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Guardian article today on SL and Johnson


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3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I see through this thread that there are still those who feel that SL should fall on his sword and there are those among them that don't want to acknowledge that anything good has come from his time at the club. It reminds me of this scene from my favourite all time film.

 

I Think you will find he's not the Messiah , hes a very naughty boy.

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There appears a confusion in some people's minds.

There are two, although of course linked, issues.

Issue 1 The head coach.  Is he good enough or not?   Next season will answer this for all of us.  If he again appears to be failing badly then my assumption is the owner will act (going by what he himself has said about discussing sacking LJ this season past).  All of us would like to see LJ succeed, but many remain unconvinced that he can do this.

Issue 2 The nature of the structure of Bristol Sport and the position of the owner within that structure.  Many of us remain deeply concerned for the future of City in this arrangement.  These are not personal attacks, however, even if SL is thin skinned, but concerns about structure and governance.   Yet, there comes a limit to how many times we can say this, given the abuse received.  Again time alone will tell who is correct but that gives little comfort to those of us who are so worried for City's long term future.

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On 10/05/2017 at 11:25, downendcity said:

I don't think it's a dig, just reflecting what many on here say, i.e. the majority of the critics most prominent on here when things aren't going well, are nowhere to be seen when we doing OK.

 

 

 

On 10/05/2017 at 11:27, BobBobSuperBob said:

Who are they then ? 

Downend ?

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On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 18:52, NickJ said:

I don't understand why anybody would want to manipulate stats.

The fact is that we finished 3 points away from relegation.

It is also a fact that we spent more than all bar 6 or 7 teams, considerably more than the majority of the teams around us. 

Nobody needs to manipulate stats to justifiably conclude that it was a very poor return.

 

 

Surely spending has to involved having to sell Kodjia ?? City could show a profit on transfers??

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Just now, RumRed said:

:sub:

RR I know you have raised lots of questions over a long period of time about the structure of the club, but your arguments are pretty reasoned and it's not posters like you to which I was referring.

We saw the same sort of thing when things started to go pear shaped under SC, when a few posters suddenly appeared on here with only a small handful of posts to their names. The posts were completely negative and critical and quite a few were pretty vitriolic. When things eventually picked up  - last season following LJ's appointment, and this season when results improved in the latter part of the season - those same posters suddenly disappeared. 

There are plenty of posters on OTIB that raise legitimate questions about the club, the owner and head coach, and have done  ( and quite possibly will continue to do so) for some time. These are not "haters", they are fans just like the rest of us, who love the club and want us to do well. As with so many aspects of life, we all see things differently. Some are glass half full people, and will probably see things through more optimistic and positive eyes. Others, who are more glass half empty, might be more circumspect and sceptical about the same issues.

if we all saw things the same way this forum would be boring. We all have different ideas as to how the club can best go forward and improve. Unfortunately, SL is in the unenviable position of having to decide that and try to keep all City fans happy - an impossible job I think!  The old saying is that you cannot please all of the people all of the time , and that is certainly true with City fans. I suspect that SL understands and accepts that at any point in time there will be a good number of fans who will not agree with his decisions ( certainly true of the decision to stand by LJ at the turn of the year) but that he is think skinned enough to accept that. What I suspect he is less comfortable is the very small minority who take that disagreement to an unacceptable level e.g. if true, that LJ has received death threats, and no proper City fan would condone anything to that degree.

The truth is that if we had been pushing for promotion throughout the season , we would not be having these debates, as ultimately it is success on the field that fans want to see. As long as the club's ambition is not being matched by what is happening on the pitch then the club  will be under increased scrutiny from many fans, and it is right that that should be the case.   

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37 minutes ago, downendcity said:

RR I know you have raised lots of questions over a long period of time about the structure of the club, but your arguments are pretty reasoned and it's not posters like you to which I was referring.

