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Guardian article today on SL and Johnson


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5 hours ago, bris red said:

It was the manner of the defeats though mate. To lose 8 games in a row is worrying, its even more worrying the fact that in Johnson's VERY short managerial career this isnt the first time he has had a horrendous run of defeats which really makes me and others question him going fowards regardless of where we finally finished. 

SL has his time to gloat and subtly give it the 'i told you so' vibe for now but personally i think we will struggle again next season with Johnson at the helm. He just isnt a good manager at this level.

Better than anyone else we have had at this level for the last quarter century, except his Dad.

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3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Better than anyone else we have had at this level for the last quarter century, except his Dad.

And Joe Jordan (First time around) before he buggered off to Hearts 

Think he would have taken us close at least

Pushing the time a bit as Joe was 26/27 yrs ago :blink:

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1 hour ago, Woodsy said:

 

But....all that money pumped in, by a hugely successful businessman....I wonder if SL sometimes think he hasn't done a good job, on the pitch. Off it, kudos to the man, he has left a legacy that few of us could have imagined. But the team? Still a bang average 2nd Div team, not so sure

I felt like this when we made the playoffs in 2008, I just felt that if we had maybe signed a couple of players for £2m or so during the January window (when we were looking to push on), it would have given us the boost & given the whole club some confidence & we would be ready for that final push. And that would have at least of lifted the quality of the squad, no matter what division we were in.

Instead we payed wages to people past their prime & it left us short of any real quality & that filtered down through the seasons.

If we had just speculated, there's no knowing where we could be now.

Would we of been ready for promotion? Probably not but the money we could have made from a year in The Premier League would have more than paid for what's happened since.

There is no doubting that we are a better all round club now & better prepared for promotion (compared to then) but we are in theory no further ahead after 10 years on the pitch. But it does seem like that now we have our house in order, we are making the required preparations to have another crack at promotion on the pitch.

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9 hours ago, RumRed said:

I think you're confusing 'the club' with a bit of real estate we happen to play in.

So this "bit of real estate we happen to play in" does not benefit the club then?

It does not improve the matchday experience for the club's supporters?

It does not make the club more attractive to potential players, thereby making the club more likely to prosper?

It does not give the club a sound infrastructure suitable for a higher level of football?

It does not offer a more attractive proposition for potential new fans, the future of the club?

It does not generate more income that benefits the club?

It does not celebrate our heritage with murals, stands named after famous figures in our history, and a John Atyeo statue?

It has not grown average attendances by over a third on recent historical averages?

It does not give a positive impression of a club making strides off the pitch?

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

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25 minutes ago, cynic said:

You've only just noticed that ?

Just stick 'em on ignore - they have nothing constructive to say.

I don't have anyone on ignore because I think you need to hear all sides of an argument for good debate. But the constant need by some to deride absolutely everything - and refusal to see any positives in anything - is getting more and more tiresome.

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16 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The debate was whether our "bad run" lasted 3 months or 5 months, it DEMONSTRABLY lasted for near enough 5 months. Over half of the season.

Still some trying :facepalm:

This has all gotten a bit out of hand since I last logged on.

I've had a drink and a think on this.  Basically I just showed that it could be argued that the bad run wasn't definitively a 5 month run, and it could be seen as a 3 month run. You're way of cutting it three ways just jacks our start up to 1.82ppg (from 11 games) and our ending up to 1.9ppg (from 11 games).  My way shows a slightly more even spread (because I based it on 3 equal chunks of 15 games without cherry picking the start and end points).

However, either way we are slicing the same fairly undercooked cake in slightly different ways.  Neither method gets us away from the fact that the season as a whole was disappointing.  

I think I'm just choosing to see it as less disappointing than you are.

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1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

So this "bit of real estate we happen to play in" does not benefit the club then?

It does not improve the matchday experience for the club's supporters?

It does not make the club more attractive to potential players, thereby making the club more likely to prosper?

It does not give the club a sound infrastructure suitable for a higher level of football?

It does not offer a more attractive proposition for potential new fans, the future of the club?

It does not generate more income that benefits the club?

It does not celebrate our heritage with murals, stands named after famous figures in our history, and a John Atyeo statue?

It has not grown average attendances by over a third on recent historical averages?

It does not give a positive impression of a club making strides off the pitch?

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

How long is the lease?

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43 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

This has all gotten a bit out of hand since I last logged on.

I've had a drink and a think on this.  Basically I just showed that it could be argued that the bad run wasn't definitively a 5 month run, and it could be seen as a 3 month run. You're way of cutting it three ways just jacks our start up to 1.82ppg (from 11 games) and our ending up to 1.9ppg (from 11 games).  My way shows a slightly more even spread (because I based it on 3 equal chunks of 15 games without cherry picking the start and end points).

