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Guardian article today on SL and Johnson


Nongazeuse

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Inconveniently for those who constantly point to our spending as a reason why we have massively underachieved, transfermkt currently has our squad valued at 17th in the league. 17th - ring any bells?!

The values given to individual players are dubious to say the least, but if the same process has been used to value all players in the division then it's a level playing field and can still be considered a reasonable indicator.

Despite this I do actually think we have underachieved a bit this season - but it may offer some perspective to those who seem to struggle to find any.

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Surely the point of the article (which may have been instigated by the club not the journalist) is that everybody at the club from chairman though coach to fans agrees that a normal situation would be a sacking for the (undisputedly bad) run that happened mid term. The fact that those in a position to act on and carry out the agreed and internationally recognised procedure did not, should be seen as truly gutsy and strong in mind and those who stayed, in the face of hostile and sometime threatening behaviour, should be given respect for what they had to endure in the name of football. Sometime it harder doing what appears outwardly to be nothing and receiving untold grief, rather than taking the easier option and the club should be respected for it. It was a huge gamble that could so easily have gone pear shaped and the club would have been facing yet another crisis in a lower division with a fans back lash and merry-go-round starting from scratch again, but it didn't. We all move on to next season with a cleanish slate and the message that is stick with us, trust us, respect the longer term vision and lets see where it goes - you may be pleasantly surprised ...for once!

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35 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

Err, yes, we did lose a player?

 

No, never claimed otherwise.

 

I said when we brought in January reinforcements we picked up. What planet are you on?

 

26 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

I get what you mean but the fact is, LJ was backed in the summer and we had a decent squad with two amazing attacking options for this level. If we hadn't have sold Kodjia I'd be in complete agreement with those that say he had a 'war chest', spent loads for this level or however you want to describe it. But we lost Kodjia, along with the money we got for Agard, Williams, Ayling, Albert and Bolasie, LJ simply spent the money we'd recieved, we weren't big spenders. Did the club plan to sell Kodjia all along or were they tempted by the amount Villa offered? Debatable but the fact we were bidding £6.5M for Joe Mason on deadline day suggests we didn't plan to lose him as we weren't prepared to lose Kodjia in terms of the overall squad strength. It wasn't until January that we brought in attacking reinforcements and started to recover. Up until then LJ had been reliant on a very young (albeit very talented) Abraham to carry us going forward and a very committed but lacking the legs ageing striker in Wilbs. When we started struggling teams quickly worked out they could just mark Abraham as he was our only striker. When Djuric/Taylor came in, we started freeing up space for him and thus improved, as he wasn't our only option.

 

We started the season with two top-class Championship forwards and soon only had one. That hits the team hard. Look at the top clubs in the Premier League, full of very good squads, but when you lose a key player (in any position but particularly attack) they tend to struggle as it lessens their options and makes it easier for the opposition. I just think it's false to claim LJ had a war chest. He was fortunate that, unlike some clubs, we could reinvest the money we'd received for outgoing players, but ultimately our net spend was larger the summer before (and what a shambles that's infamously known for being) than it was this season.

 

Anyway, the big focus is this summer now. We need to replace Tammy/Kodjia so it will be interesting to see what happens.

We sold a player. Correct.

Using the word "lost" instead of "sold" implies a degree of helplessness, as though we have no say in what happens. That we are at the mercy of fate or chance. But we are not, we have choices to make and options open to us, in recruitment, in buying and selling. Difficult choices, sure, but that is the job LJ and MA are paid to do. What they are here to manage. Steve Lansdown got them in because he believed they could "manage" this sort of thing.

And as we know, as SL told us on 2 September, Lee and Mark recommended to Steve that we sell Kodjia, and Steve went along with it.

Steve Cotterill was sacked, largely, because our recruitment was a mess; I think Lee Johnson (and MA) were brought in to improve this, and that they were aware of what the recruitment policy entailed. 

I don't expect it was a surprise to LJ that his 20 goal striker would be of interest to other clubs. Not to someone who said:

"We are always prepared for anything. If you are not, then you are not doing your job properly. There always has to be a recruitment strategy in place." LJ, August 2016, Bristol Post.

If we were short up front, between selling Kodjia, and bringing in Djuric and Taylor, that is the responsibility of Lee Johnson and Mark Ashton. Because, as you say, LJ was backed in the summer, and under no pressure from the board or SL to sell (going by SL's interview with Adam Baker in September). 

This might appear harsh on LJ, but we need someone who gets these decisions more right than wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

To provide some perspective for those with strangely high expectations.

Finishing 17th is middle ground, absolutely. I don't see how you can dispute it. As I pointed out,

Not meaning to quote the two paragraphs out of context but very few people had or have "strangely high expectations" I believe middle ground would have satisfied 95% of fans.

Problem with your argument is that there are24 teams in the division not 34 so 17th and 3 points off the drop is only the middle of a relegation struggle.

12th on the other hand and nearly everyone would be content.