We saw the same sort of thing when things started to go pear shaped under SC, when a few posters suddenly appeared on here with only a small handful of posts to their names. The posts were completely negative and critical and quite a few were pretty vitriolic. When things eventually picked up  - last season following LJ's appointment, and this season when results improved in the latter part of the season - those same posters suddenly disappeared. 

There are plenty of posters on OTIB that raise legitimate questions about the club, the owner and head coach, and have done  ( and quite possibly will continue to do so) for some time. These are not "haters", they are fans just like the rest of us, who love the club and want us to do well. As with so many aspects of life, we all see things differently. Some are glass half full people, and will probably see things through more optimistic and positive eyes. Others, who are more glass half empty, might be more circumspect and sceptical about the same issues.

if we all saw things the same way this forum would be boring. We all have different ideas as to how the club can best go forward and improve. Unfortunately, SL is in the unenviable position of having to decide that and try to keep all City fans happy - an impossible job I think!  The old saying is that you cannot please all of the people all of the time , and that is certainly true with City fans. I suspect that SL understands and accepts that at any point in time there will be a good number of fans who will not agree with his decisions ( certainly true of the decision to stand by LJ at the turn of the year) but that he is think skinned enough to accept that. What I suspect he is less comfortable is the very small minority who take that disagreement to an unacceptable level e.g. if true, that LJ has received death threats, and no proper City fan would condone anything to that degree.

The truth is that if we had been pushing for promotion throughout the season , we would not be having these debates, as ultimately it is success on the field that fans want to see. As long as the club's ambition is not being matched by what is happening on the pitch then the club  will be under increased scrutiny from many fans, and it is right that that should be the case.   

A reasoned post so thanks for the reply to my rather rude single emoji.

I think the thing is being a forum we can also head to our own online 'personas' rather easily.  I'm certainly guilty of that and take cheap shots now and again.

There are positives but there are also questions to be asked, I found it very odd how the forum was suddenly filled with almost evangelical posts by some posters (with little posting history) during the worst point of the season.

We all love this club and want the best for it, be it there every week or exiled.  There will always be differing views but there is a reason that views on how success should be achieved differ.

I can't imagine any other forum where you have kids through to 90 year olds commenting on the same thing?

Football has changed so much too, I'm only 40 but have had my mum shielding me as a kid at away games from bottles (glass, not plastic with the lids confiscated!) and darts whilst stood behind 8 foot fences. The kids today haven't known that, in the same way that I have no idea what my great grandfather felt at the FA cup final.

We're all in different stages of supporting City and our views are always going to be based on our own experiences.

Anyways lets rip this ******* league up next season!  CTID.

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I'm not renewing and this article shows me I made the right decision 

both of them are clowns 

the whole article reeks of two pompous individuals who speak with a tone as if they have just finished just outside the playoffs

they are in bed together for a long while yet so I won't waste my time knowing this dud will never be replaced 

The cheek of Lansdown to speak against fans who were made to watch drivel week in week out

The results got better but it's a bit like seeing a lady without makeup and seeing a different person, ofcourse she can slap loads on later but that memory will never leave you

fool me twice...

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Same old same old, back to where we were this time last season i.m.o.......what progress? we had Kod as a valuable asset then we now have no-one close to his value; in fact we have still to replace him.

There will be quite a few moved out and newbies brought in, time will be given for them to gel (xmas) then it will be too late too change; another "visit" from Steve to the dressing room but it could be to late by then. (my opinion)

Many believe we will find another Tammy/Kod and LJ will fine tune a team to challenge for a play off place, I certainly do not and also do not like the fact that we have been made to be part of something else, we are Bristol City not Bristol Sport.

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1 hour ago, Thatwasclose said:

I'm not renewing and this article shows me I made the right decision 

both of them are clowns 

the whole article reeks of two pompous individuals who speak with a tone as if they have just finished just outside the playoffs

they are in bed together for a long while yet so I won't waste my time knowing this dud will never be replaced 

The cheek of Lansdown to speak against fans who were made to watch drivel week in week out

The results got better but it's a bit like seeing a lady without makeup and seeing a different person, ofcourse she can slap loads on later but that memory will never leave you

fool me twice...

