City's young players

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Son of a friend of mine has just been picked up by Southampton aged 8, while training in Bath...

I know of a 15 year old that had just been invited to train with Southampton for 6 weeks, but I do know that city have tried on numerous occasions to get him. He was advised against signing for city because of the "bad reputation" it has or had. Again he was playing for Bath & Wilts.

[Fiale]

1 hour ago, robinreliant said:

It's true that they have been up there for a long period of time bar a short period and that is maybe why young kids and their parents are lured towards them rather than us.

We have been saying that the success of our academy  is the way forward but what you say is true and that's why I don't think it's going to change any time soon sadly. We are doing things a different way now and scouting abroad more and more but other clubs are doing exactly that as well. I do admire Southampton and the way they have brought in successful managers time after time. Also buying raw talent and selling them on for big fees has been their forte as well. Maybe we are learning that aspect of their success.

 

 

This is why we need to show youngsters there is a clear path to first team football here, as opposed to being sold on or passed around just as a young financial asset. If we can sort out the Academy (and we really do need a strong director and coaching staff, our reputation is not great at the moment and there has to be a reason for that). If we can get that sorted then over time there is no reason we could not edge Southampton out over time -thing is do we really want to, we seem to blow hot and cold all the time on this as a club, and that lack of stability puts people off.

We also have Rovers, Swindon, Cheltenham, Yeovil, Exeter, and Newport all pretty close that could see our young players still in contact with us and the loan team (I know some will be OH no no way should we loan to some of these clubs... but it could be beneficial to all of us if we can get our kids out in large numbers to these teams - once we start producing the quality).

Sadly, I really don;t know if the commitment is there from the club -

[redysteadygo1]

Julian Dicks

[alexukhc]

Darren Peacock

[Fatalist]

Robin Cousins

[Fiale]

Goram and Vincent were pretty big for their time !

[shelts]

Renee and Renata 

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, Fiale said:

 

This is why we need to show youngsters there is a clear path to first team football here, as opposed to being sold on or passed around just as a young financial asset. If we can sort out the Academy (and we really do need a strong director and coaching staff, our reputation is not great at the moment and there has to be a reason for that). If we can get that sorted then over time there is no reason we could not edge Southampton out over time -thing is do we really want to, we seem to blow hot and cold all the time on this as a club, and that lack of stability puts people off.

We also have Rovers, Swindon, Cheltenham, Yeovil, Exeter, and Newport all pretty close that could see our young players still in contact with us and the loan team (I know some will be OH no no way should we loan to some of these clubs... but it could be beneficial to all of us if we can get our kids out in large numbers to these teams - once we start producing the quality).

Sadly, I really don;t know if the commitment is there from the club -

Again as I've said in another thread, if we keep having to fight relegation every season, we cannot give our Academy boys a pathway to the first team. So is a stable first team the chicken or the egg in the search for an Academy that produces a first team player or two every season and not once a decade? 

[Lanterne Rouge]

24 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Again as I've said in another thread, if we keep having to fight relegation every season, we cannot give our Academy boys a pathway to the first team. So is a stable first team the chicken or the egg in the search for an Academy that produces a first team player or two every season and not once a decade? 

So true mate! If only for once we could be safe with four or five games to go and able to give some of the lads a run out.

[Davefevs]

12 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

My son plays for Bath City under-8s and met Zak Vyner and Max O'Leary up at the Odd Down training ground last night.  What thoroughly nice lads they are, a real credit to the club.  If there are more like them - articulate, intelligent, passionate about the game and the club - then I feel optimistic about the future of Bristol City.  How many of us would far rather see us doing the best we can with some local lads in the squad than buying success with a squad packed full of players with no commitment to the club or the area?

 

I had a good chat with Max at CHSW Xmas Party.  He is very mature, not phased at all dealing with ill-kids, nor star-struck parents ().  He spoke very well and really saw his early time at Bath as a really good development phase.  As the season progressed it seemed he (and McCoulsky) made the most of playing decent level men's football.  He has also started to fill out and looks a good build for a keeper at this age.  I think I saw on Twitter that he went to Millfield Prep School, so I don't know if that helped his confidence in speaking to us?  Would be good to see him get league experience next.  Wasn't phased by WBA was he?

