Tomlin

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 5/8/2017 at 15:16, Jack Dawe said:

An excellent free-kick v Villa to ensure 3 points.

A text-book, inch perfect assist for Marlon v Leeds (looks simple, but how many times do pro players mess the simple up?)

A clever, self-less assist for Tammy at Barnsley

A brilliant individual run and unselfish put-it-on-a-plate for Luke Freeman (even he couldn't miss) at Fulham.

Hit the bar v Derby with a brilliant volley/technique. Plus a (pointless) rabona! v Derby.

An outrageous, and high-risk, quickly taken free-kick just outside our box in the 89th minute after 89 minutes of fruitless toil v Blackburn, catching their defence off-balance as they retreated quickly, setting Wilbs away to score late winner with a deflected shot. 19 times out of 20 that would not have come off but this was a 1/20 moment....

A brilliant dribble and (deflected, I think, but anyway) shot to score v Hull. Gave a bored 16k half an hour of something-worth-watching, along with Tammy, when brought on, and a goal to cheer.

The penalty at home v Ipswich was important.

Won a pen and converted it home v Weds.

First goal at home v Huddersfield.

 

So, not quite "done nothing" but certainly, nowhere near enough for a record signing and the wages, etc. Massive disappointment and we can do without anymore disruption (if that's what has gone on) or "preciousness" next season. First and foremost, we need a team.

 

 

The thing that stands out with that list- and I know he played less post Xmas, but he seemed to fade badly and fast. Only 2 of those from mid December onwards- the Home games v Weds and Huddersfield. Indeed the first 7 came by the end of October!

I think it was a fair signing too- given his 2nd half of season form. I know it wasn't feasible but I do often wonder- how would Tomlin flanked by Kodjia and Paterson with Tammy leading the line have done?? Fantasy football I dare say or even Tomlin behind Kodjia and Tammy...

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 09/05/2017 at 09:36, Onthefence said:

Tomlin is a bit of a luxury, He reminds me of Mark Gavin or Lee Trundle, plays 2 good games out of 5 and in the other 3 you wonder why he's on the pitch. No doubting his ability, but in a league as competative as the Championship does he really justify a starting place every week ? Perhaps he preferred being the top dog and fan's favouite last season - and Tammy rather stole his thunder this time around. 

Personally id get rid - we need quality and consistency and players that will give 100% every week. 

I disagree that Mark Gavin was a 'luxury player' - no way, a vital, hard-working part of Joe Jordan's superb 89/90 team

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I disagree that Mark Gavin was a 'luxury player' - no way, a vital, hard-working part of Joe Jordan's superb 89/90 team

Agreed.  I think we've only had four true 'luxury players' in my lifetime: Djiekanowski, Trundle, Emmanuel-Thomas and Tomlin.  None of them were a success at the end of the day.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

"Nothing wrong with the man management" no, as you say, with someone with a poor attitude, there's only so much that can be done. But what you have overlooked there is the judgement in the first place, the over-confidence of LJ last summer - witness, the "Europa League" comment - the super-confidence in himself. Go back and look at LJ's comments when Tomlin signed and LJ makes reference to Tomlin's character and need to be handled carefully. He knew what he was taking on but thought he could cope (where Eddie Howe could not!)

Europa Leauge comment was misguided of course. Turning to knew what he was getting and thought he could cope where Eddie Howe could not; I think you're being very harsh. Consider the context: LT was signed by EH to play for Bmouth in the Premier League having been POTS at his previous club. LT arrives with a bad attitude, months later he cannot get a game and is loaned out to a team in the division below fighting relegation. He comes here, puts in stellar performances and becomes an instant hit with the fans. He talks about how great it is to feel loved again and finding his passion for football again.

This is not thinking you could succeed where Howe could not. It was like we were getting someone different from what Howe had - someone who's experiences at Bmouth will have rounded that chip on his shoulder. Unfortunately as soon as we showed our desperation for him his ego grew; again. Daresay getting bombed out of here will make him a better player for his next club (short term), just as it did for us.

The judgement on the player - whether to sign or not - comes before the man management; get the judgement in recruitment right, and the man management takes care of itself.

It's almost clairevoyance to try to pick a player that will fit in with each 11 in the squad, the subs, the reserves, the youth, the coaches etc. There probably isn't a single player that would be capable of getting along with everyone. As long as you're not recruiting a total tool, largely it must be down to being adult and professional.

