Smoke

[WolfOfWestStreet]

38 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

I'm afraid every misdemeanour is a life ban these days. 

The club doesn't have the same principles, however, when it comes to players. Like every other club. 

Life ban seems to be the default action without any proper chance for fans to defend themselves. 

Exactly. If you are arrested you go to court and they will decide if you should be punished. 

If the club say you are guilty, thats it you're done. (forever)

[Agard Days Night]

Can't believe the club are going to take such a hard line on this. We pay for our tickets and if we want to do something 'against the rules' we bloody well will. Who are they to tell us what to do. What next, lifetime ban for actually joining in with a song or prosecution for jumping up to celebrate a goal? Shambles. 

[Sixtyseconds]

4 hours ago, Super said:

Certainly life ban for the braindead idiot who threw it onto the pitch.

Holy smokes ...

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, Agard Days Night said:

Can't believe the club are going to take such a hard line on this. We pay for our tickets and if we want to do something 'against the rules' we bloody well will. Who are they to tell us what to do. What next, lifetime ban for actually joining in with a song or prosecution for jumping up to celebrate a goal? Shambles. 

It's probably the 'we'll do what we want' attitude that causes the club to take a hard line approach.

Not saying I agree with bans being dished out, but given how much he been invested in the stadium and how the match day experience has changed along with the increased attendance, I wouldn't be surprised if those the club deem slightly less desirable are jettisoned to keep familes more on side.

[Spoons]

If you want to bring a flare into the ground then do it.. But don't moan when you get banned and possibly prosecuted as the rules are clear.

Pretty simple really? 

[Nogbad the Bad]

Do all clubs treat this issue with the same seriousness with automatic long term bans and prosecutions?

I seem to remember reading about Rovers taking a less heavy handed approach to the same issue last season.

 

 

 

[Bristol Rob]

5 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Do all clubs treat this issue with the same seriousness with automatic long term bans and prosecutions?

I seem to remember reading about Rovers taking a less heavy handed approach to the same issue last season.

 

 

 

To be fair, Rovers probably need the fifteen quid ticket money more than we do.

[Nogbad the Bad]

In fact, here we are on gaschat:

'fans banned until Christmas over smoke grenade ... it has been the yellow card approach with them.'

So apparently the Rovers' fans were not arrested, prosecuted, or banned from the ground long term.

http://gaschat.co.uk/thread/8317/banned-live-streaming-match

 

 

 

[Cotham Brow Red]

It is sadly a common sense issue. Christ imagine if you were stood next to someone who set off a firework in the stand. And if you had your young nipper with you. These things are basicaly the same kinda thing. Ive seen a tool cock about with a firework and its gone up in his face with disfiguring burns for life. This is why these things should be banned. Imagine an incident where something like this goes tits up. How many people here who think this is acceptible would not kick off at the club if it they or there kid were burnt?.

Anyway the truth is that the stewarding and security still not good enuf as it got in didnt it?. How long before a terrorist attack hits a football match in the uk?

[Leveller]

16 minutes ago, Cotham Brow Red said:

It is sadly a common sense issue. Christ imagine if you were stood next to someone who set off a firework in the stand. And if you had your young nipper with you. These things are basicaly the same kinda thing. Ive seen a tool cock about with a firework and its gone up in his face with disfiguring burns for life. This is why these things should be banned. Imagine an incident where something like this goes tits up. How many people here who think this is acceptible would not kick off at the club if it they or there kid were burnt?.

Anyway the truth is that the stewarding and security still not good enuf as it got in didnt it?. How long before a terrorist attack hits a football match in the uk?

I suspect most of us havent got a clue whether this sort of smoke device is as dangerous as a firework and that's part of the problem.

Half are assuming they're quite dangerous and the other half are assuming they're harmless.

Does anyone actually know?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I think like with a lot of things, who is in charge of it and how it's handled/discharged is key here...I credit the original authors with excellent pictures.

 

C

I think we can all agree that looks pretty great. Like I say though- someone calm who knows what they are doing, discharging- excellent, adds to it?

Someone who shall we say has had a few, isn't so experienced at it or similar- perhaps younger though that's a bit prejudiced...you run the risk of what happened at Charlton away.