[Lanterne Rouge]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I had a good chat with Max at CHSW Xmas Party.  He is very mature, not phased at all dealing with ill-kids, nor star-struck parents ().  He spoke very well and really saw his early time at Bath as a really good development phase.  As the season progressed it seemed he (and McCoulsky) made the most of playing decent level men's football.  He has also started to fill out and looks a good build for a keeper at this age.  I think I saw on Twitter that he went to Millfield Prep School, so I don't know if that helped his confidence in speaking to us?  Would be good to see him get league experience next.  Wasn't phased by WBA was he?

He didn`t get much time to build up any nerves! Which could possibly have been the best way for things to happen - no time to worry about it, just get out there.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

He didn`t get much time to build up any nerves! Which could possibly have been the best way for things to happen - no time to worry about it, just get out there.

Yes, agree re 1st game, but he had a replay to prepare too also.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Yes, agree re 1st game, but he had a replay to prepare too also.

Must have been a lot easier for that though, imagine if he`d let one through his legs in the first game rather than playing well. As you say though, he does come across as a confident lad.

[Sir Colby-Tit]

8 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I love the optimism of filling the team with local talent but to paraphrase another quote 'You don't win anything with BRISTOLIAN'S'. Since the heady days of the mid-70s (and I am old enough to have seen it), can we name 10 Bristolian's (i.e. from Bristol, not Bath, Frome etc) that could be said to have made it to the top of their sport. I'll kick it off with Gary Mabbutt, Lee Haskins and Judd Trump (although Whitchurch is mighty close to not being Bristol). How about the other 7?

Ross "The Rooster" Hale

Danny Boy Collins 

Darren Peacock

Julian Dicks 

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

Ross "The Rooster" Hale

Danny Boy Collins 

Darren Peacock

Julian Dicks 

Chris Wood?

[BCFC Rich]

On 5/10/2017 at 13:23, Red Right Hand said:

So true mate! If only for once we could be safe with four or five games to go and able to give some of the lads a run out.

Interestingly,it seems we might have wanted to play more youngsters against Birmingham. Source

Sample quote ""And it's not right. Managers should be allowed to pick who they want. They [EFL] don't scrutinise if young lads are making their debuts at Christmas or at the start of the season. These lads have got to make their debuts at some point. The end of the season is an ideal time. The manager should be allowed to decide that not somebody else."

 

Also article about some old Academy players Here.

[alexukhc]

5 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

Also article about some old Academy players Here.

3 players, wow

[BCFC Rich]

Just now, alexukhc said:

3 players, wow

Should of qualified that it was a Bristol Post article! That way I would of lowered expectations! 

[Bar BS3]

On 10/05/2017 at 16:24, robinreliant said:

Friend of mine is a very big gas fan. (Well sort of friend). His Grandson has just signed for us. He's not happy at all I can tell you.

Not happy that his granddad is a gashead..? Who can blame him? How embarrassing! 

[samo II]

For a couple of recent examples of why we will be unable to build a team from the best possible young players available, look no further than Jacob Maddox and Herbie Kane - both absorbed into the vast youth set-ups of Chelsea and Liverpool respectively at just 14; both seen as future internationals at the time, but now will be 18/19 and to my knowledge neither has played first team football anywhere.

These kids are called the next Gerrards or Lampards, but players like that debuted young (we're talking 18) and got games at that age; how few do we see like Tammy who actually get games at sub-20?  Too few in my eyes; give them football and see if they can do it - pointless otherwise.

That for me is where City need to be bold and smart; we might not be category one and have the 'glamour' of being premier league, but if we commit to actually giving youth players pitch time in 'live-fire' games, the hope will be that the likes of the next Kane or Maddox (or even any potential West Country Tammy) will decide to commit to us at a young age, knowing they will actually get a chance at playing first team, not just be held on to as assists until finally getting shuttled off on loan in their early 20s before being released to fend for themselves.

I've said it before and stand by it; I would accept us having to scrap each season if we were at least doing so in part due to being committed to blooding and testing our own youngsters.

For all this talk of the much vaunted 'pathway', I want us to put our money where our mouth is and actually try and get some of our 17/18/19 year olds forming part of the match day squads and truly developing.  Fulham have only had cat one since 2012, and since yet have a solid record of drawing on their youth players to bolster their squads - Dembele and that mega-young lad this year are decent examples.

Just think we talk a lot about giving the kids a chance, but I'd like us commit to actually doing it week in week out; that would be a 'pillar' or philosophy or whatever I could get behind.

[alexukhc]

7 minutes ago, samo II said:

For a couple of recent examples of why we will be unable to build a team from the best possible young players available, look no further than Jacob Maddox and Herbie Kane - both absorbed into the vast youth set-ups of Chelsea and Liverpool respectively at just 14; both seen as future internationals at the time, but now will be 18/19 and to my knowledge neither has played first team football anywhere.