Ah, but everyone wanted him to sign, will be one retort. Yes, but as SL told us recently, we don't make "informed decisions," we have limited information to go on. Whereas LJ had worked with him for 4 months and can talk to people within in the game - to get Tomlin's "DNA" - and still he signed him.

Those 4 months LT was probably on best behaviour as the new kid in school and was playing for a way out of Bmouth (although perhaps admittedly he didn't bank on it being us he would get bought by ultimately). Hardly going to be a true reflection of the man.

"can talk to people within the game". He could; not sure I see value in this. People are different in different workplaces and in different cultures. Whilst you can gather as much information as you damn well like, I think 99% of the time you can only tell once someone is in situ - and four months whilst they are on probation is not that indicative.

This signing and failure to produce highlights LJ's lack of experience, and smacks of his over-confidence in himself - in his (annual) guardian interview last summer, he talked about "emotional intelligence" separating the "men from the boys" amongst pro coaches, but his "EQ" failed him with Tomlin. Pretty big talk to set yourself up as a "man" amongst coaches; think he has a way to go there, as his Tomlin problem suggests.

He's bought a lot of players in his career, many of which he has developed. LT appears to be the one black mark, and it is a big one of course. But I'm not judging his career, abilities, or even man management skills based upon one known-to-be-difficult rogue who didn't reform when he was last handed his arse. Seriously, I mean LT fails at Bmouth due to attitude comes here and has an attitude... Why do we look to blame the man that bought him and not just say LT appears to be an asshole?!

And then there is Adam Matthews.

You cannot manage that which doesn't want to play.

This inexperience very nearly cost us our Championship status this season (in the opinion, the uninformed opinion, of course; like your "nothing wrong with the man management" comment) and goes some way to explaining so much of the "noise" around LJ and SL this season. 

I think this is worth adding to your "nothing wrong with the man management" comment, to give a more balanced, albeit "uninformed," view.

 

 

[Norn Iron]

What if......

LT was signed by SL and not LJ? It's all what ifs but it makes sense. Read on. ...

We know that SL was responsible for getting Wilbs into the team as he'd met him in a gym whilst on holiday. What if SL thought he could do something similar with LT without LJ's backing? Most fans on OTIB wanted hin signed after all.

If LJ wasn't at all enthusiastic about having him in the squad because of issues during the loan season, SL would've known about Lee's thoughts. Yet SL had bought a player that wasn't at the request of the appointed manager. Furthermore, having made known to the public how BCFC had a process for buying players, SL had gone against it. 

So......SL realised after a few months that he had acted foolishly and that LJ's concerns about LT had been proven correct (whatever they were, we can only guess). SL realised he needed to back his manager because of this blunder and that's why he wasn't sacked during our awfully bad run of games. LJ was proven correct over his analysis of LT and SL agreed subsequently.

LT and SL have no need to make it public as they are still colleagues/friends and whilst LT is on the books he's an asset that needs to be sold to recoup as much of the outlay as possible.

To discuss the LT problems in public is not only bad for all parties concerned but would lower the price for LT with his alleged issues.

I told you it was a What if. It makes sense though even if it's a load of rubbish!

My next What if will be about Hitler escaping to South America in 1945......oh wait a minute, he did.

[Jack Dawe]

@29AR  "And then there is Adam Matthews" as in, LJ's judgement, to go back for him, fizzy pop and all. It is LJ's judgement that has been exposed, as much as anything, in my uninformed opinion (guess). Who do we bring in? What is he like in the group? How professional is he? How professional is he in his own time? How will he fit in? What are the pros and cons? etc etc. 

And with Tomlin and Matthews, he called it wrong having worked with them for 4 months already! Perhaps he mistook their willingness to perform during a short loan (last season) for his own ability to get the best out of them? Who knows.

As I said elsewhere, get the recruitment (judgement) wrong and you are asking too much of your man management skills. 

Also, the idea that we "grew" Tomlin's "ego." Blimey. What were we ever doing going anywhere near someone like that (and the "talking to people in the game" is the "DNA" checking that is talked up when things are going well, but you think this is nonsense then, that you can get advice from others in the game regarding the character of a potential player?) This is simply a mess of LJ's making he was unable - not surprisingly - to "man manage" his way out of. 

Instead of "man managing" his expensive and most talented players, he dropped them and picked players he could "trust" instead. Well, that is at least "squad management" at least but not very "cost effective" I wouldn't have thought.

You are offering a lot of mitigation there that you probably wouldn't have to for many other more experienced coaches, given the comparatively favourable position he was in here last summer and the resources available to him.

