A tale of two managers - LJ bouncing & Cotts respect

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

10 hours ago, paulcityfan said:

A tale of 2 managers.  One I could still listen to in interviews- passionate beyond sense.  The other I just can't hear his nonsensical stories for a minute longer and I'm wondering how to avoid it next season 

I guess you didn't hear his interviews in the Championship especially towards the end of his tenure... bizarre, grating and embarrassing. Also delusional, that Reading away interview still makes me laugh and cringe.

Passionate guy but reminds me of Skeletor... needs to engage his brain before he speaks to media

[Alessandro]

Why the hankering after SC still? As if he is some kind of messiah - as if, given funds, he could have achieved something special. Take the rose tinted glasses off. Apologies in advance for doing the unthinkable now and questioning SC, but here goes:

SC has never showed anything other than bang average stats in the championship - 29% win ratio.

I see the phrase "track record" a lot when people talk about LJ - so there is a track record for you - 92 wins in 308 championship games for SC.

You can debate circumstances and situations of each club that he managed, but what those stats show, after managing 5 clubs in the championship over a 14 year period, he has never shown that he would be capable of working managerial magic on a budget in this division, never do anything special through fantastic coaching and developing of players. 

This isn't a LJ is better post - but i've said this in another thread. Let it sink in:

After City lost to Cardiff in October, we went on club worse run of defeats under LJ and over a period of 26 games we had 5 wins.

After we got promoted with SC, all that momentum and good feeling, Kodjia coming in etc - over his 26 games (before the sack) we had 4 wins.

So even in the "darkest times of my life as a city fan" and "heading one place and that's down" etc etc etc this season under LJ we won more than under SC in the championship.

 

P.S Thanks for 14/15 Steve, always a legend for that. But time to leave that where it is. In the past. 

[NickJ]

9 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Why the hankering after SC still? As if he is some kind of messiah - as if, given funds, he could have achieved something special. Take the rose tinted glasses off. Apologies in advance for doing the unthinkable now and questioning SC, but here goes:

SC has never showed anything other than bang average stats in the championship - 29% win ratio.

I see the phrase "track record" a lot when people talk about LJ - so there is a track record for you - 92 wins in 308 championship games for SC.

You can debate circumstances and situations of each club that he managed, but what those stats show, after managing 5 clubs in the championship over a 14 year period, he has never shown that he would be capable of working managerial magic on a budget in this division, never do anything special through fantastic coaching and developing of players. 

This isn't a LJ is better post - but i've said this in another thread. Let it sink in:

After City lost to Cardiff in October, we went on club worse run of defeats under LJ and over a period of 26 games we had 5 wins.

After we got promoted with SC, all that momentum and good feeling, Kodjia coming in etc - over his 26 games (before the sack) we had 4 wins.

So even in the "darkest times of my life as a city fan" and "heading one place and that's down" etc etc etc this season under LJ we won more than under SC in the championship.

 

P.S Thanks for 14/15 Steve, always a legend for that. But time to leave that where it is. In the past. 

To be fair, you have made some reasonable points there.

But the feeling that persists is what might of been, had the summer of 2015 gone the way it should have. 

Whoever fault that was, and we can all debate that with varying degrees of knowledge, SC deserved another chance, another window, to put it right. Not even the three windows which appears to be part of LJ's contract.

The sense of fair play in me says that, however you look at it, SC was shafted.

I do not believe I am alone in that.

 

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

6 hours ago, Up The City! said:

Different times back then. There wasn't the pressure you now get from social media etc. In today's football world he wouldn't get 3 years there.

They were steady under him but nothing spectacular. 

That was over 10 years ago and the Championship has changed dramatically in that time. Unfortunately SC hasnt changed with the times. With that in mind I stand by my 'ridiculous assertion'

Gary Johnson arguably one of our best managers in recent history who also had a long stay here is now managing at the bottom of league two. 

Dave Jones another one who is experienced and spent many years at Cardiff has just pretty much overseen Hartlepool be relegated from the football league.