These kids are called the next Gerrards or Lampards, but players like that debuted young (we're talking 18) and got games at that age; how few do we see like Tammy who actually get games at sub-20?  Too few in my eyes; give them football and see if they can do it - pointless otherwise.

That for me is where City need to be bold and smart; we might not be category one and have the 'glamour' of being premier league, but if we commit to actually giving youth players pitch time in 'live-fire' games, the hope will be that the likes of the next Kane or Maddox (or even any potential West Country Tammy) will decide to commit to us at a young age, knowing they will actually get a chance at playing first team, not just be held on to as assists until finally getting shuttled off on loan in their early 20s before being released to fend for themselves.

I've said it before and stand by it; I would accept us having to scrap each season if we were at least doing so in part due to being committed to blooding and testing our own youngsters.

For all this talk of the much vaunted 'pathway', I want us to put our money where our mouth is and actually try and get some of our 17/18/19 year olds forming part of the match day squads and truly developing.  Fulham have only had cat one since 2012, and since yet have a solid record of drawing on their youth players to bolster their squads - Dembele and that mega-young lad this year are decent examples.

Just think we talk a lot about giving the kids a chance, but I'd like us commit to actually doing it week in week out; that would be a 'pillar' or philosophy or whatever I could get behind.

Cracking post

[reddoh]

6 minutes ago, samo II said:

For a couple of recent examples of why we will be unable to build a team from the best possible young players available, look no further than Jacob Maddox and Herbie Kane - both absorbed into the vast youth set-ups of Chelsea and Liverpool respectively at just 14; both seen as future internationals at the time, but now will be 18/19 and to my knowledge neither has played first team football anywhere.

These kids are called the next Gerrards or Lampards, but players like that debuted young (we're talking 18) and got games at that age; how few do we see like Tammy who actually get games at sub-20?  Too few in my eyes; give them football and see if they can do it - pointless otherwise.

That for me is where City need to be bold and smart; we might not be category one and have the 'glamour' of being premier league, but if we commit to actually giving youth players pitch time in 'live-fire' games, the hope will be that the likes of the next Kane or Maddox (or even any potential West Country Tammy) will decide to commit to us at a young age, knowing they will actually get a chance at playing first team, not just be held on to as assists until finally getting shuttled off on loan in their early 20s before being released to fend for themselves.

I've said it before and stand by it; I would accept us having to scrap each season if we were at least doing so in part due to being committed to blooding and testing our own youngsters.

For all this talk of the much vaunted 'pathway', I want us to put our money where our mouth is and actually try and get some of our 17/18/19 year olds forming part of the match day squads and truly developing.  Fulham have only had cat one since 2012, and since yet have a solid record of drawing on their youth players to bolster their squads - Dembele and that mega-young lad this year are decent examples.

Just think we talk a lot about giving the kids a chance, but I'd like us commit to actually doing it week in week out; that would be a 'pillar' or philosophy or whatever I could get behind.

Crew but a Little bit higher.

[chinapig]

3 hours ago, samo II said:

For a couple of recent examples of why we will be unable to build a team from the best possible young players available, look no further than Jacob Maddox and Herbie Kane - both absorbed into the vast youth set-ups of Chelsea and Liverpool respectively at just 14; both seen as future internationals at the time, but now will be 18/19 and to my knowledge neither has played first team football anywhere.

These kids are called the next Gerrards or Lampards, but players like that debuted young (we're talking 18) and got games at that age; how few do we see like Tammy who actually get games at sub-20?  Too few in my eyes; give them football and see if they can do it - pointless otherwise.

That for me is where City need to be bold and smart; we might not be category one and have the 'glamour' of being premier league, but if we commit to actually giving youth players pitch time in 'live-fire' games, the hope will be that the likes of the next Kane or Maddox (or even any potential West Country Tammy) will decide to commit to us at a young age, knowing they will actually get a chance at playing first team, not just be held on to as assists until finally getting shuttled off on loan in their early 20s before being released to fend for themselves.

I've said it before and stand by it; I would accept us having to scrap each season if we were at least doing so in part due to being committed to blooding and testing our own youngsters.

For all this talk of the much vaunted 'pathway', I want us to put our money where our mouth is and actually try and get some of our 17/18/19 year olds forming part of the match day squads and truly developing.  Fulham have only had cat one since 2012, and since yet have a solid record of drawing on their youth players to bolster their squads - Dembele and that mega-young lad this year are decent examples.