The self congratulatory attitude from both is quite astonishing considering how close we were to going down, but the sentence from that interview which IMO is most revealing,  SL explaining why he thinks (wrongly) that some fans want him to fail:

Lansdown replies: “Maybe because we’ve broken some of their traditions, or they haven’t got the bar they used to drink in".

So dismissive, and just so out of touch with fans of 30/40/50 years supporting City, people without whom he wouldn't have a club to pump his money into.

 

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Genuine question, people like @RumRed - what is that concerns you about the ownership model, and what would you like it to be like?

You don't like being quoted 'bad owners' as comparison, so let's ignore the Venkys and Tan etc.

'Success stories' or teams recently promoted:

  • Bournemouth - despite being saved by local businessmen and fans in 2009 is 75% owned by a Russian businessman and 25% an American consortium.
  • Leicester City - 100% Thai 'King Power' family.
  • Newcastle - 95% Mike Ashley.
  • Brighton - 75% Tony Bloom.
  • Stoke City - 100% Peter Coates - who incidentally appointed and stuck by trusted friend, a man with little to no real managerial success, Tony Pulis, who has now become a respected premier league manager. Jobs for the boys.

I could go on. The bottom line is this idea of some kind of serious level of fan ownership and control in football is a fantasy. As far as I know, the only club with some level of fans ownership in the top 2 divisions is Swansea (20% or so) yet that 20% is regularly ignored, as proved over recent managerial decisions. 

So we can go down a league to find AFC Wimbledon, the highest placed fan owned club, at 15th in league one. Perhaps you'd refer that? Rovers, Rochdale, Plymouth on a Tuesday night. Not for me thanks. 

This is a genuine question to the likes of you and others, because I hear this argument "I'm not just going to bow to the wallet", "I have a right to be concerned", "I maybe proved right, but I hope i'm proved wrong", "I have serious misgivings" and "i'm allowed an opinion" etc etc but I really scratch my head to understand what your opinion actually is, other than questioning the status quo because "that is my right if I choose so". 

 What do you suggest should be changed (give me an example from another club to start with), and how you believe your suggestions for change would actually make things any 'better'?

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2 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

I'm not renewing and this article shows me I made the right decision 

both of them are clowns 

the whole article reeks of two pompous individuals who speak with a tone as if they have just finished just outside the playoffs

they are in bed together for a long while yet so I won't waste my time knowing this dud will never be replaced 

The cheek of Lansdown to speak against fans who were made to watch drivel week in week out

The results got better but it's a bit like seeing a lady without makeup and seeing a different person, ofcourse she can slap loads on later but that memory will never leave you

fool me twice...

That's your opinion, but not at all as I read it.  Both seemed to me to be handling the Guardian's questions intelligently and the article was very interesting.  Clearly neither are 'clowns' and I think Lansdown was entitled to comment on the level of abuse and vitriol from a small minority of fans.  You don't feel death threats were appropriate, surely?

Your analysis is way off the mark and your justification for not renewing feeble.  Still you'll save a bit of money and I hope you find something to do on a Saturday afternoon which makes you feel better.  A spot of gardening?  Shopping with the wife?  A nice trip to Horfield?

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9 minutes ago, NickJ said:

@Alessandro

Steve frequently but incorrectly compares Bristol Sport to the Barcelona model.

If Steve made the actual Barcelona model a reality, that would be fine by me.

Nick I don't know why you keep doing this but, he doesn't. The only reference he makes to Barcelona is he visited and had a look around, found out some more information on what it is and thought it was a great idea. He has done his own thing because he loves sport in general. You seem intent on taking snippets and rewriting it to suit your long held distrust of SL. Admit it, he can never do any right in your eyes even if he took us the champions league final for the 5th season on the trot.

