A tale of two managers - LJ bouncing & Cotts respect

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 hours ago, JHAGa said:

Because fans were no doubt asking him to do it? Or was he doing it for the fun?

A few were asking, I'd estimate an over excitable/over inebriated 1-2% of the fans present joined in.

It didn't catch on at all, even a few boos.

In contrast what a fantastic show of genuine respect and affection from thousands of City fans for Steve Cotterill after the game.

And the feeling was clearly mutual.

Thoroughly well deserved ovation and prolonged chanting, and it seems a great number of Bristol City fans have been waiting for the chance to show their appreciation once again to SC for providing one of the most memorable seasons of their City supporting lives.

Despite the spiteful comments of a few on here Cotts. obviously remains very, very popular amongst City fans - the sort of popularity LJ can only dream about, and will likely never come close to matching.

Great to see you back at Ashton Gate today Cotts. Winner. 

[One Team]

19 minutes ago, Septic Peg said:

This a thousand times...

 

Cotts got the boot when City lost form and went to shit. LJ was kept on when City lost form and went to shit.

What does LJ have that Cotts didn't? Friends in high places. LJ was given a blank cheque book and a shopping trolley. Cotts got sweet FA apart from Kodj. The board didn't support him...

This is all fact.

A completely ridiculous scenario and one I am still outraged by but you are correct.

I blame SL for everything. If he had backed SC the way he has backed LJ I firmly believe we would be better placed. 

[Fishponds_Red]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

 Nor are you going to change minds with your constant tedious criticism of people with views on what happened and the under qualified "head coach" Lansdown deems worthy of being in charge of our club.

Johnson Out.

 

 

You really are a prat.  You are not a Bristol City fan 

[Rob k]

8 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

I'll be fair to Johnson, but it does rankle just a bit, that the bloke who gave us that great double season only got half a season's bash at it. AND the reason given was sacked due to poor results , where the truth is, it wasnt that.

It doesn't rankle one bit with me, make no mistake we were only going one way with SC in charge. 

It was the right decision to sack him 

[BRISTOL86]

Given a hero's return. By the same people booing and spouting abuse at him during his last few weeks with us. 

Funny old game. 

What he did for us at L1 level was fantastic and he'll always be held in high regard for me as a result. 

Unfortunately his stubbornness to accept that something needed to change cost him his job. His blind faith in a completely failing system was laughable - and when a manager would rather lose 'his way' than accept the advice of his staff and change things, it's only ever going to go one way. 

For all LJs many faults and mistakes this season, blind faith in something that is not working isn't one of them. 

As for the complete fallacy that SC wasn't backed in the transfer market, I'd love to know where this came from. Kodjia didn't cost much less than Tomlin who is still our record signing and that would have been smashed if either Gayle or Gray actually wanted to come here - both targets under the tenure of Steve Cotterill. But they didn't. 

Yes we've spent more money on transfers under Johnson than Cotterill but how people equate that to meaning Cotterill wasn't backed I don't know. Bristol City managers have always been backed. 

Lets also not forget than the board knew full well that Kodjia wouldn't see out the August window with us and I've no doubt at all that this coloured the amount of funds made available. We just didn't need to wait to sell before we could buy like many other clubs do. 

Johnson also inherited a threadbare squad which is only now up to a normal level of numbers for this level. 

As for the non story of 'bouncing' on stage when asked to do so, is this what we have to resort to now results have turned around to get an anti-LJ thread going? Jesus Christ.

The man has taken - at times - truly appalling abuse and blew off some steam at the end of the season. Bit of a non story isn't it?

[Bristol Rob]

8 hours ago, Septic Peg said:

 

What does LJ have that Cotts didn't? Friends in high places. LJ was given a blank cheque book and a shopping trolley. Cotts got sweet FA apart from Kodj. The board didn't support him...

This is all fact.

Of the two managers being discussed, how many of them have bid 9 million quid for players?

Would it be the one who got sweet FA?

Can't help but think if SC went for realistic targets rather than the bonkers ones.

[Benjam!n Ultra]

7 hours ago, Fishponds_Red said:

You really are a prat.  You are not a Bristol City fan 

Shut up you bell. People are entitled to their own opinion. 

I'm sorry if you're a bit simple but this 'theme' this forum has of accusing people of not being proper fans is so bizarre. Makes you sound very, let's say, unlucky in life. 

Grow up. 