[T R]

3 hours ago, MrBibs said:

I was fairly near to the bloke who was asked to leave for throwing the flare onto the pitch.  From what I saw the flare landed near to him and he then threw it away and it landed on the pitch.

He was involved in a long and heated discussion with a steward then at half time 3 or 4 police and a number of stewards came up to him and asked him to leave.  He didn't bring the flare into the ground and was unlucky from what I saw that the flare landed near him, and as a result I assume he'll be banned.

 

3 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

And did the person who actually did let it off step forward and own up or was he happy to let another fellow City fan take the blame?

No, thought not.

This is pretty much my observation the guy seemed annoyed it landed next to him. Picked it up and threw it onto the pitch being the only safe place to put it. We've had this discussion before where if you haven't even let them off but pick them up then you get banned. Could'nt believe when the second one went off a chap picked it up and held it up in the air for a minute, don't think he realised he is being filmed and he'll be banned aswell. They should ban the ones who actually bring them in and set them off. 

[Phileas Fogg]

51 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Do all clubs treat this issue with the same seriousness with automatic long term bans and prosecutions?

I seem to remember reading about Rovers taking a less heavy handed approach to the same issue last season.

No I don't think they do. I know a few years back a couple of young city fans got a year or two year ban for a similar incident at MK Dons. That was OTT but this is on another level if it's genuinely a lifetime ban.

I can understand the reasoning for not allowing them, but I hope @Mkelly and co consider the context.. first game of the season, people drinking etc.. a slap on the wrist and final warning would suffice. No need to be banning people for life, punishment hardly fits crime.

 

[Cotham Brow Red]

21 minutes ago, Leveller said:

I suspect most of us havent got a clue whether this sort of smoke device is as dangerous as a firework and that's part of the problem.

Half are assuming they're quite dangerous and the other half are assuming they're harmless.

Does anyone actually know?

I do not deny they look great and can be superb to atmosphere i just think they do have a potential to go wrong. Just do not want to see it happen. Guess my mate who got disfigured by a seemingly tame firework makes me think differently.

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 minutes ago, Cotham Brow Red said:

I do not deny they look great and can be superb to atmosphere i just think they do have a potential to go wrong. Just do not want to see it happen. Guess my mate who got disfigured by a seemingly tame firework makes me think differently.

Wasn`t the young daughter of a poster hit on the head drawing blood by one being thrown away at Fulham(?) last season and he posted pictures on here? I did see myself the tool who decided to throw one from the Atyeo onto the pitch into the middle of a crowd of people during the post Walsall promotion celebrations too. Also, not at City, but what about the knob who decided it would be fun to let one off in Exeter`s wooden stand last season resulting in it having to be evacuated.

As with most things in life, give halfwits access to something which has the potential to cause injury/damage/inconvenience and they`ll do their level best to make sure it does.

[Globe Trotter]

5 hours ago, Super said:

Certainly life ban for the braindead idiot who threw it onto the pitch.

Are you aware of the circumstances of how it ended on the pitch? 

[Bobbie]

7 hours ago, Chris_Brown said:

 

Set them off in your own house then not where others are forced to suffer then. 

Yea that's a great idea, I'll also sings songs at the wall and wave my flag in the toilet. 

 

I hope there's smoke at Brum and Brentford. I can't wait! 

[Globe Trotter]

4 hours ago, Mkelly said:

The pitch is heavily invested in to ensure a high quality playing surface, my grounds team worked 14 hours today and will do the same tomorrow 

See the picture below.  Not only does it ruin the integrity of the pitch it's also a massive risk if landed on a child.

we are very much encouraging atmosphere and whole heartily suppprt section 82 and are working close with them to create something special 

we have identified the guys who threw the flare and can assure you that they will be banned and prosecuted 

Mark 

 

I totally agree with what you're saying about the pitch and of course generally throwing flares. Can you please get in touch regarding the flare that ended up on the pitch; a man threw it on there cos it ended up at a kids feet - he shouldn't be punished for that. I witnessed the whole thing so please give me a PM

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, Agard Days Night said:

Can't believe the club are going to take such a hard line on this. We pay for our tickets and if we want to do something 'against the rules' we bloody well will. Who are they to tell us what to do. What next, lifetime ban for actually joining in with a song or prosecution for jumping up to celebrate a goal? Shambles. 