Just think we talk a lot about giving the kids a chance, but I'd like us commit to actually doing it week in week out; that would be a 'pillar' or philosophy or whatever I could get behind.

I wonder how much is down to big clubs 'incentivising' parents to get their kids to sign for them? The kudos of saying their son plays for, say, Chelsea* plus a financial bonus, even if in kind, must be tempting.

*though they will never make the first team of course.

[Shtanley]

@samo II I think once were an established championship side in the next year or two we'll start seeing that kind of mentality implemented. 

[Major Isewater]

On 10/05/2017 at 21:48, shelts said:

Renee and Renata 

Bill and Ben .

[Major Isewater]

Perhaps controversial and unmanageable but couldn't our academy be also an academy for other local clubs like Yeovil , Cheltenham, The Gas ? 

If we include rather than exclude surely it would give more power to the academy ?

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

@samo II I think once were an established championship side in the next year or two we'll start seeing that kind of mentality implemented. 

Let's hope then  Shtanley these young players are up to it then , as the Championship is extremely unforgiving !!

People like Sessignon breaking through are extremely rare and only because IMHO he's an exceptional talent

Even with Tammys background and pedigree most of us have been pleasantly shocked how he managed to deliver at 18/19

I don't have a good knowledge of our U23s and below but I don't get the impression many are 'knocking on the door'

Lloyd Kelly and Vyner the closest it would seem to breaking in

Id be genuinely interested in the views of those who have seen plenty of U23s who they think might break through n the next two years

Personally , loaning our youngsters out to L2 and where possible L1 , as we've started doing , is IMHO , the sensible way to go - If you are going to throw them straight into the Championship they need to be bloody good !!!

[bpexile]

10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Bill and Ben .

Laurel & Hardy 

[Shtanley]

52 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Let's hope then  Shtanley these young players are up to it then , as the Championship is extremely unforgiving !!

People like Sessignon breaking through are extremely rare and only because IMHO he's an exceptional talent

Even with Tammys background and pedigree most of us have been pleasantly shocked how he managed to deliver at 18/19

I don't have a good knowledge of our U23s and below but I don't get the impression many are 'knocking on the door'

Lloyd Kelly and Vyner the closest it would seem to breaking in

Id be genuinely interested in the views of those who have seen plenty of U23s who they think might break through n the next two years

Personally , loaning our youngsters out to L2 and where possible L1 , as we've started doing , is IMHO , the sensible way to go - If you are going to throw them straight into the Championship they need to be bloody good !!!

I think Kelly and Dowling personally. I like Vyner but I'm not sure if he's gonna be a CB or a right back. 

[samo II]

12 hours ago, reddoh said:

Crew but a Little bit higher.

I'd not have too much of an issue with that, though hopefully more like Southampton, who used their graduates to move forwards, not stay still. 

9 hours ago, chinapig said:

I wonder how much is down to big clubs 'incentivising' parents to get their kids to sign for them? The kudos of saying their son plays for, say, Chelsea* plus a financial bonus, even if in kind, must be tempting.

*though they will never make the first team of course.

I'd wager a fair amount of it is.  Only concession I'd would make is that if your 14 year old is offered the chance to train at the top-tier facilities of a Premier League side compared to those of your local, then it might make sense to do that, knowing that in 3 years managers will likely have changed and approaches to bringing through youth may very well have changed, so you'd rather your kid gets the best facilities during development before they move on.

I think of Scott Sinclair a lot when thinking of what is best for young, west country players; debuted at 15 for Rovers in 04/05, then snapped up by Chelsea.  In the 12 and a half years since, he's only played 25 or more games in FIVE seasons; 07/08 (and that was less than 30 matches spread between four clubs), 10/11, 11/12 (both Swansea), 15/16 (Villa; relegated) and 16/17 (Celtic).  

Yes; he's had injuries, though only one that saw him miss most of a season, but overall he's made just 300 career appearances in 12 and a half years.  For context; Dele Alli also debuted very young (just 16), has nearly 200 career appearances (most of these in League One), is only just 21, and I would argue that he has been able to realise his talent via first team football in a way Sinclair wasn't.

My point being that although he debuted at Rovers very young, Sinclair then took three years to play over 25 games (just) in one season, and another year again until he got a full season under his belt.  I'm of an opinion Sinclair had the potential ('had' being an important word here) to be a true star of the game,  but his 'absorption' into one of the huge academies, and subsequent lack of 'real' football for years stunted his development to such a stage where he now plays in a league well below what should be his standard (witness his irresistible form for Swansea in 11/12), albeit admittedly for the stand-out best team there.  

