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Bar BS3

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

I've been reading a few (same predictable people) views that LJ should be replaced over the summer. 

Surely any club that replaced a manager who has just lost only 2 of his last 11 games, winning SIX with 3 draws, would be event more mental than one who doesn't sack their manager after a record run of defeats..?! 

To want LJ out at this moment in time strikes me as nothing more than an agenda and being unable to give credit where it's due it turning things around. 

Do some people really think that we (or any club on the planet) would be correct in replacing a manager who has just taken 21 points from their last 11 games..? 

 

Due to your links with the club a perception could be that it is yourself with a obvious agenda v anybody who does not tow your narrow party line.

 

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55 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I've put some of my thoughts on hold because there are clearly a number of stories behind the scenes that may have affected this season

 

As a result , and the fact that we've gone on a great run I think it would now be a real gamble to change the head coach.at this moment in time

Continuity is undoubtedly beneficial (Needs to be positive continuity / the right man)

 

My one caveat is -

What no one on here knows is why the players suddenly upped a gear post Preston and what changed

Without that answer , it is difficult to fully judge LJ and what part he played in the negative , or positive , or both , sides of that line

My one concern is the possibility the players decided to up a gear themselves for a variety of reasons

Im not saying that is or isn't the case but the hierarchy at AG need to know the answer as well as whose idea was it to go 4-4-2 and be consistent with selection

Personally I believe that the behind closed doors 'meeting' the players / coaches had around the time of the Preston debacle ? Had a major influence

if LJ was the one behind these things and finally realising LT wasn't good for the side , etc - good , let's see how we move forwards

If none of these were his ideas I'd still have massive concerns

In reality we will never know but as I've said SL and MA certainly need to know that answer

Without doubt we will run with Lee and I hope with moving some on and some quality Championship ready signings we can stabilise properly in this league

There is a conspiracy theory implicit in your argument that I just can't accept.

There was a turnaround after the awful Preston performance. But you seem to have decided that the players suddenly "decided" to stop losing and start trying for some hidden reason. To be honest I find that a bizarre suggestion and we just don't have any real evidence for it, even if we do know/suspect that some individuals fell out with L J at various times. That happens. It doesn't mean the squad as a collective decided to cooperate after deciding not to the previous week.

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17 minutes ago, City Ben said:

I think it's fine to question LJ's tactics, selections, man management, dodgy beard... whatever. Go for your life. But I don't think it's fair to question his motivation or integrity. I think he's here because he's a motivated and ambitious young coach who wants to achieve personal success in his career as a manager. I don't know why you'd suggest he's only here for the money and I think that's a bit out of order. 

And on the pressure point, just because he earns a lot more than most of us on here doesn't mean he's immune from pressure. You think the CEO of Apple feels no pressure because he earns a lot of money? Quite the opposite, he gets paid that money to deal with the insane amount of pressure. It's not correct to say that more money = less impacted by pressure. The two are not linked. 

Of course he's here for the money, as are all footballers and managers, as is the Tesco check out assistant, as is the CEO at Apple, and if you think that's out of order, so be it.

He came here because we offered more than Barnsley, and in the unlikely event that another club offered more money, he'd be off again.

Course he has been under pressure, but to suggest as @yardy did that he is "City through and through", otherwise he would have walked away from a salary he could only otherwise dream of, is just nonsense bordering on cloud cuckoo.

I have not questioned his integrity BTW.

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50 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

What's becoming tedious is the daily "told you so post" from those who wanted LJ to be given more time when many of us had lost patience.  It was an abysmal season by and large. Few if anyone will look back on it with fondness! The manager lost the faith of a significant number of die hard fans. He'll struggle to win it back. 

How do you feel about the hundreds of "told you so" posts from the other side after every bad result?

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11 minutes ago, Leveller said:

There is a conspiracy theory implicit in your argument that I just can't accept.