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14 minutes ago, NickJ said:

@Alessandro

Steve frequently but incorrectly compares Bristol Sport to the Barcelona model.

If Steve made the actual Barcelona model a reality, that would be fine by me.

This is very vague Nick.

'Frequently' being, what, a once or twice over the past few years and 'compares' being something to take ideas from and aspire to?

I'm 99.9% sure you won't find a quote by SL or the club actually comparing, in terms of success, Bristol Sport and Barcelona.

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4 minutes ago, screech said:

Nick I don't know why you keep doing this but, he doesn't. The only reference he makes to Barcelona is he visited and had a look around, found out some more information on what it is and thought it was a great idea. He has done his own thing because he loves sport in general. You seem intent on taking snippets and rewriting it to suit your long held distrust of SL. Admit it, he can never do any right in your eyes even if he took us the champions league final for the 5th season on the trot.

Cease telling me what I think and what my view is and we will get on fine. I have never said I distrust SL - not in the way you mean - in fact on many occasion have explicitly said he is probably well intentioned.

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

This is very vague Nick.

'Frequently' being, what, a once or twice over the past few years and 'compares' being something to take ideas from and aspire to?

I'm 99.9% sure you won't find a quote by SL or the club actually comparing, in terms of success, Bristol Sport and Barcelona.

No not in terms of success, of course not, you are 100% not 99.9% right there. I am talking of the model not the outcome or the achievements.

In the early days of Bristol Sport Steve definitely compared the Bristol Sport model with Barcelona with an implication that Bristol Sport was the same. Granted, not so much recently, I think at the time he genuinely thought they were the same.

Barcelona and Bristol Sport both have involvements in many sports and that is where the similarity ends.

I believe fans should have more say in the running of their clubs, and so back to your original question, a genuine Barcelona model would tick the boxes for me. 

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3 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

I'm not renewing and this article shows me I made the right decision 

both of them are clowns 

the whole article reeks of two pompous individuals who speak with a tone as if they have just finished just outside the playoffs

they are in bed together for a long while yet so I won't waste my time knowing this dud will never be replaced 

The cheek of Lansdown to speak against fans who were made to watch drivel week in week out

The results got better but it's a bit like seeing a lady without makeup and seeing a different person, ofcourse she can slap loads on later but that memory will never leave you

fool me twice...

In their defence, both LJ and SL came under huge pressure last season, and both took some abuse too, by all accounts (although I wouldn't count "we want Johnson out" as abuse, nor "you don't know what you're doing" both being people simply expressing how they feel without resorting to personal abuse) so I think it only fair and reasonable they have their say once the season is finished. I think SL is still pretty bruised and it's not surprising that he is still "smarting" from it all. I wouldn't expect him to be ready yet to forgive and forget.

Interesting that Peter Coates is mentioned above: he was hounded out of Stoke by their "noisy" element, only to return a few years later and be very successful. Be interesting to see how SL reacts to all this in future.

The whole article reeks of a national broadsheet giving both a bit of an easy ride though, in my opinion. 

 

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2 hours ago, NickJ said:

The self congratulatory attitude from both is quite astonishing considering how close we were to going down, but the sentence from that interview which IMO is most revealing,  SL explaining why he thinks (wrongly) that some fans want him to fail:

Lansdown replies: “Maybe because we’ve broken some of their traditions, or they haven’t got the bar they used to drink in".

So dismissive, and just so out of touch with fans of 30/40/50 years supporting City, people without whom he wouldn't have a club to pump his money into.

 

Agreed. 

There is a tone of dismissing those traditions and giving too much weight to this argument. 

The number wanting him to fail must be miniscule. 

The traditions people are concerned with are not bars ffs. They were all shit before Steve. It's fans representation, atmosphere etc. 

Don't belittle the subject of tradition to some shitty bar selling overpriced fizz. 

I'd like SL to summarise which traditions he believes he has "broken". My list will be bigger than his I expect. 