However, either way we are slicing the same fairly undercooked cake in slightly different ways.  Neither method gets us away from the fact that the season as a whole was disappointing.  

I think I'm just choosing to see it as less disappointing than you are.

Fair enough. 

For me it's simple. 0.6ppg over 25 games is really poor relegation form. Blackburn went down averaging over a point a game.

Therefore, that 25 game period simply has to be called-out for the dreadful run of form it was. I think it's telling that the 15 game period you highlighted was only marginally worse form at 0.53ppg.

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53 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

This has all gotten a bit out of hand since I last logged on.

I've had a drink and a think on this.  Basically I just showed that it could be argued that the bad run wasn't definitively a 5 month run, and it could be seen as a 3 month run. You're way of cutting it three ways just jacks our start up to 1.82ppg (from 11 games) and our ending up to 1.9ppg (from 11 games).  My way shows a slightly more even spread (because I based it on 3 equal chunks of 15 games without cherry picking the start and end points).

However, either way we are slicing the same fairly undercooked cake in slightly different ways.  Neither method gets us away from the fact that the season as a whole was disappointing.  

I think I'm just choosing to see it as less disappointing than you are.

To be honest you can divide up the season how you like, look at runs, form, 10, 20 game periods - fact is a season is 46 games long and 7 teams were worse than us by the end.

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10 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

I felt like this when we made the playoffs in 2008, I just felt that if we had maybe signed a couple of players for £2m or so during the January window (when we were looking to push on), it would have given us the boost & given the whole club some confidence & we would be ready for that final push. And that would have at least of lifted the quality of the squad, no matter what division we were in.

Instead we payed wages to people past their prime & it left us short of any real quality & that filtered down through the seasons.

If we had just speculated, there's no knowing where we could be now.

Would we of been ready for promotion? Probably not but the money we could have made from a year in The Premier League would have more than paid for what's happened since.

There is no doubting that we are a better all round club now & better prepared for promotion (compared to then) but we are in theory no further ahead after 10 years on the pitch. But it does seem like that now we have our house in order, we are making the required preparations to have another crack at promotion on the pitch.

Agh, that January transfer window still gives me nightmares now. A proven goalscorer and we had a real good chance of automatic promotion

Ah well, nowt we can do about it now

Certainly wouldn't have been ready for promotion, but, as you say, take the money, go down, come back stronger. West Brom yo-yo'd for a couple of seasons, then they were ready. Signs that maybe Burnley have hit the magic formula this time around as well. Definitely the way to do it

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18 hours ago, Gazred said:

Interesting and positive article.

SL has it right about the haters being quiet when it's going well. 

I'm sure at one point people were trying to organise a protest at a game to get the board and manager out? Why not do it at the Brum match then? Plenty of people there, SL, MA etc all in attendance, lot of media coverage. You couldn't move for LJ out posts on here during the run of defeats.

Fickle or what.

Even the board discussed whether LJ should stay or go, are they ' haters ' too ?

 I agree that the abuse is uncalled for and ' death threats ' are just mind blowing but many ' Johnson out ' supporters were simply astounded by the perceived incompetence  of the coach and the board as we were sliding inexorably towards the third division.

 Many of us feared for our club and were angry . Most of us are calmer now as we reached safety and it is only those with an irrational dislike of LJ who feel the need to stir up the hornet's nest . 

For me the slate is clean for the new season and the roller coaster ride that ensues supporting this club of ours .

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48 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

Agh, that January transfer window still gives me nightmares now. A proven goalscorer and we had a real good chance of automatic promotion

Ah well, nowt we can do about it now

Certainly wouldn't have been ready for promotion, but, as you say, take the money, go down, come back stronger. West Brom yo-yo'd for a couple of seasons, then they were ready. Signs that maybe Burnley have hit the magic formula this time around as well. Definitely the way to do it

Exactly, speculate to accumulate, if the money wasted on wages for the old has beens had been invested better, there's no knowing where we could be right now & it didn't have to be as much as £10m but the money that could of been made would have been many times more than that & it would have given us players for a couple of seasons, not just one season or so.

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1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

To be honest you can divide up the season how you like, look at runs, form, 10, 20 game periods - fact is a season is 46 games long and 7 teams were worse than us by the end.

Another poster spoiling this forum by using facts!

