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London Tower Block Fire


WhistleHappy

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36 minutes ago, bend it like brian said:

 

so is it better now privatised...or better than when it was government run?? 

For workers it's better, for public it's a whole lot worse,

safety for network rail is prob up ther with best in the world, for the contractors that work on the railway however.......

ticket prices on the other hand are the worst, network rail and the general maintenance of the railway has little baring on that, that's greed culture

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12 hours ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

 

I can see why they kept Prince Phillip well out of it with his track record inappropriate intercourse with the public.

* Phillip a 'dogger' ?  ... well blow me! ..who'd have thought it?

(imagine Her Maj exclaiming 'what are you doing Phil?' ... and the reply comes back in his best Roger Moore RIP 007 voice ... 'just keeping the German end up Ma'am '  :) 

.... mind you, respect to a 91 year old, credit where its due! )

 

* I know post this not in keeping with the nature of this tragic thread - but God knows we need a little light relief from the traumatic  events of this week.   .....  

 

Seriously now...

Sincere thoughts to all victims of the fire .. the deceased (known and unknown) RIP ... relatives, friends, all who have lost loved ones, homes and non replaceable personal items... and not forgetting the brilliant emergency services who's jobs this week have brought them face to face with things no human should have to endure thanks go to them.

The anger and upset is obviously understood and shared, but the predictable and wrong bandwagon jumping ' race-cardists ' are the last thing that anyone needs right now ... premature misguided anger and vitriol directed at possible the wrong targets is not helpful either.  Perhaps this is best saved till facts can be established and blame apportioned correctly... those people responsible for this will, I hope, feel the full weight of everything that is due and coming to them when identified. Lets save the retribution for those that really deserve all that they get.

 I too detest some of the people who have been vilified and attacked in the hours and days since the tragic event occurred - but as much as I whole heartedly dislike May, Khan etc I can't see how they can personally be blamed for the way this building was constructed - I doubt either of them had even first hand knowledge of the tower before this happened. No more so than Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Wilson or Heath would have had knowledge or hands on experience of this 1960s built Bristol tower block that I've lived in since the mid-nineties, the one that I am comfortably housed in as I type right now...

If, heaven forbid, anything terrible were to happen here, I fail to see how any of the political leaders mentioned above could be seen to be culpable for it, unless personally proven to have had a hand in the quality of design/building/maintenance or any subsequent penny pinching corner-cutting shenanigans on their watch.

Make no mistake, heads must roll for what has happened in London this week, but before taking  a knee jerk scatter gun approach to recriminations lets make sure THE RIGHT PEOPLE, THOSE ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE, THE ONES WITH VESTED INTERESTS are the ones winkled out and are the ones who ultimately get it in the neck.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

So she sat on a committee,

its scraping th barrel even for you es, no mention of how she voted or the fact she left said committee before works took place on the tower block

but any chance for George Osbourne to link this to labour and away from his and the tory cuts I suppose 

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2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

So she sat on a committee,

its scraping th barrel even for you es, no mention of how she voted or the fact she left said committee before works took place on the tower block

but any chance for George Osbourne to link this to labour and away from his and the tory cuts I suppose 

The Guardian piece made absolutely no mention of it, don't even you think that if she had voted, warned or voiced concerns that she would be crowing about it now?.

Sadly there are a lot of people who have blood on their hands over this tragedy, some of them are politicians some of them are business men and women and not all of them will turn out to be tories.

The highlighted pointed is pathetic, I don't care what colour rosette the guilty wear but what is really scraping the barrel is the usual eyed view of the few.

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23 hours ago, Spoons said:

It's like she's now saying ' well I don't give a **** anymore' as I haven't got to win anymore votes as she's not going to be fighting another election! 

Go now May! 

As someone quite rightly said yesterday, if the fire was 3wks before the election there'd have been more politicians there than firemen...

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1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

The Guardian piece made absolutely no mention of it, don't even you think that if she had voted, warned or voiced concerns that she would be crowing about it now?.

Sadly there are a lot of people who have blood on their hands over this tragedy, some of them are politicians some of them are business men and women and not all of them will turn out to be tories.

The highlighted pointed is pathetic, I don't care what colour rosette the guilty wear but what is really scraping the barrel is the usual eyed view of the few.

I think we have a clash generally whilst debating on here between party allegiance, individual world view and value systems.