There was a turnaround after the awful Preston performance. But you seem to have decided that the players suddenly "decided" to stop losing and start trying for some hidden reason. To be honest I find that a bizarre suggestion and we just don't have any real evidence for it, even if we do know/suspect that some individuals fell out with L J at various times. That happens. It doesn't mean the squad as a collective decided to cooperate after deciding not to the previous week.

Not sure you've read the post right - I've thrown it up as a possibility as there was a significant change in approach

Or do you think they bucked up because Lee told them to ? 

Do you know who wanted to go 4-4-2 

I don't , it might well have been all down to Lee , and this is simply what I'm saying and those inside the hierarchy need to know those answers and I stand by that, and my post

Again I'm not saying it was , but if the upturn in the players was them saving their own necks it would make our new look confidence to be built on sandy foundations

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3 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Of course he's here for the money, as are all footballers and managers, as is the Tesco check out assistant, as is the CEO at Apple, and if you think that's out of order, so be it.

He came here because we offered more than Barnsley, and in the unlikely event that another club offered more money, he'd be off again.

Course he has been under pressure, but to suggest as @yardy did that he is "City through and through", otherwise he would have walked away from a salary he could only otherwise dream of, is just nonsense bordering on cloud cuckoo.

I have not questioned his integrity BTW.

It's obvious as the title suggests that you have a 'agenda' regarding LJ, he has proved you/me and many more wrong so far and i hope he continues to do so next season!

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First 11 games this season; 21 points

Last 11 games this season; 21 points

The 23 games this season; 12 points

Erratic isn't he? Suitable for next season as our Head Coach? Debatable but as the owner has already decided, LJ is staying so we'll see what the next batch of games bring. Happiness or despair?

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1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Just as a factual correction.

Blackburn have won more than they have lost since Mowbray was appointed.

Wigan's win percentage has increased since sacking their manager.

So it has helped, just maybe too late in both cases.

Birmingham didn't change their manager because they were fighting relegation.

Bristol City have won more than they have lost since Lansdown said he was sticking with Lee Johnson.

Bristol City's win percentage has increased since not sacking their manager.

 

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

I've been readin few (same predictable peodueple) views that LJ should be replaced over the summer. 

Surely any club that replaced a manager who has just lost only 2 of his last 11 games, winning SIX with 3 draws, would be event more mental than one who doesn't sack their manager after a record run of defeats..?! 

To want LJ out at this moment in time strikes me as nothing more than an agenda and being unable to give credit where it's due it turning things around. 

Do some people really think that we (or any club on the planet) would be correct in replacing a manager who has just taken 21 points from their last 11 games..? 

 

No agenda here and credit where credit is due but I just don't think he can take us to the next level of progression

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29 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Joe, I've enjoyed debating stuff with you this season, but I've picked out a couple of a points from your post....

Claiming that you know the views and opinions of our entire fanbase doesn't add any strength to your arguments. How do you know the 'LJ out group' is 'tiny' ? I'm pretty sure you haven't canvassed the opinions of roughly 45,000 people so would love to know how you have come to that conclusion.

Tammy was 18 when he joined us, of course he had no 'achievements' but he is a player, there are over thirty of those, so calculated gambles can be taken....with one Head Coach you can't afford to take such risks....you can't say 'have a rest son, it's just not working for you at the moment, we're gonna try someone new in your position for the next game..'

And I thought it was pretty well known that LJ didn't 'have to sell' Kodjia, the decision was left to him and MA, having said that though, I fully appreciate that JK's head was well and truly turned by the Villa approach and we couldn't have turned down that sort of money. But good luck to Kodjia, he kept us up with loads of goals and moved on giving us a huge profit.

The "LJ out group" is minuscule.  But they do shout really loudly and constantly (though obviously not having an agenda at all).

How do I know this?  I base most of my views on City fans based on Ashton Gate atmospheres.  Simplistic?  Well, I don't think so.  The crowd mentality generally reflects the collective opinions.

