendar...just been studying the period in a Uni course. The Town Warden's accounts for the mid 1500's include payments for "dressing" and "bearing" the dragon, gunpowder, "scouring St George's harness and two dozen bells"...but by 1552 it was dropped as a holiday from the Prayer Book and by the end of the century public celebrations had largely ended. April 23rd was, of course, Shakespeare's birthday...or possibly the day after it...I guess even without a holiday he'd have had an affinity with St George, and his audience would have known the story and his significance.

Thanks, very interesting. Enjoy your studies.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Wanderingred said:

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Although it is correct that he wasn't English. He was from what is now Turkey and is also the patron saint of Georgia.

Add Albania, Kosovo and Bulgaria.

Saints do not have to represent their Country of birth. Only its values.

Sure St George would have liked the Sex Pistols and cider. 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

This is from a website called  we are the english.com     The huscarl were the feared frontline battle troops of the early English army. They were possibly the toughest fighting men in Europe at the time and it was said that these men were worth any two of the Vikings finest warriors.....Their preferred weapon was the huge double-handed battle-axe and with it they were more than an equal to any fighting man, anywhere. These were men bound by honour, to fight to the death on the battlefield rather than face the shame of returning home without their Lord. At the Battle of Hastings, with King Harold dead, his loyal huscarls refused to yield and refused leave the battlefield. They rallied at a place on the battlefield known as Malfosse and in a desperate last stand caused such a huge slaughter among the Norman troops that once again the outcome of the battle hung in the balance. At the very end they were overcome, and they died to a man around the King's personal banner - "The Fighting Man" The Senlak White Dragon logo is inspired by the White Dragon of the Anglo-Saxons. The dragon banner was the original flag of the English and predates the Cross of St George by many hundreds of years - it is the ancient emblem of the English and is a strong statement of our identity
The English have a rich history of radical thought and action which can be traced directly back to those first boatloads of Anglo-Saxon warriors who splashed up our beaches all those years ago. We don't like others imposing their views on us and we don't like being told what to do. So for all those non-conformers, the free thinkers and the rebellious. For those that don't always believe everything that the "clever people" tell us and for all those generations scattered around the globe who still remember  who we are and all we have achieved. Two fingers to "their" status quo and long live the Rebel English. We embrace you all.  So according to them, the flag of England should be the White Dragon, would be more interesting than the St George cross that we have now.  Perhaps the historians on the forum could investigate further.

[Red Cloud]

1 hour ago, alexukhc said:

Nah I'm not sure anyone does, most are proud to be Irish on st Patrick's day though....

Even though St Patrick was Welsh!!! bizarre

in fact not only that, he was a Welsh Slave captured by Irish Slave Traders! 

[Roger Red Hat]

39 minutes ago, WessexPest said:

Not with good reason - It is for the reasons I mentioned above. To try to paint celebrating Englishness as unacceptable - because making concessions threatens the Union in a way that making concessions to the national identities of the smaller nations doesn't.

Whether you celebrate it or not is entirely up to you - but you don't get to smear Englishness and not be challenged on it.

What is 'Englishness'?

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, BS2 Red said:

I don't "celebrate" it. I'm not in any way religious so have no need to celebrate a saints day. 

I am English, but St George never even got close to stepping foot in England and lived long before the Angles and Saxons even arrived in what we call England.

It all seems rather pointless to me.

You're obviously not a publican. A St George's Day celebration at a pub is fantastic for increasing trade. 

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

What is 'Englishness'?

Whatever you interpret it to be.

To me its the Beetles, the Kinks, Blur, Oasis, Sex Pistols and popular culture peculiar to this Country. A fine and proud history like no other.

 

[Red Exile]