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8 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Exactly, speculate to accumulate, if the money wasted on wages for the old has beens had been invested better, there's no knowing where we could be right now & it didn't have to be as much as £10m but the money that could of been made would have been many times more than that & it would have given us players for a couple of seasons, not just one season or so.

Byfield - 8 goals, top scorer

That is the thing that stands out in my mind from that season

The big 'what if' question.....What if Orr didn't go off injured and we had to re-organise

Right - I need to go think nice thoughts about something else now, won't be able to sleep tonight!!

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14 hours ago, JHAGa said:

 

Barnsley collapsed since they sold Hourihane to Villa in January. They also sold Winnall to Sheff Wed so admittedly it was two players but it goes to show that a team can be good but still badly affected by the loss of key players.

 

I agree with the last part about either LJ and/or the board misjudging the situation. As I've stated, we were bidding for Joe Mason on deadline day which shows we weren't prepared to lose Kodjia in terms of squad depth and paid that price until January. If we had kept Kodjia I believe we would have finished far higher and our position would have reflected the money spent.

I was thinking of Mawson, too, who they sold in August (as we were selling Kodjia). Then they sold three more in January. That's a lot to deal with, compared to us selling just one of our best players.

But anyway, we can find some agreement that the squad was short of adequate attacking options, between the summer and January windows. Whoever may be responsible for that.

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Even the board discussed whether LJ should stay or go, are they ' haters ' too ?

 I agree that the abuse is uncalled for and ' death threats ' are just mind blowing but many ' Johnson out ' supporters were simply astounded by the perceived incompetence  of the coach and the board as we were sliding inexorably towards the third division.

 Many of us feared for our club and were angry . Most of us are calmer now as we reached safety and it is only those with an irrational dislike of LJ who feel the need to stir up the hornet's nest . 

For me the slate is clean for the new season and the roller coaster ride that ensues supporting this club of ours .

Agree, slate is clean.

You make essentially the same point as others in reply to myself in this thread.

Again, the point i am making is if you don't have faith in the board/owner/manager 3 months ago, why suddenly have faith now? It has to been down purely to results - i.e fickle. 

If people genuinely are concerned about the ownership and it's ability to hire someone to run the footballing side of it, then why should a few good results make a difference? Protest now, once LJ goes and of course he will one day, if SL is still there the process starts again. How long until another sack the board movement?

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1 hour ago, Gazred said:

Agree, slate is clean.

You make essentially the same point as others in reply to myself in this thread.

Again, the point i am making is if you don't have faith in the board/owner/manager 3 months ago, why suddenly have faith now? It has to been down purely to results - i.e fickle. 

If people genuinely are concerned about the ownership and it's ability to hire someone to run the footballing side of it, then why should a few good results make a difference? Protest now, once LJ goes and of course he will one day, if SL is still there the process starts again. How long until another sack the board movement?

I still think he should go, but I'm not a "hater" I want what I feel is best for my club, I support Bristol City not the ******* manager

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7 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

So this "bit of real estate we happen to play in" does not benefit the club then?

It does not improve the matchday experience for the club's supporters?

It does not make the club more attractive to potential players, thereby making the club more likely to prosper?

It does not give the club a sound infrastructure suitable for a higher level of football?

It does not offer a more attractive proposition for potential new fans, the future of the club?

It does not generate more income that benefits the club?

It does not celebrate our heritage with murals, stands named after famous figures in our history, and a John Atyeo statue?

It has not grown average attendances by over a third on recent historical averages?

It does not give a positive impression of a club making strides off the pitch?

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

It benefits BS and therefore the club (at this current point in time) I agree, what happens in the future who knows?

Questionning the clubs structure and its ambitions cannot purely be negated by pointing out that a shed load of money has been spent and therefore we should all bow down before the mighty 'wallet'.

We're never going to agree on what 'the club' is so let's just leave it there.

I'm personally not bothered about the Prem but we have to decide what the aim actually is?

It's easy to blow money, doing something with it that is worthwhile for BCFC is another matter.

BRFC are only 17 places away and they have a tent and a cricket pavilion with a team worth f'all and I'd imagine a wage bill a fraction of ours, let that sink in a minute.

 

I can already guess the comeback to this.

'teams worse than us'

'we could have Venkys'

'Blackpool, Royston'

'Cardiff, Tann'

 

 

Lets just hope Lee pulls it around next season, if we're going down the corporate route let's at least succeed on the pitch.

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49 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I still think he should go, but I'm not a "hater" I want what I feel is best for my club, I support Bristol City not the ******* manager

Well exactly that. Forget the hater tag, doesn't matter how it is defined. 

Nobody seems to be able to explain why a protest was being organised, anti LJ/SL posts and comments on here, string a few results together and they stop.