So, what has the atmosphere at Ashton Gate been like?  Simply fantastic!  Even during our worse run.  There has barely been any "Johnson out".  The only (very) short period I can recall "Johnson out" was during the Rotherham game which we ironically went on to win.  We have had record attendances during this "awful Johnson out" period.

Perhaps the "Johnson out" few should pipe down and realise they are in a small minority.

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Why do we try and complicate this. We all love our club and the ups come with, it seems this season,  a lot of downs. I  think we stick with LJ and take our chance.  It's been a shocker at times but my god has it not been entertaining! Football will always see someone lose at some point. What do we look for in football? The game. Yes. The friendship of fellow fans? The feeling of belonging? Over the moon we are staying up. A fantastic performance and I will be at every game i can be next season as a proud season ticket holder.

By the way you are all brilliant. I bloody love this forum.. 

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15 minutes ago, Chivs said:

The "LJ out group" is minuscule.  But they do shout really loudly and constantly (though obviously not having an agenda at all).

How do I know this?  I base most of my views on City fans based on Ashton Gate atmospheres.  Simplistic?  Well, I don't think so.  The crowd mentality generally reflects the collective opinions.

So, what has the atmosphere at Ashton Gate been like?  Simply fantastic!  Even during our worse run.  There has barely been any "Johnson out".  The only (very) short period I can recall "Johnson out" was during the Rotherham game which we ironically went on to win.  We have had record attendances during this "awful Johnson out" period.

Perhaps the "Johnson out" few should pipe down and realise they are in a small minority.

Again

(And personally I've put my thoughts on LJ on hold and think he deserves a chance to build on the latest upturn)

you are confusing  Support for the team

(And delight / relief at avoiding relegation) with support for LJ

I think you will find many still have concerns of varying degrees but are just happy we've found some form

Why is the golden question

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12 minutes ago, Leveller said:

How do you feel about the hundreds of "told you so" posts from the other side after every bad result?

I feel that they were, in the main, cries from the heart by people despairing at how abysmally our side was performing and the inept response of the leadership at the club. Well, mine were! 

 

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1 hour ago, CotswoldRed said:

Can people please stop using the word "Agenda". 

Nobody has one. They simply have a different opinion. Learn to live with it. 

It's been a massively divisive season - totally normal given the pattern of results. Are you surprised that opinions become polarised? 

Stop trying to place yourself above others. 

I think there have been a few who have had a agenda against him since his playing days.

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There is a difference between an opinion and an agenda.

Daily Expeess this week criticise Corbyn for saying that he would not press the nuclear button. In the next paragraph they call his shadow defence secretary, who says she would, "trigger happy"

Daily Mail praises May for calling the election to ensure the UK can have "strong and stable" approach to Brexit negotiations, but when the EU side agree their approach and all stand shoulder to shoulder behind it the Mail calls that 'self serving' and 'ganging up'.

Those are agendas, and there's a few on here who's posts on LJ suggest agendas.

For what it's worth, we have a reasonable prospect of finishing this season in 15th place. When we lost Kodjia I said I'd be happy with 15th. I'd rather we'd spread results more evenly and stayed 15th all season, but I don't agree that this season has been an unmitigated disaster by any stretch.

what I hope more than anything ( and this is back to agendas) is that we don't start next season with people still sniping away at LJ from the outset. Ten games in we'll have an idea where the season is going, but I'd love to think that fans are 100% behind LJ for those ten games, not because I have a pro LJ agenda but simply because I think that's the best chance we've got of the club getting success. That's my pro City agenda!

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1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

What's becoming tedious is the daily "told you so post" from those who wanted LJ to be given more time when many of us had lost patience.  It was an abysmal season by and large. Few if anyone will look back on it with fondness! The manager lost the faith of a significant number of die hard fans. He'll struggle to win it back. 