13 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

This is from a website called  we are the english.com     The huscarl were the feared frontline battle troops of the early English army. They were possibly the toughest fighting men in Europe at the time and it was said that these men were worth any two of the Vikings finest warriors.....Their preferred weapon was the huge double-handed battle-axe and with it they were more than an equal to any fighting man, anywhere. These were men bound by honour, to fight to the death on the battlefield rather than face the shame of returning home without their Lord. At the Battle of Hastings, with King Harold dead, his loyal huscarls refused to yield and refused leave the battlefield. They rallied at a place on the battlefield known as Malfosse and in a desperate last stand caused such a huge slaughter among the Norman troops that once again the outcome of the battle hung in the balance. At the very end they were overcome, and they died to a man around the King's personal banner - "The Fighting Man" The Senlak White Dragon logo is inspired by the White Dragon of the Anglo-Saxons. The dragon banner was the original flag of the English and predates the Cross of St George by many hundreds of years - it is the ancient emblem of the English and is a strong statement of our identity
The English have a rich history of radical thought and action which can be traced directly back to those first boatloads of Anglo-Saxon warriors who splashed up our beaches all those years ago. We don't like others imposing their views on us and we don't like being told what to do. So for all those non-conformers, the free thinkers and the rebellious. For those that don't always believe everything that the "clever people" tell us and for all those generations scattered around the globe who still remember  who we are and all we have achieved. Two fingers to "their" status quo and long live the Rebel English. We embrace you all.  So according to them, the flag of England should be the White Dragon, would be more interesting than the St George cross that we have now.  Perhaps the historians on the forum could investigate further.

The flag of Wessex, which flies in Wantage where Alfred the Great was born, is, today, a yellow dragon. Harold was born in Wessex.

St George was adopted as the patron Saint of England by Edward III in the 1300s. Until then there were a number of national saints, including Saint Edward the Confessor, who was the King before Harold took the throne. Edward was made a saint in the 1100's. 

If I have a problem with the piece you quote it would be that many nations could claim precisely the same freethinking and rebellious qualities...they're quite attractive. I'm not sure that we understand a great deal about what the first Angles and Saxons thought. 

[WessexPest]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

Whatever you interpret it to be.

To me its the Beetles, the Kinks, Blur, Oasis, Sex Pistols and popular culture peculiar to this Country. A fine and proud history like no other.

 

Precisely - it's not about getting kitted out in fancy dress for the tourists.

For me it's Pink Floyd, Genesis, the Likely Lads, Brass Eye, Alfred the Great, a country pub, scrumpy, the Magna Carta.

[alexukhc]

18 minutes ago, Nube Rojo said:

Even though St Patrick was Welsh!!! bizarre

in fact not only that, he was a Welsh Slave captured by Irish Slave Traders! 

Potatoes aren't even irish

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

3 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

The flag of Wessex, which flies in Wantage where Alfred the Great was born, is, today, a yellow dragon. Harold was born in Wessex.

St George was adopted as the patron Saint of England by Edward III in the 1300s. Until then there were a number of national saints, including Saint Edward the Confessor, who was the King before Harold took the throne. Edward was made a saint in the 1100's. 

If I have a problem with the piece you quote it would be that many nations could claim precisely the same freethinking and rebellious qualities...they're quite attractive. I'm not sure that we understand a great deal about what the first Angles and Saxons thought. 

Found this since  "

Origins

The Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain began in the 5th century AD. The most famed of the early migrants were Hengest and Horsa who arrived with their warriors in three ships. In the following years many warriors and settlers crossed the sea and settled lowland Britain from East to West. They came from the Engle (English), the Seax (Saxons) and the Jutes. From the Jutes came the people of Kent and the people of the Isle of Wight and the mainland opposite Wight. From the Saxons came the East Saxons (Essex) and the South Saxons (Sussex) and the West Saxons (Wessex). From Angeln came the East Engle (East Anglia), Middle Engle (English Midlands), Mercians (Mercia), and all the Northumbrians (North of the Humber), which included those now known as the Lowland Scots. 

 

Unity

The Engles (English) were the dominant group and by the 9th century the settlers had merged into one English identity. The English gave their name to the land they lived in (Englalond) and the language they spoke (Englisc), which has evolved into modern English. It was those writing in Latin who called the English Angels and Anglo-Saxons.The settlers were closely related peoples – so similar in appearance and culture that they were able to merge into one English identity. Later they absorbed closely related Danish and other Scandinavian settlers.

 

The White Dragon

Both the English and the Welsh adopted the dragon as their battle flag. The dragon of the Britons can still be seen in the Red Dragon of the Welsh flag while for the English it was the White Dragon that was to prove most enduring. The Dragon was flown by Harold II, when he destroyed the Norse army at the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066 and it was the banner under which he and his warriors fought to the death, three weeks later defending their homeland.