Well no, because they aren't illegal.

[paulcityfan]

24 minutes ago, Leveller said:

I suspect most of us havent got a clue whether this sort of smoke device is as dangerous as a firework and that's part of the problem.

Half are assuming they're quite dangerous and the other half are assuming they're harmless.

Does anyone actually know?

I know a fair bit about this.  I staretd out and ran a paintball business for several years and then moved on as a global laser tag wholesale business whIch I recently sold. In all of this time, over 13 years, we sold smoke grenades wholesale to official venues, paintball, lasertag and airsoft and used them at our demonstration venue to be used on site and not taken home btw.  We were able to ship them around the UK with some of the couriers without  problem, we did declare that these were 4g pyrotechnics (classed as consumer level fireworks).  

These are the official instructions provided. 1. Do not throw in the direction of persons.  2.  Do not carry in pockets.  3. Do not use in confined spaces. 4.  Do not hold while lit, place on the ground.

During the 13 years we used various suppliers and had some lively discussions with activity insurance suppliers.  In the UK the two main suppliers are Enola Gaye (looks like those that were used at the game today) usually ring pulls these days (to ignite) that burn for approx a minute and give a decent plume, and TLSFX (Tony Lewis special effects).  Tony claimed to be using a compound that used natural ingredients and did not cause breathing iritations, and burned cooler for safety, so you could hold them.  After using that brand for several years I did not believe him.  Players still coughed and they would sometimes get really hot.  Both suppliers had their stuff made in China and re-labelled them. Both suppliers fought an intense price war against each other as this was in the paintball heyday of the 90's and early 2000's somewhat lucrative.  Still pretty big business now I guess. Lots of nonsense was said from these suppliers and from personal experience they didn't differ much.  Both have lots of misfires where the device does not ignite at all and both had devices that would suddenly flare fire unexpectedly not just emit smoke.  We did cause a few gorse fires at our venue in dry conditions.  I once accidentally dropped a whole box of 100 and the lot went up.  The friction ignited one and then the rest just went too.  And that was a significant fire hazard catching a shed ablaze as you could not go near it until it had burned itself out.  Being phosphorous water does not extinguish very well and they even work under water (as we used to supply Birdman events too).  It was also extremely dangerous to keep these in a pocket as if friction ignited you would certainly have a serious burn and clothes would melt.  I saw this happen more than once where pockets were set on fire., hence why venues are supposed to insist smoke are carried in external pouches.

I personally believe (know) that they do cause breathing irritation and should not be used in confined spaces.  But I also know that they create a great atmosphere.  I do not believe that any health tests have ever been carried out on them at all, ever.  The UKPSF (Paintball sports federation)  did a massive safety job on the venues a few years back effectively threatening to ban any venues from the association that sold smokes to private individuals for home use, and those that were caught allowing private people to fill up paintball gas bottles. This would make insurance hard to get as most insurance companies insisted on UKPSF membership before they would issue cover.   However there are so many tournaments and casual staff that it is impossible to police effectively.  Our way was to only sell a minimum quantity and check that we were dealing with a bona fide entertainment company or venue.

I'm not sure if this helps anyone with understanding what smoke pyro is.  I know more than most and have seen thousands of these used.  I also sold many tens of thousands of them and heard all the stories back and replaced warranty items etc. .

Sometimes dangerous if handled badly but usually pretty safe if used sensibly and one at a time.  My conclusion is in the open air of a stadium no real harm done to health but really dangerous if thrown at people.  The chap who threw it onto the pitch probably put it in the right place

ps. I am no longer involved in the business of selling these or any other combat gaming products.

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MrBibs said:

I was fairly near to the bloke who was asked to leave for throwing the flare onto the pitch.  From what I saw the flare landed near to him and he then threw it away and it landed on the pitch.

He was involved in a long and heated discussion with a steward then at half time 3 or 4 police and a number of stewards came up to him and asked him to leave.  He didn't bring the flare into the ground and was unlucky from what I saw that the flare landed near him, and as a result I assume he'll be banned.

Will the fans responsible for the flares be forth coming to back up this fella?