As was the months of 'told you so' and 'I knew it was a bad appointment' from the other camp during the bad run - from posters who only ever post on here when the going is bad. 

We're all City fans. Let's draw a line under this season and get away from the 'us vs them' mentality. 

It'd be nice to go into next season with City fans being just City fans, not 'in' or 'out' supporters. 

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20 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Again

(And personally I've put my thoughts on LJ on hold and think he deserves a chance to build on the latest upturn)

you are confusing  Support for the team

(And delight / relief at avoiding relegation) with support for LJ

I think you will find many still have concerns of varying degrees but are just happy we've found some form

Why is the golden question

I'm not confusing anything.  Do you agree, even during the worst losing streak in our club's history, that Ashton Gate, by a huge majority, were not calling for Johnson's head?

Yet, meanwhile, a few of the usual suspects on here, were bleating on about "boycotts".  That, I might add, did not happen.

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Just now, Chivs said:

I'm not confusing anything.  Do you agree, even during the worst losing streak in our club's history, that Ashton Gate, by a huge majority, were not calling for Johnson's head?

Yet, meanwhile, a few of the usual suspects on here, were bleating on about "boycotts".  That, I might add, did not happen.

You don't get the concept that supporters will virtually always get behind the team in the stadium but still have doubts of varying degrees from minor to complete 

Most supporters wouldn't actually care less if Basil Brush was the manager if the side was delivering decent results

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If Lansdown didn't sack him after that awful run, of course he won't sack him after turning things around.

As I have no agenda, I hope City perform better and more consistently next season, whoever our manager is.

On the basis that the season will start with LJ as manager, that means I hope he is a success next year. If he is not, I would want him replaced.

Hopefully we as a club (including LJ as manager) will have learnt lessons and become stronger as a result of what we went through this year. Maybe next time we lose a few games in a row LJ will have a better idea of how to turn things around more quickly. If he is a 'bright young manager' he should get better and better each year.

 

 

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I think even the most LJ-sceptical will acknowledge that he will be in charge next season.

I've said it before; he got us into this mess - that cannot be denied.  But he has also been in charge as we've extracted ourselves, so I think SL will see this as validation of his choice to hold the line.

As such, the only way he's going is a massive fallout with SL (don't see it happening) or a massive collapse next year, which could happen, but do we want that?  I don't.

So, I guess I'm in the sceptical-but-resigned camp, hoping the coaching team have learnt lessons, and the parts of the squad we need are kept and augmented with genuine quality signings.

I'm just delighted we're not on a knife edge last game, and gave an excellent account of ourselves on Sky when everyone and their dog thought we'd be done over.

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9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You don't get the concept that supporters will virtually always get behind the team in the stadium but still have doubts of varying degrees from minor to complete 

Most supporters wouldn't actually care less if Basil Brush was the manager if the side was delivering decent results

Do you have any thoughts on motherhood and apple pie?

And could you answer my question? Do you agree, even during the worst losing streak in our club's history, that Ashton Gate, by a huge majority, were not calling for Johnson's head?

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1 hour ago, yardy said:

Well i don't think he is here for the money, hasn't he got enough money and houses?

He is here because he's City through and through and he can see the massive potential this club has.....

He's here because he wants to make a bloody good living at Football Management not some undying love for the football club. Just like the other 91 blokes in the football league....unless he had undying love for Barnsley and Oldham too? Put it another way if he has learned lessons to the extent that he gets us into the Premier League and Arsenal come knocking on his door what do you reckon he will do?

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1 minute ago, Chivs said:

Do you have any thoughts on motherhood and apple pie?

And could you answer my question? 

Do you agree, even during the worst losing streak in our club's history, that Ashton Gate, by a huge majority, were not calling for Johnson's head?

Vocally , no of course not

Maybe you can answer mine 

'Do you accept that not vocally calling for his head at AG does not automatically mean they do not have concerns to varying degrees about him (Some wanting him gone there and then) ?'