I respect your right to accept mediocrity of course.

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15 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

 

We sold a player. Correct.

Using the word "lost" instead of "sold" implies a degree of helplessness, as though we have no say in what happens.

 

Stopped reading your post immediately after I read as far as that as you've looked into it far more than needed. Not what I was implying at all. It's you that's read it that way. If you lose a key player to another team, you've lost his presence within the squad and you feel that loss. That's all I stated.

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1 minute ago, JHAGa said:

 

Stopped reading your post immediately after I read as far as that as you've looked into it far more than needed. Not what I was implying at all. It's you that's read it that way. If you lose a key player to another team, you've lost his presence within the squad and you feel that loss. That's all I stated.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread are we talking Kodjia? If so I wonder how LJ would have used Tammy regularly as he seemed to fancy one up top for much of the season.

I don't reckon we missed Kodjia that much Tammy stepped in.

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1 minute ago, Loon plage said:

Sorry haven't read the whole thread are we talking Kodjia? If so I wonder how LJ would have used Tammy regularly as he seemed to fancy one up top for much of the season.

I don't reckon we missed Kodjia that much Tammy stepped in.

 

When we started the season, it was kind of a 4-2-3-1 with Kodjia on the right but also coming central to play alongside Tammy. Similar to what Villa have done with Kodjia.

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Not sure how long the bad run lasted but I was at Cardiff on that Friday night (whenever that was) and it seemed to last until the Fulham game ( whenever that was) I don't know how you statisticians will manipulate that, if I had my way Johnson would of been sacked but he wasn't, he will be our manager on the first day of the season and he will have my support 100%

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3 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

You are claiming performances are the worst you are likely to see, I've seen perfomances 10x worse... 5-0 away at Blackpool, 4-0 at home to Leicester, 4-1 at home to Fulham, 7-1 away at Swansea, 6-0 at home to Cardiff are examples but the list is endless

Absolutely spot on. We got hammered once and didn't show up on a few occasions. But the stats show even during the horrendous run we were losing by the odd goal so were generally still competitive and in with a chance of picking up points. 

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12 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

When we started the season, it was kind of a 4-2-3-1 with Kodjia on the right but also coming central to play alongside Tammy. Similar to what Villa have done with Kodjia.

Understood. I think it might have been a case of fitting Tammy in. I think Kodjia didn't like it after his "heroics" 15/16 so think he accepted it to get a move to Villa.

The money we got ought to have brought in a half tidy second striker though imo

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10 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Understood. I think it might have been a case of fitting Tammy in. I think Kodjia didn't like it after his "heroics" 15/16 so think he accepted it to get a move to Villa.

The money we got ought to have brought in a half tidy second striker though imo

 

I agree. I don't begrudge selling Kodjia, it was the timing of it. With two days of the window left and no replacement lined up.

 

It wasn't until January when we brought in Djuric and Taylor that we had some reinforcements. Big summer ahead now with Tammy gone.

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40 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

Stopped reading your post immediately after I read as far as that as you've looked into it far more than needed. Not what I was implying at all. It's you that's read it that way. If you lose a key player to another team, you've lost his presence within the squad and you feel that loss. That's all I stated.

Yes, it's a loss, but this happens all the time in football. A regular occurence. Players come and go. It happens to other clubs too. That is Lee's job, to sell and buy, and to make sure that "losing" our best players does not hurt the first X1. When interviewed for the job, this sort of thing is discussed, and I think we can assume LJ will have talked about how he will manage this part of the job, not talked about how difficult it is and how "losing" players might lead to poor form.

How many of their best players have Barnsley sold this season? Rather more than us. It can be done. It doesn't explain being 3 points above the dotted line as the January window opened (ie, just about back where we were 12 months before). 

Lee was brought here to manage exactly these situations, along with MA, and as you say, we were short of options until Djuric and Taylor arrived. 

We "lost" Kodj but received ample funds in return, enough to buy in a replacement. Like other clubs, that are successful, do.

That we didn't, and bought two forwards in January, suggests Lee misjudged that part of the summer window. 

 

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18 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

I agree. I don't begrudge selling Kodjia, it was the timing of it. With two days of the window left and no replacement lined up.

 

It wasn't until January when we brought in Djuric and Taylor that we had some reinforcements. Big summer ahead now with Tammy gone.

Yep. Huge gamble to allow a player to get his way.

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20 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

I agree. I don't begrudge selling Kodjia, it was the timing of it. With two days of the window left and no replacement lined up.

 

It wasn't until January when we brought in Djuric and Taylor that we had some reinforcements. Big summer ahead now with Tammy gone.

"We are always prepared for anything. If you are not, then you are not doing your job properly. There always has to be a recruitment strategy in place." Lee Johnson, August 2016.

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20 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

I agree. I don't begrudge selling Kodjia, it was the timing of it. With two days of the window left and no replacement lined up.

 

It wasn't until January when we brought in Djuric and Taylor that we had some reinforcements. Big summer ahead now with Tammy gone.