I suspect that I know the answer to this one but hey... it adds to the atmosphere.

[Guest]

Of course, nothing can go wrong and it's all perfectly safe because some OTIB posters say so.

http://www.facepyrofacts.co.uk

As pointed out by spoons, just get on with it but don't complain about it if you get caught. Of course your mates will show solidarity and not attend matches because you've been banned, they'll no doubt help you pay your fine and if you are sent down, visit you. At the end of the day... it will all have been worth it just to create some atmosphere. Good luck.

[Up The City!]

11 hours ago, NickJ said:

Was anybody's day actually ruined by colored smoke?

First off before I go on let me say visually they are stunning. 

However a quick google search will show you many examples of people having their day ruined by coloured smoke.

During our harbourside celebrations i was attending with my children, one of them was 6 months old. Some complete **** let one off near us and someone kicked it under my childs buggy. We spent all night in hospital due to breathing difficulties. Try to picture it in your head, a 6 month old child hooked upto all these machines because of some coloured smoke.

Every time my child now gets ill it means a trip to the hospital as he struggles to breath. I can ensure you there is nothing fun about seeing your child go blue cos of some coloured smoke.

My day and my childs life was certainly ruined by some coloured smoke.

10 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Banned and prosecuted? Come on Mark

I'd slap them with a criminal damage charge also. We spent over a million installing that pitch plus continue to invest in it with top notch maintenance. If you owned something that cost a million pounds and someone came along and burned it would you really not want them to be prosecuted? 

10 hours ago, Ecko said:

So what happens when a player slide tackles and breaks the turf? 

They are not destroying the expensive plastic fibres are they?

9 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

So over the top. Sad really. Club should use a bit of common sense - first game of the season excitement, people been drinking all day - stuff happens.

Even if they club wanted to turn a blind eye (which quite rightly they wont) their hands are tied, it's the law.

Can you imagine the shit storm if City took a relaxed approach and someome got seriously injured? Imagine the bad press and the lawsuit.

If someone can come up with a safe alternative i fully support that, but until then these, in their current form present to many risks.

People have fought for many years to have a 'singing section' its stuff like this why we have faced obstacles by the club. People need to learn to act responsibly or City will shut the area down, Undoing years of good work.

[The Fat Controller]

9 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I doubt if there is a person in the country that hasn't broken some law or other, it does seem a bit OTT facing possible lifetime ban and time up the big house, just for a smoke canister,  there are people who have been done for acts of violence who have received lesser punishments.

I don't disagree with you Maesknoll, but as Spoons has said below, the rules are clear, why risk it? I cannot fathom why people think its okay to brazenly break the law in a place where CCTV is operating and then complain about the harshness of punishment they receive.

People have previously been punished harshly for this offence, so I don't see why it comes as such a surprise to some.

9 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Use some common sense. Punishment proportionate to the offense. Geez you dont go down for life for nicking a packet of crisps. 

The level of punishment is not new and well documented, perhaps they just shouldn't have done it if they weren't prepared to face the consequences? 

One example of previous punishment https://www.oufc.co.uk/news/2016/july/prison-sentence-for-flare-fan/

8 hours ago, Spoons said:

If you want to bring a flare into the ground then do it.. But don't moan when you get banned and possibly prosecuted as the rules are clear.

Pretty simple really? 

Agree.

[Dollymarie]

7 hours ago, tommy32 said:

I totally agree with what you're saying about the pitch and of course generally throwing flares. Can you please get in touch regarding the flare that ended up on the pitch; a man threw it on there cos it ended up at a kids feet - he shouldn't be punished for that. I witnessed the whole thing so please give me a PM

Mark.kelly@ashtongate.co.uk 

[MrBibs]

7 hours ago, tommy32 said:

I totally agree with what you're saying about the pitch and of course generally throwing flares. Can you please get in touch regarding the flare that ended up on the pitch; a man threw it on there cos it ended up at a kids feet - he shouldn't be punished for that. I witnessed the whole thing so please give me a PM

@Mkelly   Likewise, I would be happy to offer my version of events in support of the man who threw the flare onto the pitch. It looked to me like it was a man at the game with his son. He didn't take the flare into the ground or let it off. I have no idea what I would have done if a flare had landed right next to my daughter, not something I would have gone to the match expecting to happen.  If the guy is banned his son will surely suffer too.  Like Tommy I totally agree with what you're saying, but I think the wrong man (and his boy) will be punished if there is a long ban.