[The Coach]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

Of the two managers being discussed, how many of them have bid 9 million quid for players?

Would it be the one who got sweet FA?

Can't help but think if SC went for realistic targets rather than the bonkers ones.

 

You do know Managers/Head Coaches do not directly deal with transfers? This also involves having no final say on fees.....

[Shtanley]

We're in an better position under LJ than we ever could've been under SC. SC did f all for young players and the youth setup. Practically ignored them and wouldn't even fill the bench with them. I'm glad he went when he did and I like the fact we got LJ in, I like the fact we've kept him on too. 

It's the fans that are lessening the meaning of the bounce by singing it, not LJ by joining in. In the same way every bloody player gets a standing ovation nowadays. Means that when one is actually merited it's significance is reduced. 

[petehinton]

Just now, Shtanley said:

We're in an better position under LJ than we ever could've been under SC. SC did f all for young players and the youth setup. Practically ignored them and wouldn't even fill the bench with them. I'm glad he went when he did and I like the fact we got LJ in, I like the fact we've kept him on too. 

It's the fans that are lessening the meaning of the bounce by singing it, not LJ by joining in. In the same way every bloody player gets a standing ovation nowadays. Means that when one is actually merited it's significance is reduced. 

did nothing ever than make Joe Bryan a nailed on starter every game, Bobby Reid a well used squad player and brought Wes Burns back from the oblivion?

What exactly has LJ done? Ruin Bryan, banish Reid, sold Burns, loaned out 19 year olds to the conference...? Spent £3m on Magnusson and not put him in the squad?

Give Cotterill this squad and we're mid table.

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, petehinton said:

did nothing ever than make Joe Bryan a nailed on starter every game, Bobby Reid a well used squad player and brought Wes Burns back from the oblivion?

What exactly has LJ done? Ruin Bryan, banish Reid, sold Burns, loaned out 19 year olds to the conference...? Spent £3m on Magnusson and not put him in the squad?

Give Cotterill this squad and we're mid table.

LJ ruined Bryan?! Haha give over. He's been awful at this level from the off.

Saint Cotterill was the one who sold the considerably better left back to accommodate one of his boys who could do no wrong. Reid is average at best and Burns has never done anything of note in a City shirt. 

[Shtanley]

12 minutes ago, petehinton said:

did nothing ever than make Joe Bryan a nailed on starter every game, Bobby Reid a well used squad player and brought Wes Burns back from the oblivion?

What exactly has LJ done? Ruin Bryan, banish Reid, sold Burns, loaned out 19 year olds to the conference...? Spent £3m on Magnusson and not put him in the squad?

Give Cotterill this squad and we're mid table.

Cotterill wouldn't have created this squad. He'd still be playing 352. He said himself he wished he could've loaned Burns out if only he could've signed more strikers. But he couldn't because he wanted to pay several million for them. How many young signings did he make? How many youth players got a chance despite him not having enough of a squad to fill a bench? 

Then you have LJ, Vyner, O'Dowda, Brownhill, McCoulsky, Moore, Lucic, Dowling, Engvall, Magnusson. He's made countless young signings and given many of them and others game time. Cotterill did bugger all of that and was hopeless with any kind of youth player. Thank god we didn't see him as a long term managerial option, there's no way you're having a sustainable model with him in charge. 

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, Shtanley said:

Cotterill wouldn't have created this squad. He'd still be playing 352. He said himself he wished he could've loaned Burns out if only he could've signed more strikers. But he couldn't because he wanted to pay several million for them. How many young signings did he make? How many youth players got a chance despite him not having enough of a squad to fill a bench? 

Then you have LJ, Vyner, O'Dowda, Brownhill, McCoulsky, Moore, Lucic, Dowling, Engvall, Magnusson. He's made countless young signings and given many of them and others game time. Cotterill did bugger all of that and was hopeless with any kind of youth player. Thank god we didn't see him as a long term managerial option, there's no way you're having a sustainable model with him in charge. 

Quite agree, I think the difference between then is that SC is one of those 'old school' managers, who wants to have at his disposal a squad of senior professionals, LJ seems to be more of a modern 'coach' looking to improve players and to actively invest in a long term strategy.

[glynriley]

33 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Cotterill wouldn't have created this squad. He'd still be playing 352. He said himself he wished he could've loaned Burns out if only he could've signed more strikers. But he couldn't because he wanted to pay several million for them. How many young signings did he make? How many youth players got a chance despite him not having enough of a squad to fill a bench? 