Even then I really believe that Djuric, Wright and Hegeler were meant to be `third window` signings and were brought forward due to the state we were in. Taylor was just too good an opportunity to turn down - particularly if we did end up back in league 1.

 

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3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Even then I really believe that Djuric, Wright and Hegeler were meant to be `third window` signings and were brought forward due to the state we were in. Taylor was just too good an opportunity to turn down - particularly if we did end up back in league 1.

 

That's exactly what LJ said himself - that they had brought forward the third window signings

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10 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

How many of their best players have Barnsley sold this season? Rather more than us. It can be done. It doesn't explain being 3 points above the dotted line as the January window opened (ie, just about back where we were 12 months before). 

 

 

 

Barnsley collapsed since they sold Hourihane to Villa in January. They also sold Winnall to Sheff Wed so admittedly it was two players but it goes to show that a team can be good but still badly affected by the loss of key players.

 

I agree with the last part about either LJ and/or the board misjudging the situation. As I've stated, we were bidding for Joe Mason on deadline day which shows we weren't prepared to lose Kodjia in terms of squad depth and paid that price until January. If we had kept Kodjia I believe we would have finished far higher and our position would have reflected the money spent.

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Just now, JHAGa said:

 

Barnsley collapsed since they sold Hourihane to Villa in January. They also sold Winnall to Sheff Wed so admittedly it was two players but it goes to show that a team can be good but still badly affected by the loss of key players.

 

I agree with the last part about either LJ or the board misjudging the situation. As I've stated, we were bidding for Joe Mason on deadline day which shows we weren't prepared to lose Kodjia in terms of squad depth and paid that price until January. If we had kept Kodjia I believe we would have finished far higher and our position would have reflected the money spent.

They lost the defender Bree to Villa as well, basically had the spine ripped out of the side as their second half of the season form showed. Their lads who come on here are fearing a long hard season of struggle next time out.

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10 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Can't argue with any of that, one observation though.
SL was stitched up to an extent, AV would have been built along side us playing at AG and the move would have been seamless, no reduction a capacity. Everyone thought it was a go , the redevelopment was a back up that should never have been needed. A mate was working with one of the companies involved , knew architects involved and was adamant that it would go ahead until late on. No one saw the village green bollocks coming, so much so they changed the law. That put the build back and brought in a whole raft of problems of how to do a Stadium in stages.
You have to applaud SL for sticking with it and producing a damn fine ground.

I was told the opposite from the start by one of the biggest landowners in and around Bristol, who knows pretty much everything that goes on with any piece of land or building in and around town.

His exact words as we were looking at plans of the proposed stadium before they were in the public domain were "I can guarantee you it will never happen."

 

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4 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

There is no way of guaranteeing success on the pitch unfortunately, there are many more clubs that have thrown much more money than us over the last 5 years or so who are still waiting for their opportunity for success on the pitch. And for all that money they are still in the same division as us.

And many of these clubs will of had the infrastructure in place years ago, we are now just starting to get our behind the scenes in order, so we are playing catch-up in every facet of the club.

Part of the problem is that the vast majority of people want / expect success now rather than realising that success doesn't just happen overnight but the club is improving, slowly but surely. And with any luck, by the time we achieve success the club will be ready in every way (stadium, training facilities, offices, staffing & potential to maximise our potential income from every avenue).

Look how far we have come in 5 years, then look at how far some other clubs have come, we aren't doing that badly, honestly.

Absolutely, agree with most of what you say there. In the big scheme of things we are a bang average 2nd Division team

But....all that money pumped in, by a hugely successful businessman....I wonder if SL sometimes think he hasn't done a good job, on the pitch. Off it, kudos to the man, he has left a legacy that few of us could have imagined. But the team? Still a bang average 2nd Div team, not so sure

That said, it could all click and 17/18 could be our season. It's why we'll all be back for more next season

I absolutely adore the club, and I wouldn't have her any other way. Bit like Mrs Woodsy really

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What gets me at the moment from the recent pronouncements of both LJ and SL is that there seems to be an air of near smugness from them that we survived by the skin of our teeth. SL describes it as a 'season of progress', and seems to base that view on the facts that crowds are up and that we gained 2 more points than the season before. He talks about the 'noise' mid season, seemingly surprised that people were wanting change when at one stage we'd won 2 games out of 23.

He also talks about people wanting him to fail.... I just don't see that at all. All the people I know who follow City are reasonable human beings who desperately want the club to do well. When things get as dire as they were during that period, even the most reasonable amongst us have every right to question what the hell is going on. Now we've survived by 3 points, there is a large element of 'I told you so' coming out of the club which completely ignores the fact that we have all but stood still this season. 

The last 10 games have been a huge improvement, and from the position we were in it was a huge relief to us all to stay in the division. Johnson deserves credit for turning it around and keeping us up. But let's not try and claim that the season overall was a progressive one of success, because it clearly and palpably was not. 

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