Your point is entirely invalid as these old school managers are out of touch with the modern game.

If Cotts takes over at Birmingham I'll be staking a lot of money on them to be relegated. 

SC isn't an old school manager like GJ and Jones ( he's almost 10 years younger than either of them) It's well known he took time out of management to go abroad and study the training methods and formations of several successful clubs before taking over at City.

That's not the action of a managerial dinosaur, quite the opposite - it shows a willingness and determination to learn, adapt and improve.

Anyway, you're simply wrong when you said SC couldn't cut it at Championship level.

Your opinion against the facts of his CV?

Only one wInner there I'm afraid, and it's not you.

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

2 minutes ago, NickJ said:

To be fair, you have made some reasonable points there.

But the feeling that persists is what might of been, had the summer of 2015 gone the way it should have. 

Whoever fault that was, and we can all debate that with varying degrees of knowledge, SC deserved another chance, another window, to put it right. Not even the three windows which appears to be part of LJ's contract.

The sense of fair play in me says that, however you look at it, SC was shafted.

I do not believe I am alone in that.

 

 

He wasn't shafted, the context of your posts regarding SC is too blinkered. The mounting evidence showed he was out of his depth and became increasingly stubborn to change what was failing

Who was he shafted by? The board? How was he? By supposed transfers that the board didn't push through, so again you are of the belief that the board undermined SC and were jeopardizing the clubs position by not strengthening... which again is total BS

If he was that undermined he should've walked last summer, his stock was high he could've got a better job if one was available without harming is reputation. 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

SC isn't an old school manager like GJ and Jones ( he's almost 10 years younger than either of them) It's well known he took time out of management to go abroad and study the training methods and formations of several successful clubs before taking over at City.

That's not the action of a managerial dinosaur, quite the opposite - it shows a willingness and determination to learn, adapt and improve.

Anyway, you're simply wrong when you said SC couldn't cut it at Championship level.

Your opinion against the facts of his CV?

Only one wInner there I'm afraid, and it's not you.

 

He has a 29% win record at this level, hardly inspiring is it

[NickJ]

7 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

He wasn't shafted, the context of your posts regarding SC is too blinkered. The mounting evidence showed he was out of his depth and became increasingly stubborn to change what was failing

Who was he shafted by? The board? How was he? By supposed transfers that the board didn't push through, so again you are of the belief that the board undermined SC and were jeopardizing the clubs position by not strengthening... which again is total BS

If he was that undermined he should've walked last summer, his stock was high he could've got a better job if one was available without harming is reputation. 

Once again you choose to interpret my comments as being that he was deliberately shafted.

I am not saying that. I am saying that person or persons ****** up after SC had put in place, very early on, what would have been very significant, season changing, player purchases.

It may have been a mistake by those person(s), albeit a very amateur one, I accept that may have been the case.

But SC deserved better than the sacking. If not, I am yet to hear what makes LJ's record breaking losing run not worthy of similar, given that LJ does not even have the impressive prior 2 seasons to his name.

The feeling  grows that LJ was always destined to become Bristol City manager, no matter what. Indeed, @spudski, who appears to be "in the know", predicted exactly that on here, at the precise moment SC was securing us the League One title. 

It all seems a little odd. To say the least.

[Alessandro]

58 minutes ago, NickJ said:

To be fair, you have made some reasonable points there.

But the feeling that persists is what might of been, had the summer of 2015 gone the way it should have. 

Whoever fault that was, and we can all debate that with varying degrees of knowledge, SC deserved another chance, another window, to put it right. Not even the three windows which appears to be part of LJ's contract.

The sense of fair play in me says that, however you look at it, SC was shafted.

I do not believe I am alone in that.

 

 

We could discuss the summer of 2015 again, but we both know we'd quickly go round in circles. 

As for 'what might have been' - well of course, anything can happen. Leicester could win the premier league. 

The fact remains your argument for SC appears to hinge on this 'what might have been' aspect. On hearsay, whispers, gut feelings. Emotion. Not facts.