Then you have LJ, Vyner, O'Dowda, Brownhill, McCoulsky, Moore, Lucic, Dowling, Engvall, Magnusson. He's made countless young signings and given many of them and others game time. Cotterill did bugger all of that and was hopeless with any kind of youth player. Thank god we didn't see him as a long term managerial option, there's no way you're having a sustainable model with him in charge. 

Freeman and Ayling were 22 when Cotterill signed them, Korey 23.

Vyner, Moore, Lucic, Dowling (has he been in a squad this season??) and Engvall have hardly featured so not sure why you've used them to champion LJ's cause.

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Given a hero's return. By the same people booing and spouting abuse at him during his last few weeks with us. 

Funny old game. 

I'm sure they weren't the same people at all.

The majority of the thousands who gave SC that memorable ovation would have been fans who never wanted him to go and wish he was still the City manager, particularly given who followed.

I hope SL was still there to witness the great affection SC is still held in by so many.

If he was in any doubt about the size of the rod he made for his own back by dismissing SC and replacing him with LJ he certainly won't be after seeing the differing receptions the 2 of them received.

[Shtanley]

8 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Freeman and Ayling were 22 when Cotterill signed them, Korey 23.

Vyner, Moore, Lucic, Dowling (has he been in a squad this season??) and Engvall have hardly featured so not sure why you've used them to champion LJ's cause.

 

Because he's buying players for the future as well as now. Cotterill did none of that, was only about the short term success. I fully expect players like moore, Lucic and Engvall to feature in years to come. Cotterill would've never given players like Vyner or Dowling a chance at all that's why they're in there. 

[glynriley]

Just now, Shtanley said:

Because he's buying players for the future as well as now. Cotterill did none of that, was only about the short term success. I fully expect players like moore, Lucic and Engvall to feature in years to come. Cotterill would've never given players like Vyner or Dowling a chance at all that's why they're in there. 

How much of a chance has LJ given Dowling? 2 sub appearances in end of season dead rubbers? Nothing at all this season.

I'd leave that name out of any "LJ is a champion of youth" arguments you want to make.

 

[bearded_red]

Am I allowed to think that it was right for Cotterill to go when he did, but also that Johnson should have been sacked months ago?

[SARJ]

1 minute ago, bearded_red said:

Am I allowed to think that it was right for Cotterill to go when he did, but also that Johnson should have been sacked months ago?

I agree with this guy.

I still can't believe that Johnson had a job after the Preston away result. If that would have been any other manager, not a personal family friend of our owner, at that point in the season when we were consistently struggling, he'd have been sacked.

[Shtanley]

10 minutes ago, glynriley said:

How much of a chance has LJ given Dowling? 2 sub appearances in end of season dead rubbers? Nothing at all this season.

I'd leave that name out of any "LJ is a champion of youth" arguments you want to make.

 

Fair enough. At least he played him though. Cotterill didn't even use him over an empty subs bench. 

[Kid in the Riot]

After the game on Ashton Road someone asked SC if he was fcuked over by the board in the summer of 2015. I was in attendance and his response was very telling.

It took him an age to walk down Ashton Road (and this was about 3.30pm) as fans were stopping him asking for photos, shaking his hand etc. One woman had even bought him a bottle of whiskey as a present but he declined it as said he didn't drink.

 

[Red-Robbo]

11 hours ago, Septic Peg said:

This a thousand times...

 

Cotts got the boot when City lost form and went to shit. LJ was kept on when City lost form and went to shit.

What does LJ have that Cotts didn't? Friends in high places. LJ was given a blank cheque book and a shopping trolley. Cotts got sweet FA apart from Kodj. The board didn't support him...

This is all fact.

They supported him enough to allow him to make bids for two highly expensive players, one who wanted PL wages.

LJ has benefited from the fact that larger attendances have allowed him to run up a bigger wage bill (Cotts was constrained by having cash to spend determined on the tiny attendances we had when we were a club playing in a three-sided ground in L1).

LJ also had the Kodj millions. You can't blame him for accepting that very generous bid, nor for spending the windfall. Any manager who had inherited a very small squad of players would have done the same.

Some of Johnson's buys have been successes, some haven't. As with Cotts's purchases.

So, the board had little to do with the fact that Johnson had more money to spend. They weren't sat their thinking: "We don't like Steve Cotterill. We won't give him enough dosh to do his job. Let's watch the side we bankroll slip back down to League One just to spite him. It'll mean we have to staunch even more financial losses in future, but let's do it for the LOLZ!"