I'm not judging LJ on LT alone, either. See Adam Matthews. And the season as a whole. But, we survived, and LJ has another go this summer. Older, more experienced, hopefully wiser, and I would think, a little more humble. 

I don't "hate" LJ, or want him to fail, but I do think his inexperience was exposed last season and gave us a very unpleasant four months or so. 

 

[View from the Dolman]

5 minutes ago, Norn Iron said:

We know that SL was responsible for getting Wilbs into the team as he'd met him in a gym whilst on holiday.

Was SL on holiday with Steve Cotterill?

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Was SL on holiday with Steve Cotterill?

Ha ha, I spotted that too.  Can just picture SC in his muscle vest and shorts and SL with his tie tucked into his shirt helping each other with some bench presses.  Perhaps this was an uncompromising position that Wilbs saw and that's how he got his deal here 

@Jack Dawe - I can't work out Adam Matthews.  He was just as lack-lustre when I've seen him outside of AG.  The only think I can think of is that his loan spell in 15/16 was him trying to get into the Wales squad.  When that didn't happen, he couldn't be bothered.

[Norn Iron]

17 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Was SL on holiday with Steve Cotterill?

Blast and triple blast! 

All this time I had thought that it was Steve L that had bumped into him in that gym. Now I've just googled it only to read I've been misled all along.

What's worse is that I've wasted 40 mins of my life, typing with one finger, a what's if story that has been disproven on the grounds of stupidity with me subsequently agreeing! 

I still think Hitler escaped to South America in 1945 though. I'm not saying which Hitler....could've been Adolf or Eddie.

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

As an addition to my post above, I would say, that without the added problems of "man managing" difficult players like Tomlin and Matthews, take that away, and I do think that LJ can coach and improve younger, or "lesser," players. Like he was starting to do at Barnsley. Stick to up-and-coming ones, LJ, younger players that will be "all ears" and ready to lap up your ideas.

This 

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Totally agree JD.

His inexperience will be challenged by experienced players or players who've played at better levels.  I think he will focus on the younger types.

id be happy with a young, energetic team, with the oldies being Flint, Frankie etc.

And this 

It's become clear to me that LJs best chance is working with younger players as you've both outlined

Whether its to a degreee that'll will enable to  stabilise or  progress I have more hope than belief 

[Ivorguy]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Agreed.  I think we've only had four true 'luxury players' in my lifetime: Djiekanowski, Trundle, Emmanuel-Thomas and Tomlin.  None of them were a success at the end of the day.

I would add Arthur Milton and Chris Crowe to that list. What do they all share in common?  Better football brains than most of the rest of the side they played in.

[Fordy62]

I've not read much of this thread but despite his disappointing season, be under no illusions... Lee Tomlin is the best footballer at Bristol City, by a long shot. And it's in everyone's interests that he's with us next season firing on all cylinders. Especially given we don't have Tammy any more. 

[Major Isewater]

17 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I've not read much of this thread but despite his disappointing season, be under no illusions... Lee Tomlin is the best footballer at Bristol City, by a long shot. And it's in everyone's interests that he's with us next season firing on all cylinders. Especially given we don't have Tammy any more. 

I don't think anyone would disagree if he's ' firing on all cylinders ' . 

He was at the top of his game when on loan but since then has done a Franz Klammer .

 I believe he sees himself as a cross between Maradona and Thierry Henry and if he's accorded all due respect he performs.

However we saw that high tempo energy is what's needed by our team to progress not an attribute readily associated with the mighty Tomlin.  

 What do we do ? 

Have everybody else running about for him so that he can shake his shimmy ?

A riddle within a conundrum isn't it ?

 

[Monkeh]

31 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I've not read much of this thread but despite his disappointing season, be under no illusions... Lee Tomlin is the best footballer at Bristol City, by a long shot. And it's in everyone's interests that he's with us next season firing on all cylinders. Especially given we don't have Tammy any more. 

he is a talented footballer no doubt, but the rest of the team aren't good enough to accommodate him when he's having a off game (which happened far to often this season), I don't think we can afford to caryy him when he's not producing

[RedM]

I think it is a shame but we spent most of the season trying to build our team around him, whilst shoving him around within the team, with very little success on the whole. So I guess we have a choice to get yet more players to try to recreate his loan spell, make him fit into the team or offload? As I said previously, would we be considering signing him if he had been on loan this season, I think many would have packed his bags for him by now?