You say you're opinion of LJ (joke appointment, worst City manager etc) is based on logic, analysis and fact. Not emotion. ( Not that you've never forgiven him for actions as a player ). Well apply the same logic to SC, because in my opinion you're coming across as whimsical - "the sense of fair play" I think you said. 

• When SC was sacked we were adrift in the relegation zone, something we have never been under LJ.
• SC coupled this poor run - 4 wins in 26 games - with irrational interviews, refusal to play youth players or fill the bench.
• Rigidly stuck by the failing 3-5-2. Whichever you spin it, people think we underachieved this year, that team was under achieving under SC.
• Then we can add his overall average championship stats as discussed above and his track record of achieving nothing in the championship with 4 clubs in 14 years.

And as you like to talk a lot about the 3 windows and transfers, even given LJ's signings, ironically we have in recent games being using up to 6 or 7 players from our promotion team, and they have been achieving results better than anything under SC in this league. That is not me saying LJ is better, just that he has got them performing better in this league than SC, as back up by results. 

For me, all these factors combined cannot be mitigated solely by the summer window rumours of 2015, even if your version of events is actually true.

SC never showed, nor has ever shown in the past that he was capable of managing our club in this division or above, in the style that SL has set out he wants the club to be run in.

 

[Fishponds_Red]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

I find it amusing that my views offend you so much that you have taken to name calling and childish digs rather than debating the points.

You should gang up with @Tireeand @Hampshire Red, they also like to pick off posters who are critical of "three windows"and critical of the man who appointed him.

 

 

 

I was wrong to insult you personally rather than one of your posts, and for that I apologise.  Shouldn't open this site after a Sunday Funday!  

I will always be greatful to SC for one of the best seasons of my lifetime, but IMO your view of him is very binkered, he went after completely unrealistic transfer targets and he was taking us straight back to L1.

[NickJ]

12 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

We could discuss the summer of 2015 again, but we both know we'd quickly go round in circles. 

As for 'what might have been' - well of course, anything can happen. Leicester could win the premier league. 

The fact remains your argument for SC appears to hinge on this 'what might have been' aspect. On hearsay, whispers, gut feelings. Emotion. Not facts.

You say you're opinion of LJ (joke appointment, worst City manager etc) is based on logic, analysis and fact. Not emotion. ( Not that you've never forgiven him for actions as a player ). Well apply the same logic to SC, because in my opinion you're coming across as whimsical - "the sense of fair play" I think you said. 

• When SC was sacked we were adrift in the relegation zone, something we have never been under LJ.
• SC coupled this poor run - 4 wins in 26 games - with irrational interviews, refusal to play youth players or fill the bench.
• Rigidly stuck by the failing 3-5-2. Whichever you spin it, people think we underachieved this year, that team was under achieving under SC.
• Then we can add his overall average championship stats as discussed above and his track record of achieving nothing in the championship with 4 clubs in 14 years.

And as you like to talk a lot about the 3 windows and transfers, even given LJ's signings, ironically we have in recent games being using up to 6 or 7 players from our promotion team, and they have been achieving results better than anything under SC in this league. That is not me saying LJ is better, just that he has got them performing better in this league than SC, as back up by results. 

For me, all these factors combined cannot be mitigated solely by the summer window rumours of 2015, even if your version of events is actually true.

SC never showed, nor has ever shown in the past that he was capable of managing our club in this division or above, in the style that SL has set out he wants the club to be run in.

 

Ha, again some fair points.

But the bottom line is the supposedly "highly regarded" Lee Johnson bought 19 players for a lot of money and went into the penultimate game not being sure of staying up. Indeed, had Brighton needed the win, it is not difficult to have seen another 5-0 and all of a sudden we would have been staring at League One.

Aside from what I see as the injustice to SC, I literally laughed in disbelief at LJ's appointment and 18 months on don't see it getting any less amusing.

 

6 minutes ago, Fishponds_Red said:

I was wrong to insult you personally rather than one of your posts, and for that I apologise.  Shouldn't open this site after a Sunday Funday!  