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2 hours ago, NickJ said:

The self congratulatory attitude from both is quite astonishing considering how close we were to going down, but the sentence from that interview which IMO is most revealing,  SL explaining why he thinks (wrongly) that some fans want him to fail:

Lansdown replies: “Maybe because we’ve broken some of their traditions, or they haven’t got the bar they used to drink in".

So dismissive, and just so out of touch with fans of 30/40/50 years supporting City, people without whom he wouldn't have a club to pump his money into.

 

I hate that SL reply, and yes after 50yrs I have never felt so distant from my club and don't like the road its being taken down; :no:

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I think in SL we have an owner who wants to turn City into his own image of the club, forgetting, using the basis of the words Robin Day used to a Government Minister, 'You are a here today, gone tomorrow owner'.  SL would be better advised     to be a tad more humble and a lot more understanding of the very genuine concerns being expressed about the broader structure and governance of the club.

He risks coming over, like SC, as petulant.  Not an attractive feature in a grown adult. My advice is simple - be a little more self aware

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37 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Cease telling me what I think and what my view is and we will get on fine. I have never said I distrust SL - not in the way you mean - in fact on many occasion have explicitly said he is probably well intentioned.

No not in terms of success, of course not, you are 100% not 99.9% right there. I am talking of the model not the outcome or the achievements.

In the early days of Bristol Sport Steve definitely compared the Bristol Sport model with Barcelona with an implication that Bristol Sport was the same. Granted, not so much recently, I think at the time he genuinely thought they were the same.

Happy to see a quote from you on this, because this reads to me as your opinion on what of what SL is 'thinking' - something you just told someone else to cease doing to you.

37 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Barcelona and Bristol Sport both have involvements in many sports and that is where the similarity ends.

I believe fans should have more say in the running of their clubs, and so back to your original question, a genuine Barcelona model would tick the boxes for me. 

I think the socios model is a very interesting one, but it is a system that will never become standard in this country now given the money involved. It certainly wouldn't work at most levels of football as the socios don't generate enough money themselves. It works for Real and Barca etc, as they have massive TV money and other revenues.

Yes the fans may choose their president every 2 or four years or whatever it is and it can be anyone - but good luck the average fan finding the 77 million deposit required to stand, so to be honest you can debate the validity of that model anyway. It's certainly a 'democracy' not without flaws. 

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19 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I think in SL we have an owner who wants to turn City into his own image of the club, forgetting, using the basis of the words Robin Day used to a Government Minister, 'You are a here today, gone tomorrow owner'.  SL would be better advised     to be a tad more humble and a lot more understanding of the very genuine concerns being expressed about the broader structure and governance of the club.

He risks coming over, like SC, as petulant.  Not an attractive feature in a grown adult. My advice is simple - be a little more self aware

Petulant - certainly a word that could be used about many City fans when they didn't get their way over LJ's sacking. Perhaps a little more self awareness is also need in the fan base?

Or are we exempt from that? And does SL have to rise above it, and not be 'human' after all?

Lot's of vague - "my clubs not the way it used to be" chat over the last few posts. Some didn't like his 'lost their favourite pub' metaphor.

Genuinely, any specific examples? Not these broad stoke, wishy washy 'governance of the club' type statements. What is worse than it used to be and what should be different now?

Because to me, they're just proving his point. There is what can comes across as a small minded mentality. Little Britain. Progress, change, development. It doesn't have to be scary.

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7 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Happy to see a quote from you on this, because this reads to me as your opinion on what of what SL is 'thinking' - something you just told someone else to cease doing to you.

I

There is a difference though. I expressed a view on what I think SL believed, with an emphasis on my view of Steve's lack of understanding as opposed to any malice, as in:

"I think at the time he genuinely thought they were the same."

 

Quite different from:

"your long held distrust of SL. Admit it, he can never do any right in your eyes "

I take exception to that because it is stated as fact but is in fact untrue.