Thanks Dolly - I will use the email address that you provided

[Super]

Dont understand a few fans. They are told not to do something yet do it anyway. Its like dealing with a child. Pathetic.

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Up The City! said:

First off before I go on let me say visually they are stunning. 

However a quick google search will show you many examples of people having their day ruined by coloured smoke.

During our harbourside celebrations i was attending with my children, one of them was 6 months old. Some complete **** let one off near us and someone kicked it under my childs buggy. We spent all night in hospital due to breathing difficulties. Try to picture it in your head, a 6 month old child hooked upto all these machines because of some coloured smoke.

Every time my child now gets ill it means a trip to the hospital as he struggles to breath. I can ensure you there is nothing fun about seeing your child go blue cos of some coloured smoke.

My day and my childs life was certainly ruined by some coloured smoke.

 

Most obviously I do feel for your experience. However with all respect there are unlikely to be 6 month old babies in a football stadium.

@paulcityfan appears to be more qualified than most to comment, his conclusion is that handled responsibly they are safe and not a health hazard. Indeed, several people on this thread have stated they suffer from asthma and confirmed that the smoke did not adversely affect them.

Obviously there is the possibility that in the wrong hands they could be dangerous. But I'd like to think that even the more exuberant would not deliberately seek to use colored smoke as an indiscriminate weapon. Maybe, if the law allowed, a reasonable compromise would be to allow their use by approved individuals.

It would appear from this thread that a narrow majority are in favour of colored smoke, while the reasons given from those who object frankly appear to be along the lines of either self righteous "because its against the law", or a misguided belief that colored smoke  is harmful.

Perhaps the law and the views of the nanny state should be changed.

[P'head Red]

I don't really have an issue with the odd one or two going off during a match, but when the playing surface is damaged as a result then the person(s) responsible should face the necessary repercussions. When you think about how much the club has spent getting that pitch to the level it's at over the years, and what it's actually made of, the impact of a seemingly innocent flare can be very damaging. 

[JulieH]

2 hours ago, Up The City! said:

First off before I go on let me say visually they are stunning. 

However a quick google search will show you many examples of people having their day ruined by coloured smoke.

During our harbourside celebrations i was attending with my children, one of them was 6 months old. Some complete **** let one off near us and someone kicked it under my childs buggy. We spent all night in hospital due to breathing difficulties. Try to picture it in your head, a 6 month old child hooked upto all these machines because of some coloured smoke.

Every time my child now gets ill it means a trip to the hospital as he struggles to breath. I can ensure you there is nothing fun about seeing your child go blue cos of some coloured smoke.

My day and my childs life was certainly ruined by some coloured smoke.

I'd slap them with a criminal damage charge also. We spent over a million installing that pitch plus continue to invest in it with top notch maintenance. If you owned something that cost a million pounds and someone came along and burned it would you really not want them to be prosecuted? 

They are not destroying the expensive plastic fibres are they?

Even if they club wanted to turn a blind eye (which quite rightly they wont) their hands are tied, it's the law.

Can you imagine the shit storm if City took a relaxed approach and someome got seriously injured? Imagine the bad press and the lawsuit.

If someone can come up with a safe alternative i fully support that, but until then these, in their current form present to many risks.

People have fought for many years to have a 'singing section' its stuff like this why we have faced obstacles by the club. People need to learn to act responsibly or City will shut the area down, Undoing years of good work.

I can also add I was working that day .

a smoke grenade was held up high and the contents of it dropped onto a female beside the culprit burning her city top onto her skin, she was treated for burns by the medical team on duty.

the culprit was arrested and received a caution for criminal damage to the shirt and assault. This was agreed by the victim as the culprit was not known to the police.

these items burn at very high temperatures, I have seen several burn injuries on hands of offenders and the best advice I can give if one lands near you is to kick it away immediately, preferably somewhere safe, throwing it on the pitch is not a great option.

i will contact Bcfc and ensure the details of the witness is obtained to assist in our investigation of the grenade at Bcfc v Barnsley .