I will always be greatful to SC for one of the best seasons of my lifetime, but IMO your view of him is very binkered, I'm not a believer of conspiracy theoris and he was taking us straight back to L1.

Fair enough.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

I guess I haven't forgiven LJ for not shaking SC's hand, live on telly… 

[Up The City!]

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 it shows a willingness and determination to learn, adapt and improve.

Anyway, you're simply wrong when you said SC couldn't cut it at Championship level.

Your opinion against the facts of his CV?

Only one wInner there I'm afraid, and it's not you.

 

A willingness to learn, adapt and improve?

Have you forgotten about his stubbornness to move away from the 3atb system? 

The only winner in this is BCFC, we saw Cotts wasn't sending us down so replaced him with someone who has secured our Championship status for two consecutive years.

[Sixtyseconds]

2 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

A willingness to learn, adapt and improve?

Have you forgotten about his stubbornness to move away from the 3atb system? 

 

But Mr Cotterill did adapt didn't he?

City and Cheltnumb both were promoted.

But neither played the same sketch.

As in very different.

Not the same .. Your non adapter ... Err was an adapter.

Now you as somebody who knows football deeply, unlike the rest of us who cant do twenty five keepie uppies imagine if Mr Cotts was allowed to go into the transfer window and get some in to freshen up his group.

Close your eyes, stroke those crystal balls and see into that alternative ... Reckon he would do something different? Aye says I.

Now stroke some more? Reckon with another 17/18/19 Mr Cotts would have equalled Lee Johnson's record breaker? Nay ..

[shelts]

On 07/05/2017 at 20:31, Fordy62 said:

Agree transfers for quality players who've since gained promotion to the Prem?

Was all pie in the Sky . Way above our pay grade . Nice to dream 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

24 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

But Mr Cotterill did adapt didn't he?

City and Cheltnumb both were promoted.

But neither played the same sketch.

As in very different.

Not the same .. Your non adapter ... Err was an adapter.

Now you as somebody who knows football deeply, unlike the rest of us who cant do twenty five keepie uppies imagine if Mr Cotts was allowed to go into the transfer window and get some in to freshen up his group.

Close your eyes, stroke those crystal balls and see into that alternative ... Reckon he would do something different? Aye says I.

Now stroke some more? Reckon with another 17/18/19 Mr Cotts would have equalled Lee Johnson's record breaker? Nay ..

Your post is pure conjecture, what makes you think that he would've achieved more with the same resources? In fact putting in bids for Gray, Gayle and Maguire supports he had the resources at his disposal. Do you think they would be cheap? but they were unobtainable due to stature.

Plus what makes you think he would've been a success in this league anyway? 29% win record at this level with any club he managed, not really much evidence to say that he would 

[Up The City!]

2 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

But Mr Cotterill did adapt didn't he?

City and Cheltnumb both were promoted.

But neither played the same sketch.

As in very different.

Not the same .. Your non adapter ... Err was an adapter.

Now you as somebody who knows football deeply, unlike the rest of us who cant do twenty five keepie uppies imagine if Mr Cotts was allowed to go into the transfer window and get some in to freshen up his group.

Close your eyes, stroke those crystal balls and see into that alternative ... Reckon he would do something different? Aye says I.

Now stroke some more? Reckon with another 17/18/19 Mr Cotts would have equalled Lee Johnson's record breaker? Nay ..

See @Emperor Palpatine reply!

[bcfctim]

Love Cotts, and it was great to be able to give him a proper send off. Don't recall LJ ever swearing at his own fans though. Everything's so black and white.

[Sixtyseconds]

5 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Your post is pure conjecture, what makes you think that he would've achieved more with the same resources? In fact putting in bids for Gray, Gayle and Maguire supports he had the resources at his disposal. Do you think they would be cheap? but they were unobtainable due to stature.

Plus what makes you think he would've been a success in this league anyway? 29% win record at this level with any club he managed, not really much evidence to say that he would 

No conjecture.

Mr Cotts really does play different formations.