Sinclair never even got an England cap, despite years spent playing in the under age groups; another sign for me these 'preparatory' levels of international are no substitute for first team club games.

And while I'd not wish getting stuck at Rovers on any kid, I wonder if he'd been blooded more at that young age, playing football alongside men with points and results at stake, would he perhaps not have vanished for years at a time, and ended up as he did?  Too much cotton wool?

1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

@samo II I think once were an established championship side in the next year or two we'll start seeing that kind of mentality implemented. 

I think the idea of being established in this league is a myth, tbh (not said to be confrontational tbf, but just my opinion).  Look at this season; three of the teams who finished around us last time are in the playoffs, and two of the relegated teams are midtable, while only one promoted team (arguable the one with better recent pedigree in Wigan) has gone back down - I think waiting to plateau and be 'stable' at this level breeds complacency and is naive; it will never truly happen.

And besides; then we end up with youth players who are 20/21 with only a handful of games under their belt, when they've been lorded since age 17/18 but never got to test themselves.  I look at Forest, who over the last few season have given the likes of Ben Osborn, Brereton, Burke and Matty Cash their shot in this league, and either uncovered decent first team squad players or gems they've sold for a fortune - they were far from a stable team, but they went for it anyway.

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Perhaps controversial and unmanageable but couldn't our academy be also an academy for other local clubs like Yeovil , Cheltenham, The Gas ? 

If we include rather than exclude surely it would give more power to the academy ?

I think we should be willing/aiming to push players out to those teams for games more - I am pleased by what Shawn McCoulsky has done this year, but he is now 21 next year, and has zero league football at any level under his belt; I look at Yeovil, Exeter etc and wonder if he wouldn't have been better placed trying to get games there  

Not knocking his development this season, but he's now at a point where I feel he probably needs to be given a shot at League One or even our level, as big a jump as that might be, because if he's not showing promise (not expecting the lad to be the finished article of course), then is he even worth developing?

Similar case with Feddie Hinds; is 18/19 now, so I just hope we either get him a loan as lose to this level as possible, or take the plunge and just throw him in - if he sinks, hardly a bad start for him; sure he'll go elsewhere to develop.  But if he shows promise, we've got a young player with promise gaining experience at a high-level.

I just think we need to be far bolder than we are now.

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Let's hope then  Shtanley these young players are up to it then , as the Championship is extremely unforgiving !!

People like Sessignon breaking through are extremely rare and only because IMHO he's an exceptional talent

Even with Tammys background and pedigree most of us have been pleasantly shocked how he managed to deliver at 18/19

I don't have a good knowledge of our U23s and below but I don't get the impression many are 'knocking on the door'

Lloyd Kelly and Vyner the closest it would seem to breaking in

Id be genuinely interested in the views of those who have seen plenty of U23s who they think might break through n the next two years

Personally , loaning our youngsters out to L2 and where possible L1 , as we've started doing , is IMHO , the sensible way to go - If you are going to throw them straight into the Championship they need to be bloody good !!!

I'd also be interested in how people with a closer view of the young players we have see them progressing; it would perhaps make my bullish position look silly if the players we have don't look capable.

My only concern is that if we are stockpiling young players 'just in case' one becomes the next Dele Alli or some such, I don't know how we are going to discover this unless they do what Dele Alli did, which is actually play games.  I'd contend that there are several teams at this level who do blood youngsters more out of necessity than desire, and they end up with the sort of half-decent squad players we end up paying for from other teams - Hegeler might only had cost us £300k and come with decent pedigree, but he's 29, and has played just 12 league games. 

Now, I don't doubt Heleger is pound-for-pund likely a better player than say George Dowling, but Dowling did well enough to play a couple of first team dead rubbers last year, cost us nothing, and has ten years on Hegeler - can we honestly say having him in and around the first team squad, making the sort of last min sub appearances Hegeler has in his recent games would have made much difference, or that Hegeler has really contributed enough to deny a youth player the chance to get experience?

I'm being a little extreme in my examples but I do feel these are the questions we should be asking, to see if we're just paying lip service to 'developing' young players, compared to actually doing it.  Personally, I hope we promote a handful of the best young players, give them more real chances next season, even if that involves risk, and stick to that to see if they can cut it - if LJ and the coaching team were to do that, I'd respect it and them for taking that chance.