You seem to have some idea that everyone who has an opinion vocalises it at AG 

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1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Joe, I've enjoyed debating stuff with you this season, but I've picked out a couple of a points from your post....

Claiming that you know the views and opinions of our entire fanbase doesn't add any strength to your arguments. How do you know the 'LJ out group' is 'tiny' ? I'm pretty sure you haven't canvassed the opinions of roughly 45,000 people so would love to know how you have come to that conclusion.

Tammy was 18 when he joined us, of course he had no 'achievements' but he is a player, there are over thirty of those, so calculated gambles can be taken....with one Head Coach you can't afford to take such risks....you can't say 'have a rest son, it's just not working for you at the moment, we're gonna try someone new in your position for the next game..'

And I thought it was pretty well known that LJ didn't 'have to sell' Kodjia, the decision was left to him and MA, having said that though, I fully appreciate that JK's head was well and truly turned by the Villa approach and we couldn't have turned down that sort of money. But good luck to Kodjia, he kept us up with loads of goals and moved on giving us a huge profit.

Season ticket sales are 5% lower than same time last season and we weren't confirmed safe. 5% is not insignificant but we will approach the same amount of sales by the time the season starts. That's a start. Next I personally know many city fans and not one has said LJ should go. They admit he could've went but he didn't and everyone is on board with it. Only on here do I see LJ should still go. 

My Tammy argument was only to show how fresh they each are in their developments. Tammy and LJ are in similar stages. Tammy at the start of his playing career and LJ as a coach. They're both developing and it was an analogy. 

As you said, his head was turned and it wouldn't have benefitted keeping him. We had a whole summer with Kodjia in camp building around him then his head is turned a few weeks before the window closes. It wasn't ideal. 

Its definitely been up for debate with LJ. If he would've been sacked I would've not been bothered. He was poor enough to be sacked. SL sees more of it than I do so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. One thing about LJ, and I said this on Boxing Day when we lost to wolves and the grumblings were getting louder, that he is developing players. That day I hadn't seen Brownhill play for months but he had a great performance in midfield. If that is LJs doing then he's doing a good job. Relegation would've halted that but he pulled us from it and I think we'll be much better for it. I have said before i think next season and the season after will be the fun ones for us. It's my opinion based on the business we've done. 

I just want to believe in the best of everyone at the club. I want us to progress in all facets of the club. I realise results are the most important thing but I think we are growing. Now if everyone can just quietly go about their business it'll help. They did themselves no favours with the premier league and Europa league comments at the start of the year. 

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14 minutes ago, Chivs said:

I'm not confusing anything.  Do you agree, even during the worst losing streak in our club's history, that Ashton Gate, by a huge majority, were not calling for Johnson's head?

Yet, meanwhile, a few of the usual suspects on here, were bleating on about "boycotts".  That, I might add, did not happen.

Correct, organised boycotts didn't happen although there were at least a couple of matches where the ACTUAL attendance versus the official one would have been very different. But as others have said he's here now come what may after doing a great job of turning his own mess around. Next season there is no mess to recover so he will be judged on what he does then. If people aren't calling for his head then that's good because we will be doing alright. Lose 16 in 20 like he did this season and he won't get a third chance however much the Benefactor wants him to succeed.

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Vocally , no of course not

Maybe you can answer mine 

'Do you accept that not vocally calling for his head at AG does not automatically mean they do not have concerns to varying degrees about him ?'

Do you accept that not calling for him vocally means that people do not want him out?

As to your question, I imagine fans at ManUre have concerns about Mourinho to varying degrees.  What's your point?

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2 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Do you accept that not calling for him vocally means that people do not want him out?

No I don't

As to your question, I imagine fans at ManUre have concerns about Mourinho to varying degrees.  What's your point?

Havnt a clue what you're on about - it was you making the initial 'point' in this thread and I simply pointed out that you were linking two things that weren't necessarily related -

getting hard work this

 

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