 

As for the flaws in the Barcelona model, of course there are. But still far better than any club in England, IMO.

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2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Petulant - certainly a word that could be used about many City fans when they didn't get their way over LJ's sacking. Perhaps a little more self awareness is also need in the fan base?

Or are we exempt from that? And does SL have to rise above it, and not be 'human' after all?

Lot's of vague - "my clubs not the way it used to be" chat over the last few posts. Some didn't like his 'lost their favourite pub' metaphor.

Genuinely, any specific examples? Not these broad stoke, wishy washy 'governance of the club' type statements. What is worse than it used to be and what should be different now?

Because to me, they're just proving his point. There is what can comes across as a small minded mentality. Little Britain. Progress, change, development. It doesn't have to be scary.

Did anyone ask the fans if they wanted to be under the Bristol Sport Umbrella? BCFC are now part of something else, the board is toothless and under SL`s control. We are tied into this ground share with other clubs and are unable to do nothing about it.

Where does BCFC`s money input go? ST`s, transfer fees etc? the bank of Bristol Sport or the bank of BCFC, how is the grounds running costs shared amongst its users? it seems way to complicated now....but its progress as you say.

Cant see any progress on the pitch and that was with the best goalscorer outside the prem......and yes I am scared, scared of where one man might decide he wants to take this club.

A pie, pint and footie on a Saturday has changed and developed as you say, its certainly nothing like what I exp in the late 60`s / 70`s .......modern footie, agents, sky, bt, health and safety and foreign imports have killed English football forever. :mf_sleep:

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4 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Petulant - certainly a word that could be used about many City fans when they didn't get their way over LJ's sacking. Perhaps a little more self awareness is also need in the fan base?

Or are we exempt from that? And does SL have to rise above it, and not be 'human' after all?

Lot's of vague - "my clubs not the way it used to be" chat over the last few posts. Some didn't like his 'lost their favourite pub' metaphor.

Genuinely, any specific examples? Not these broad stoke, wishy washy 'governance of the club' type statements. What is worse than it used to be and what should be different now?

Because to me, they're just proving his point. There is what can comes across as a small minded mentality. Little Britain. Progress, change, development. It doesn't have to be scary.

Governance : A chairman and Board who are puppets of the owner; Despite the pr about being committed to the community no fan representation, let alone community representation, on The Board; As I have said before, ad nauseam, an owner whose management outlook and skills set are rooted in the early 20th century, i.e. a failure to seek independent advice and counsel and act on it.

 He should undertake some media training to control his totally unwarranted outbursts against fans, some of whom have been supporters from before he was born.  He needs to show some respect in order to gain respect. He needs to learn what transparency actually means in terms of 21st century governance, as well as turning pr about community into full practice.

As Glos Old Boy has said it is difficult to see where City will be as a legal and business entity once the Lansdowns give up, as they inevitably will.

If you can't get what a number of us are saying, and are very worried and scared about, you will just have to wait and see what will happen - and hope we are wrong.

I have never met Lansdown, and assume, save for the question of tax which I find morally inexcusable, a good guy; but after all these years as owner I believe he is out of his depth.

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6 hours ago, NickJ said:

Cease telling me what I think and what my view is and we will get on fine. I have never said I distrust SL - not in the way you mean - in fact on many occasion have explicitly said he is probably well intentioned.

No not in terms of success, of course not, you are 100% not 99.9% right there. I am talking of the model not the outcome or the achievements.

In the early days of Bristol Sport Steve definitely compared the Bristol Sport model with Barcelona with an implication that Bristol Sport was the same. Granted, not so much recently, I think at the time he genuinely thought they were the same.

Barcelona and Bristol Sport both have involvements in many sports and that is where the similarity ends.

I believe fans should have more say in the running of their clubs, and so back to your original question, a genuine Barcelona model would tick the boxes for me. 

One of Mr Lansdown's quotes was "if it is good enough for Barcelona its good enough for Bristol".

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