As I said on my first post on this thread. I like and respect Steve Cotterill. Would he have made City a success if he had the resources LJ has had? We can't know, but his record in the second tier is patchy to say the least.

Unlike some, I haven't forgotten August 2015-January 2016. Knocked out the league cup by Luton. Four goal thumpings by Burnley, Derby, Birmingham, Fulham, Brentford.

It was a dark and depressing time, and it only took a modicum of tinkering from John Pemberton to start to get the side winning again, while the "useless" Lee Johnson was able to fairly easily pull us out of relegation danger. and actually gave us two games where WE scored four for a change - and one game where we scored six!

[BRISTOL86]

57 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm sure they weren't the same people at all.

The majority of the thousands who gave SC that memorable ovation would have been fans who never wanted him to go and wish he was still the City manager, particularly given who followed.

I hope SL was still there to witness the great affection SC is still held in by so many.

If he was in any doubt about the size of the rod he made for his own back by dismissing SC and replacing him with LJ he certainly won't be after seeing the differing receptions the 2 of them received.

Ha! Some people have very short memories. You'd have struggled to find anyone by the time he got sacked that still wanted him to be our manager.

We were getting thrashed routinely and on a head on collision course for League One. And let's not forget abusing your own fans which is what ultimately cost him his job. 

[BRISTOL86]

27 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

They supported him enough to allow him to make bids for two highly expensive players, one who wanted PL wages.

LJ has benefited from the fact that larger attendances have allowed him to run up a bigger wage bill (Cotts was constrained by having cash to spend determined on the tiny attendances we had when we were a club playing in a three-sided ground in L1).

LJ also had the Kodj millions. You can't blame him for accepting that very generous bid, nor for spending the windfall. Any manager who had inherited a very small squad of players would have done the same.

Some of Johnson's buys have been successes, some haven't. As with Cotts's purchases.

So, the board had little to do with the fact that Johnson had more money to spend. They weren't sat their thinking: "We don't like Steve Cotterill. We won't give him enough dosh to do his job. Let's watch the side we bankroll slip back down to League One just to spite him. It'll mean we have to staunch even more financial losses in future, but let's do it for the LOLZ!"

As I said on my first post on this thread. I like and respect Steve Cotterill. Would he have made City a success if he had the resources LJ has had? We can't know, but his record in the second tier is patchy to say the least.

Unlike some, I haven't forgotten August 2015-January 2016. Knocked out the league cup by Luton. Four goal thumpings by Burnley, Derby, Birmingham, Fulham, Brentford.

It was a dark and depressing time, and it only took a modicum of tinkering from John Pemberton to start to get the side winning again, while the "useless" Lee Johnson was able to fairly easily pull us out of relegation danger. and actually gave us two games where WE scored four for a change - and one game where we scored six!

Nail on the head. 

[KingLear]

I stand to be corrected if i'm wrong, but wasn't part of the reason that SC was shown the door his complete unwillingness to change line-up/formations (which was heavily criticised on here) and continued in this vein, even though we were on a terrible run?

Alternatively, we had a massively bad run this season under LJ and he was changing the line-up/formations to try and find a way out of it for which he was heavily criticised for not knowing his best team.

As some have said, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes. 

[Kid in the Riot]

25 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

So, the board had little to do with the fact that Johnson had more money to spend. They weren't sat their thinking: "We don't like Steve Cotterill. We won't give him enough dosh to do his job. Let's watch the side we bankroll slip back down to League One just to spite him. It'll mean we have to staunch even more financial losses in future, but let's do it for the LOLZ!"

As I said on my first post on this thread. I like and respect Steve Cotterill. Would he have made City a success if he had the resources LJ has had? We can't know, but his record in the second tier is patchy to say the least.

Unlike some, I haven't forgotten August 2015-January 2016. Knocked out the league cup by Luton. Four goal thumpings by Burnley, Derby, Birmingham, Fulham, Brentford.

It was a dark and depressing time, and it only took a modicum of tinkering from John Pemberton to start to get the side winning again, while the "useless" Lee Johnson was able to fairly easily pull us out of relegation danger. and actually gave us two games where WE scored four for a change - and one game where we scored six!

Possibly not a  million miles from the truth.

 

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Possibly not a  million miles from the truth.

 

Yes sure, mate....