Personally I think we will offload. Lee probably could do without the rumoured hassle. Tomlin loves the chase judging by all the cryptic Tweets last summer, and he needs to be loved too. At times he's looked quite dejected when stood watching as fans clambered for Tammy after games. I think he will go back to Boro, but we will take quite a loss. The move will suit him, save about 30 miles on his commute and he will be the returning hero.

[downendcity]

7 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

he is a talented footballer no doubt, but the rest of the team aren't good enough to accommodate him when he's having a off game (which happened far to often this season), I don't think we can afford to caryy him when he's not producing

Monkeh,

Your signature looks like a post.

As a result, at the moment when I read a post of yours, the only thing I am thinking is what ever was in the post to which Monkeh is responding that results in a  reply "There was a humongous king size dreadnought left in trap 2 of the central Dolman toilets at the last home game. A proper pipe blocker."!

[downendcity]

14 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I don't think anyone would disagree if he's ' firing on all cylinders ' . 

He was at the top of his game when on loan but since then has done a Franz Klammer .

 I believe he sees himself as a cross between Maradona and Thierry Henry and if he's accorded all due respect he performs.

However we saw that high tempo energy is what's needed by our team to progress not an attribute readily associated with the mighty Tomlin.  

 What do we do ? 

Have everybody else running about for him so that he can shake his shimmy ?

A riddle within a conundrum isn't it ?

 

For too much of the season he was a cross between Madonna and Lenny Henry! 

[Super]

48 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I've not read much of this thread but despite his disappointing season, be under no illusions... Lee Tomlin is the best footballer at Bristol City, by a long shot. And it's in everyone's interests that he's with us next season firing on all cylinders. Especially given we don't have Tammy any more. 

Talent wise probably yes but much more to being a footballer than that.

[Monkeh]

10 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Monkeh,

Your signature looks like a post.

As a result, at the moment when I read a post of yours, the only thing I am thinking is what ever was in the post to which Monkeh is responding that results in a  reply "There was a humongous king size dreadnought left in trap 2 of the central Dolman toilets at the last home game. A proper pipe blocker."!

fixed it for you

[downendcity]

31 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

fixed it for you

There was no need, but it was a bit noticeable - a bit like said dreadnought in trap 2!

 

[leadman]

20 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Dont know how he got motm in that game. He kept giving it away. Although it was one of his better performances, still nowhere near the tomlin of the previous season.

do we blame him or the way we lined up though?

[Mr X]

Seems as if Tomlin is to out it bluntly a 'bad egg'' You can regularly see him mouthing off at certain players if they make a mistake which will help to blow there confidence. Think it's time for him to go as it's just as important to have good people as well as good footballers in the squad. 

[Son of Fred]

18 hours ago, Norn Iron said:

Blast and triple blast! 

All this time I had thought that it was Steve L that had bumped into him in that gym. Now I've just googled it only to read I've been misled all along.

What's worse is that I've wasted 40 mins of my life, typing with one finger, a what's if story that has been disproven on the grounds of stupidity with me subsequently agreeing! 

I still think Hitler escaped to South America in 1945 though. I'm not saying which Hitler....could've been Adolf or Eddie.

Aye-and he had a couple of weeks in Tenerife, towel and all,on his way there....

[Norn Iron]

BobTB,

Indeed but the towel bit was not mentioned in the History Channel's superb Hunting Hitler.

Fake news! Enough of this ahem flannel.

[Monkeh]

2 hours ago, leadman said:

do we blame him or the way we lined up though?

we tried to accommodate him, it didn't work and I don't see that changing next season,

[havanatopia]

Ashton and Johnson took a punt on him; his reputation for, shall we put it politely, being moody was well documented at Boro and B'Mouth. Should they have done? That is the question. He impressed hugely in his loan spell and then, apart from a few highlights, largely faded away amongst rumours of bust ups. 

On the one hand A and J have to put their hands up and say we could not manage him or we simply got it wrong. It must be one or the other and if its the former, which I tend to buy more into, then they should have understood his background much much more than they did. If its the latter then we are saying he is not the best of footballers in the system adopted. 

Assuming we are writing his epitaph; as the thrust of this thread is suggesting, then the management made a mistake, whichever way you look at it. If we are not saying goodbye then they must find a way to incorporate him into the team more appropriately and manage him better which means motivating without being patronizing or condescending. Admittedly, it must be hard if Tomlin is insubordinate but it achieves little by playing into his hands and banishing him or playing him out of position both of which demotivate a very talented player. I hope they can find a way.