 

Modern Times

In the following centuries the flag of St George was adopted as the flag of England, which it still is. However, in modern times, when our country is seeing much change and turmoil, the White Dragon flag is being revived as the flag of the English. It is a symbol of our identity, our common history and of the kinship of all the Anglo-Saxon people.

 

 

[WessexPest]

On a somewhat related note - it's time Jerusalem was used as the English national anthem instead of the appalling dirge that is GSTQ.

 

[Fiale]

Scouts and cubs had a march to Redcliffe church for St Georges day celebration, a couple of hundred people, band and parents escorted by Police. So some people still celebrate it - though drivers seemed pissed they were blocking the roads 

[WessexPest]

3 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Found this since  "

Origins

The Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain began in the 5th century AD. The most famed of the early migrants were Hengest and Horsa who arrived with their warriors in three ships. In the following years many warriors and settlers crossed the sea and settled lowland Britain from East to West. They came from the Engle (English), the Seax (Saxons) and the Jutes. From the Jutes came the people of Kent and the people of the Isle of Wight and the mainland opposite Wight. From the Saxons came the East Saxons (Essex) and the South Saxons (Sussex) and the West Saxons (Wessex). From Angeln came the East Engle (East Anglia), Middle Engle (English Midlands), Mercians (Mercia), and all the Northumbrians (North of the Humber), which included those now known as the Lowland Scots. 

 

Unity

The Engles (English) were the dominant group and by the 9th century the settlers had merged into one English identity. The English gave their name to the land they lived in (Englalond) and the language they spoke (Englisc), which has evolved into modern English. It was those writing in Latin who called the English Angels and Anglo-Saxons.The settlers were closely related peoples – so similar in appearance and culture that they were able to merge into one English identity. Later they absorbed closely related Danish and other Scandinavian settlers.

 

The White Dragon

Both the English and the Welsh adopted the dragon as their battle flag. The dragon of the Britons can still be seen in the Red Dragon of the Welsh flag while for the English it was the White Dragon that was to prove most enduring. The Dragon was flown by Harold II, when he destroyed the Norse army at the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066 and it was the banner under which he and his warriors fought to the death, three weeks later defending their homeland.

 

Modern Times

In the following centuries the flag of St George was adopted as the flag of England, which it still is. However, in modern times, when our country is seeing much change and turmoil, the White Dragon flag is being revived as the flag of the English. It is a symbol of our identity, our common history and of the kinship of all the Anglo-Saxon people.

 

 

Interesting point about the Saxons originally settling as far north as Lothian and the Borders. It's fairly obscure and little discussed.

Our education system has a lot to answer for when it comes to general ignorance of English history. I'm fascinated by English history from 449 to the Norman conquest.

Alfred the Great is a hero - if it wasn't for him, the last Anglo-Saxon kingdom, Wessex, would likely have fallen and there may not have been an England at all.

He also sparked a new age of learning and set the wheels in motion for the English Navy. A remarkable man.

And yet, what is he remembered for? Something he almost certainly didn't do - burning some poxy cakes (actually in the legend sometimes it says it was bread).

I thoroughly recommend a book called "The White Horse King" for anyone interested in learning why he truly was deserving of the title "The Great".

[pongo88]

26 minutes ago, WessexPest said:

On a somewhat related note - it's time Jerusalem was used as the English national anthem instead of the appalling dirge that is GSTQ.

 

Well this fits, as it's about Jesus visiting England. As this almost certainly never happened, and St George definitely never visited England the song and the patron saint go well together. While we're at it, why not replace the English cross of St George flag with a picture of King Zog of Albania. He definitely lived in England during his exile. 

[T R]

I put this up once before it's an interesting read. 

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Edmund-original-patron-saint-of-England/

 

[BS2 Red]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

You're obviously not a publican. A St George's Day celebration at a pub is fantastic for increasing trade. 

If I was a publican then it would be bad for trade. I couldn't be arsed to serve the public and would just drink all my profits.

[shelts]

Very proud to be English . Used to be a Cub/Scout and enjoyed the parade through Bemmy and town to St Mary Redcliffe .  Fortunate I never allowed the far right to high jack my flag . Nothing wrong with nationalism. 

[Malago]

We're English.  Nothing else needs saying.  

[reddoh]

3 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

What is 'Englishness'?

Knowing you are the next best thing to God 

[Gibbs]

Similar to how people complain we're the only country that doesn't have a national day. It's an English thing.