Fickle.Either you want the board/manager/owner out or you don't (not you personally but those that were keen to protest in the first place).

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4 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Well exactly that. Forget the hater tag, doesn't matter how it is defined. 

Nobody seems to be able to explain why a protest was being organised, anti LJ/SL posts and comments on here, string a few results together and they stop.

Fickle.Either you want the board/manager/owner out or you don't (not you personally but those that were keen to protest in the first place).

I'm sorry but that is not true, plenty still questioning the structure of the club and the manager.  All a lot happier on the match day threads as it has been at the games, as it should be.

To say that people are fickle is just BS though.  There are many of us with concerns and keep posting, we may be proved right and we maybe proved wrong (I prefer the latter option) but to say that opinion has changed as soon as we picked up some points is wrong.

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My stance is that I wanted LJ out from November because I personally do not believe that he is suitable as our Head Coach to make any real progress towards Championship stability and beyond. I am still of that opinion but given that the season has now come to an end, our owner SL has made it very clear that LJ is staying with the Club, albeit for an indeterminate length of time, it seems rather pointless at present to continue to protest.

So let's see what happens on recruitment in the summer and how we are performing. It may be that LJ has and will continue to improve the team's performances and results or maybe it was all a fluke and we'll be back in the mire from day one.  Enjoy what summer we actually get.  

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I see through this thread that there are still those who feel that SL should fall on his sword and there are those among them that don't want to acknowledge that anything good has come from his time at the club. It reminds me of this scene from my favourite all time film.

 

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3 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I see through this thread that there are still those who feel that SL should fall on his sword and there are those among them that don't want to acknowledge that anything good has come from his time at the club. It reminds me of this scene from my favourite all time film.

 

This old chestnut, should have added it to my list of expected ripostes.

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Just now, RumRed said:

This old chestnut, should have added it to my list of expected ripostes.

That's why I love the movie so much, there are so many scenes and lines that can be used in many different situations. Sorry to be so obvious, but if I think of anything else that shouts "ungrateful bastards" as loudly then I will post it here. :) 

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Just now, Port Said Red said:

That's why I love the movie so much, there are so many scenes and lines that can be used in many different situations. Sorry to be so obvious, but if I think of anything else that shouts "ungrateful bastards" as loudly then I will post it here. :) 

Fair play, I go by league position and/or the amount of fan ownership, especially with regards to how much a single individual can own of the club.   Check the figures out from when SL took over vs. today. :thumbsup:

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10 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I see through this thread that there are still those who feel that SL should fall on his sword and there are those among them that don't want to acknowledge that anything good has come from his time at the club. It reminds me of this scene from my favourite all time film.

 

Nice vid (and I basically agree) except what he hasn't bought us is Premier league football...his own stated ambition (though he doesn't talk about it so much these days). 

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Just now, RumRed said:

Fair play, I go by league position and/or the amount of fan ownership, especially with regards to how much a single individual can own of the club.   Check the figures out from when SL took over vs. today. :thumbsup:

Which is fine if your only measure of progress is league position, that has fluctuated as many other clubs have over the period, but not all of them have excellent off field facilities with so little debt in the club itself.

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Just now, GoodridgeandGoater said:

Nice vid (and I basically agree) except what he hasn't bought us is Premier league football...his own stated ambition (though he doesn't talk about it so much these days). 

No he hasn't but, we all know how difficult that is to achieve, but it can be argued that we are in far better position to a) achieve it and b) take advantage of it with decent gates and much lower debt etc. ,  if we get there.

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39 minutes ago, RumRed said:

I'm sorry but that is not true, plenty still questioning the structure of the club and the manager.  All a lot happier on the match day threads as it has been at the games, as it should be.

To say that people are fickle is just BS though.  There are many of us with concerns and keep posting, we may be proved right and we maybe proved wrong (I prefer the latter option) but to say that opinion has changed as soon as we picked up some points is wrong.

I get that i really do, i would put myself in that category, concerned and continuing to monitor things. Been going down The Gate since 84 so not giving up now!

How anyone can deny that the anti board/manager sentiment only appears when results are bad is beyond me.

Still, that's the joy of forum and as much as i welcome and respect all your replies fellow reds , that's my final thoughts on it.

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On 2017-5-10 at 11:25, downendcity said:

I don't think it's a dig, just reflecting what many on here say, i.e. the majority of the critics most prominent on here when things aren't going well, are nowhere to be seen when we doing OK.

 

 

That's because you'd come out with "give it a rest, can't you ever see the positive in anything?" 

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