 

[Jack Dawe]

Cotts wanted to buy Andre Gray after he had scored 18 goals in a Championship season.

SL wants us to be able to spot and buy yer "Andre Grays" when they are scoring goals in the Conference, or L1 or L2. Because they won't cost as much and because we have more chance of getting them to come here (than when they are already scoring goals at this level).

It was a "philosophical" parting of the ways. Two different schools of thought.

So, SL brought in his acquaintance/chum, who, very grateful for the opportunity to coach at this level (in contrast to Cotterill, who earned his chance with promotions and tangible football success as much as any "networking" skills, or a combination of the two, at least; plus, knocking Burnley out of the cup while at Cheltenham) was only too happy to "buy into" what has come to be called SL's "project."

I think he has "bought into" a "big ask" for this club, at this level. And for a coach with relatively little experience. He will need time, as we have seen this season.

There is much to be said for harmony and all that "singing from the same hymn sheet" between head coach and owner, plenty of clubs come unstuck with cracks in this relationship; but at some point, LJ needs to unearth an "Andre Gray" and one that comes here on a 3 year contract, not a 12 month loan, too.

That's what this "project" needs to work. Funny that Cotterill turned an £8m (plus possible add ons, but also allowing for a % to go to Angry FC, France) profit on Kodjia in 13 months. Exactly what SL was after, I thought. LJ has some way to go to match that recruitment success story. At the moment, it isn't entirely clear whether he hasn't frittered rather too much of that profit away.

We shall see.

 

[BRISTOL86]

9 minutes ago, KingLear said:

I stand to be corrected if i'm wrong, but wasn't part of the reason that SC was shown the door his complete unwillingness to change line-up/formations (which was heavily criticised on here) and continued in this vein, even though we were on a terrible run?

Alternatively, we had a massively bad run this season under LJ and he was changing the line-up/formations to try and find a way out of it for which he was heavily criticised for not knowing his best team.

As some have said, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes. 

Yep. The fact that Cotterill would rather we lose playing 352 than take his staffs advice and try something new speaks volumes about his attitude. 

He will be forever a hero for delivering what he did below Championship level but his time with us at this level was complete and total failure.

For Johnson's many faults he desperately tried new things and accepted that what he was doing wasn't working. I'd rather that than someone so blinded by their own arrogance/blind faith that their way is the only way that we would routinely get hammered and still change nothing. 

Whether you like LJ or not he's a more successful manager with us at this level than SC was. And it's complete nonsense to say he wasn't financially supported

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

After the game on Ashton Road someone asked SC if he was fcuked over by the board in the summer of 2015. I was in attendance and his response was very telling.

It took him an age to walk down Ashton Road (and this was about 3.30pm) as fans were stopping him asking for photos, shaking his hand etc. One woman had even bought him a bottle of whiskey as a present but he declined it as said he didn't drink.

 

Yes, and likewise I was told by somebody who worked with SC of a very forthright comment and opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts wanted to buy Andre Gray after he had scored 18 goals in a Championship season.

SL wants us to be able to spot and buy yer "Andre Grays" when they are scoring goals in the Conference, or L1 or L2. Because they won't cost as much and because we have more chance of getting them to come here (than when they are already scoring goals at this level).

It was a "philosophical" parting of the ways. Two different schools of thought.

So, SL brought in his acquaintance/chum, who, very grateful for the opportunity to coach at this level (in contrast to Cotterill, who earned his chance with promotions and tangible football success as much as any "networking" skills, or a combination of the two, at least; plus, knocking Burnley out of the cup while at Cheltenham) was only too happy to "buy into" what has come to be called SL's "project."

I think he has "bought into" a "big ask" for this club, at this level. And for a coach with relatively little experience. He will need time, as we have seen this season.

There is much to be said for harmony and all that "singing from the same hymn sheet" between head coach and owner, plenty of clubs come unstuck with cracks in this relationship; but at some point, LJ needs to unearth an "Andre Gray" and one that comes here on a 3 year contract, not a 12 month loan, too.

That's what this "project" needs to work. Funny that Cotterill turned an £8m (plus possible add ons, but also allowing for a % to go to Angry FC, France) profit on Kodjia in 13 months. Exactly what SL was after, I thought. LJ has some way to go to match that recruitment success story. At the moment, it isn't entirely clear whether he hasn't frittered rather too much of that profit away.

We shall see.

 

Every word of that post is so bang on.