A lot is made of this he had % of a % win ratio yada yada but the big data is a winning a league, ninety nine points and not getting the same backing as Lee Johnson did for being crap.

I will ask me a question.

What makes me think Lee Johnson would be a better option? Let me consider his CV. Didn't take long although his powerpoint has enough bomb alleys and individual brilliance zones in it to make me think he fooled the salemen by being one ... That six second frenzy sounds wrong.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

22 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

No conjecture.

Mr Cotts really does play different formations.

A lot is made of this he had % of a % win ratio yada yada but the big data is a winning a league, ninety nine points and not getting the same backing as Lee Johnson did for being crap.

I will ask me a question.

What makes me think Lee Johnson would be a better option? Let me consider his CV. Didn't take long although his powerpoint has enough bomb alleys and individual brilliance zones in it to make me think he fooled the salemen by being one ... That six second frenzy sounds wrong.

Yes the big data is winning 4 in 26 in this level which are at now and have been for 2 seasons.

I take it you do not bother to read then? He got the backing, he went for targets which wouldn't come here. Gray opted for Burnley and Maguire stayed at Hull, due to his manager wanting him to stay (Hull Daily Mail for the source)

Johnson had a decent record at Barnsley, even with the consecutive defeats, he also took them to a JPT final and had them around the playoffs. He also helped Oldham, a club who were pretty much cash strapped and relegation fodder in L1 to 15th.. not bad for a rookie manager. He's done fairly well here despite the poor run and lets be honest he kept the club up comfortably after SC made a complete cock up of it... He maybe binned off next season but thats the life of the manager for you. Personally I hope he succeeds as if he does, City does just like I've wanted every manager to

Of course his CV his fairly short... he's been a manager for 4 years, Cotterill has been managing for 17 years in the FL and has achieved 3 trophies, L2 with Notts County and L1 and JPT double with us... pretty much minor in the wider scheme of things. What has he achieved in this division? Do tell me. Seems to be a huge witch hunt regarding LJs supposedly 'crap' win % but Cotterill... 34% with Burnley, 23% with Stoke, 29% with Pompey, 32% with Forest and 15% with us. Hardly an awe inspiring record now is it

He's better working under 'Arry

[Sixtyseconds]

12 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Yes the big data is winning 4 in 26 in this level which are at now and have been for 2 seasons.

I take it you do not bother to read then? He got the backing, he went for targets which wouldn't come here. Gray opted for Burnley and Maguire stayed at Hull, due to his manager wanting him to stay (Hull Daily Mail for the source)

Johnson had a decent record at Barnsley, even with the consecutive defeats, he also took them to a JPT final and had them around the playoffs. He also helped Oldham, a club who were pretty much cash strapped and relegation fodder in L1 to 15th.. not bad for a rookie manager. He's done fairly well here despite the poor run and lets be honest he kept the club up comfortably after SC made a complete cock up of it... He maybe binned off next season but thats the life of the manager for you. Personally I hope he succeeds as if he does, City does just like I've wanted every manager to

Of course his CV his fairly short... he's been a manager for 4 years, Cotterill has been managing for 17 years in the FL and has achieved 3 trophies, L2 with Notts County and L1 and JPT double with us... pretty much minor in the wider scheme of things. What has he achieved in this division? Do tell me. Seems to be a huge witch hunt regarding LJs supposedly 'crap' win % but Cotterill... 34% with Burnley, 23% with Stoke, 29% with Pompey, 32% with Forest and 15% with us. Hardly an awe inspiring record now is it

He's better working under 'Arry

Lordy the % key takes another hammering.

It is like this.

Bristol City got a couple of points more than last season at six seven million per point.

With a bit more than Glynn Riley up top.

You may think that's worth one of Lee Johnsons six second frenzies ... I don't.

 

 

[glynriley]

2 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Lordy the % key takes another hammering.

It is like this.

Bristol City got a couple of points more than last season at six seven million per point.

With a bit more than Glynn Riley up top.

You may think that's worth one of Lee Johnsons six second frenzies ... I don't.

 

 

Oiii !!!