It is making for a right old mish-mash in debating the issues. 

I vote tactically, am a floater so to speak.  I have no political allegiance.  Likewise with the papers or websites, if I agree with the article or if it has influenced my thinking then I will take it on board regardless of the outlets overall stance.

There is too much 'boxing up' of individuals re highly complex matters.

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Everyone is out for what they can get, some don't get as much as others......

It will no doubt like other disasters go to court when "the judge" has been selected.........everyone will be out for what they can get.....those who need it least will get the most, those who need it most will get the least.

Councils select their contractors and the people from all parishes select the councils for their parishes.

Money talks loudest and yes everyone is out for what they can get.....so it will go on.....forever...everywhere. :mf_sleep:

 

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2 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

The Guardian piece made absolutely no mention of it, don't even you think that if she had voted, warned or voiced concerns that she would be crowing about it now?.

Sadly there are a lot of people who have blood on their hands over this tragedy, some of them are politicians some of them are business men and women and not all of them will turn out to be tories.

The highlighted pointed is pathetic, I don't care what colour rosette the guilty wear but what is really scraping the barrel is the usual eyed view of the few.

She did vote against it, and was branded a nuisance for doing so from stuff I read earlier. (Do not have a link, read it while staying at my Mums using her laptop)

If you have a look through her blog, she is also highly critical about a lot of things, particularly around housing. So it is fairly unlikely for someone like that to push something through without any diligance done.

What you have done, is shout "she was there, blame her too!" Without knowing what she did. 

If she did have concerns and didnt air them, she is in the wrong. But, I have no doubt at all given previous posts of yours that if she raised those concerns and was "crowing" about it now, you would be criticising her for doing so right after the tragedy.

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1 hour ago, glos old boy said:

 

It will no doubt like other disasters go to court when "the judge" has been selected

 

Bullshit.  Look at this for an example of unbiased investigation and reporting, this report has made many differences to practices in the rail industry, why should one into a fire be any different?

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hidden001.pdf

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57 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

She did vote against it, and was branded a nuisance for doing so from stuff I read earlier. (Do not have a link, read it while staying at my Mums using her laptop)

If you have a look through her blog, she is also highly critical about a lot of things, particularly around housing. So it is fairly unlikely for someone like that to push something through without any diligance done.

What you have done, is shout "she was there, blame her too!" Without knowing what she did. 

If she did have concerns and didnt air them, she is in the wrong. But, I have no doubt at all given previous posts of yours that if she raised those concerns and was "crowing" about it now, you would be criticising her for doing so right after the tragedy.

Absolutely bang on. Much like the attempts to blame Sadiq Kahn despite this not failing under his remit, this feels like Conservatives trying to find Labour politicians they can smear to deflect attention from the failings of Conservative MPs and councillors.  There is absolutely no allegation here beyond innuendo and there is no "balance" in repeating innuendo-based smears about a recently elected politician.

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13 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Absolutely bang on. Much like the attempts to blame Sadiq Kahn despite this not failing under his remit, this feels like Conservatives trying to find Labour politicians they can smear to deflect attention from the failings of Conservative MPs and councillors.  There is absolutely no allegation here beyond innuendo and there is no "balance" in repeating innuendo-based smears about a recently elected politician.

I'm surprised the haven't blamed the previous labour government, they normally do dispite not being in power for almost 10 years

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14 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Absolutely bang on. Much like the attempts to blame Sadiq Kahn despite this not failing under his remit, this feels like Conservatives trying to find Labour politicians they can smear to deflect attention from the failings of Conservative MPs and councillors.  There is absolutely no allegation here beyond innuendo and there is no "balance" in repeating innuendo-based smears about a recently elected politician.

I think you have listened to far too many spin doctors, firstly nobody has tried to smear Emma Coad, but surely even you must agree that failure to mention that she was on the committee that signed the work off was a huge mistake and has left herself wide open to innuendo.

The tories are in the frame because I am assuming that they ran Kensington council and this happened on their's and the governments watch and their woeful efforts since the tragedy, as for Sadiq Khan he is the frame because it happened on his watch and his efforts since the tragedy have been woeful, that is how it works and Sadiq Khan I suspect is man enough to accept that this politics.

The real guilt lies with the politicians who agreed to and then signed off this work, the contractors who carried out the work, the building inspectors who signed off this work, maybe the London fire brigade for signing off this work, but also the 312 tories who voted against rented properties having to be habitable for human habitation and even worse the fact that local councils of all political persuasion having been doing this anyway for far too many years now anyway.

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8 minutes ago, marshy said:

Note to Mods. As this thread is being shamelessly used for political purposes should it not be moved to the 'Politics' board. This vilification of Teresa May (not that I am a supporter) by the Corbynistas really has gone too far.

I agree, it would be nice if our angry brigade actually took time to read posts before inventing what they thought that they read, my original post about Emma Coad contained 2 attachments and a short throwaway line and no view either way other than incredulity that she never thought it important enough to mention but it didn't stop @Monkeh throwing  an accusation my way that as usual the baying crowd has jumped upon.

My views are just that my views and if I have a view I will post it, if I post to try to offer balance I will post it, sadly the angry brigade cannot get their heads around somebody who doesn't wear a political rosette, so to them they must be a tory, very strange.

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47 minutes ago, marshy said:

Note to Mods. As this thread is being shamelessly used for political purposes should it not be moved to the 'Politics' board. This vilification of Teresa May (not that I am a supporter) by the Corbynistas really has gone too far.

Yes - it's almost as bad as the BBC 10 o'clock news.

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Not a news source I usually look at, so no idea how accurate they are, but if there is truth in the report about the cladding being definitely to blame, then I really fail to see how MP's and or Ministers of any party are to blame.  It must lie with one of, the architect, the suppliers of the cladding, the contractors if they used the wrong cladding and the building inspector.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-cladding-is-banned-in-uk-government-says-10919319

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22 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Not a news source I usually look at, so no idea how accurate they are, but if there is truth in the report about the cladding being definitely to blame, then I really fail to see how MP's and or Ministers of any party are to blame.  It must lie with one of, the architect, the suppliers of the cladding, the contractors if they used the wrong cladding and the building inspector.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-cladding-is-banned-in-uk-government-says-10919319

Agreed.  In my mind whether it was the cladding or not then these people need to be put under the microscope post haste. I can't see the cladding as being the root cause but certainly was a catalyst in helping the fire take hold so quick. All of the above should have their business activities suspended immediately pending the investigation.

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9 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I came on the thread to read thinking it was about the fire tragedy but I see people's political agendas won't wait 

Anything to get political views on table

Most of those moaning about the council / police / govt are lucky they are even here

 

I sort of agree with this, too soon, too raw to apportion blame.

What you mean by the last bit though...if there r have been Council/Government failings in this, they should not brushed under the carpet and those responsible- from any party or department, without fear or favour- should be held to account.

Are you implying they should be brushed aside- just because the Man in Whitehall knows best?

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7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I sort of agree with this, too soon, too raw to apportion blame.

What you mean by the last bit though...if there r have been Council/Government failings in this, they should not brushed under the carpet and those responsible- from any party or department, without fear or favour- should be held to account.

Are you implying they should be brushed aside- just because the Man in Whitehall knows best?

Not at all

But the knee jerk reaction and apportioning of blame is crazy and dangerous 

The impartial investigations and Inquiries in this country are second to none and the truth will be uncovered,, whatever that may be , unlike in many countries 

 

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5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not at all

But the knee jerk reaction and apportioning of blame is crazy and dangerous 

The impartial investigations and Inquiries in this country are second to none and the truth will be uncovered,, whatever that may be , unlike in many countries 

 

Fair points and I broadly agree.

I just hope the last bit is right and it will be uncovered well and truly- better than many countries though, no doubt about it.

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I have read through these posts with great sadness and know that there is nothing I can say that will bring back those that have died or are still missing. However, I do have a couple of points to make:

Having  worked for Rydon for nearly 10 years a long time ago, I can confirm that in those days they did not cut corners and did not knowingly practice any unsafe measures. However, the way the building caught fire suggests that the regulations need to be urgently reviewed and the materials and/or method of construction also need to be examined carefully. Whilst some of these old tower blocks are hideous eyesores, slapping brightly coloured panels on them does not disguise the fact that the original infrastructure of the building was designed for people 60 odd years ago when demands were very different to today. Are these blocks seriously fit for use today?

My second point is that one of the first fire fighters to arrive at the blaze was a friend of my son. I saw him on the news and was immensely proud of him. I know that these guys have seen things that will haunt them and some of them will have trouble getting past this. They are brave and do our country proud.

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