Smoke

[Dollymarie]

Just now, NickJ said:

Aah, we are getting to the stage in the thread where people make things up to suit their own agenda.

Julie has not said that people were hurt and needed treatment yesterday, she was talking about a deliberate act at a different event that she was at previously.

Here is what Julie said:

"I can also add I was working that day .

a smoke grenade was held up high and the contents of it dropped onto a female beside the culprit burning her city top onto her skin, she was treated for burns by the medical team on duty.

the culprit was arrested and received a caution for criminal damage to the shirt and assault. This was agreed by the victim as the culprit was not known to the police.

these items burn at very high temperatures, I have seen several burn injuries on hands of offenders and the best advice I can give if one lands near you is to kick it away immediately, preferably somewhere safe, throwing it on the pitch is not a great option.

i will contact Bcfc and ensure the details of the witness is obtained to assist in our investigation of the grenade at Bcfc v Barnsley".

ie, a non football related event where a person for whatever reason droppped the grenade on to a person.

No, Julie was talking about the day we had the promotion bus tour that ended at Cannons Marsh, when the players all got on the stage. That was the day the incident she mentioned happened. 

[RumRed]

2 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Aah, we are getting to the stage in the thread where people make things up to suit their own agenda.

Julie has not said that people were hurt and needed treatment yesterday, she was talking about a deliberate act at a different event that she was at previously.

Here is what Julie said:

"I can also add I was working that day .

a smoke grenade was held up high and the contents of it dropped onto a female beside the culprit burning her city top onto her skin, she was treated for burns by the medical team on duty.

the culprit was arrested and received a caution for criminal damage to the shirt and assault. This was agreed by the victim as the culprit was not known to the police.

these items burn at very high temperatures, I have seen several burn injuries on hands of offenders and the best advice I can give if one lands near you is to kick it away immediately, preferably somewhere safe, throwing it on the pitch is not a great option.

i will contact Bcfc and ensure the details of the witness is obtained to assist in our investigation of the grenade at Bcfc v Barnsley".

ie, a non football related event where a person for whatever reason droppped the grenade on to a person.

Where does it say it was a deliberate act?

 

[richwwtk]

1 minute ago, NickJ said:

Aah, we are getting to the stage in the thread where people make things up to suit their own agenda.

Julie has not said that people were hurt and needed treatment yesterday, she was talking about a deliberate act at a different event that she was at previously.

Here is what Julie said:

"I can also add I was working that day .

a smoke grenade was held up high and the contents of it dropped onto a female beside the culprit burning her city top onto her skin, she was treated for burns by the medical team on duty.

the culprit was arrested and received a caution for criminal damage to the shirt and assault. This was agreed by the victim as the culprit was not known to the police.

these items burn at very high temperatures, I have seen several burn injuries on hands of offenders and the best advice I can give if one lands near you is to kick it away immediately, preferably somewhere safe, throwing it on the pitch is not a great option.

i will contact Bcfc and ensure the details of the witness is obtained to assist in our investigation of the grenade at Bcfc v Barnsley".

ie, a non football related event where a person for whatever reason droppped the grenade on to a person.

Apologies, she was indeed referring to a different day and I misread it.

Still a good example of the problems that these things can cause, especially in areas crowded with people. You cannot rely on everyone being sensible with them, there are plenty of idiots around, wherever you go.

[NickJ]

Just now, Dollymarie said:

No, Julie was talking about the day we had the promotion bus tour that ended at Cannons Marsh, when the players all got on the stage. That was the day the incident she mentioned happened. 

OK, but it was not yesterday as was stated by @richwwtk

And furthermore the incident she described sounds like either deliberate or at best reckless. No reason the smoke cannot be used if responsibly, which is why I suggest in a previous post that one possible compromise - if the law allowed - would be use by authorized persons.

[RumRed]

There is only one real option if we are honest, the rules will need to be changed and any smoke will have to be club sponsored and take place in designated areas by either club employees or trained and registered fans who have responsibility.

Im sure many will say that it is health and safety gone mad but I can't see another option.

If reports are true about yesterday it may turn out that a fan could be banned because some idiot lobbed one of these things, spooked a kid and he got rid of it onto the pitch, not cool by the instigator.

Stuff like this doesn't help with the campaign for safe standing either, so until it is legal just stop it.

[richwwtk]

Just now, NickJ said:

which is why I suggest in a previous post that one possible compromise - if the law allowed - would be use by authorized persons.

A possibility, but I suspect that these people would need a (for example) 10 yard clear area around them and that people would then complain it was all too sanitised which is how things like that have to be these days, like it or not.

If the club are allowing a specific activity to take place, they have to make damn  well sure that there is no risk to anybody, or the risk of lawsuits in the event of an accident is just too high.

[NickJ]

4 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

Apologies, she was indeed referring to a different day and I misread it.

Still a good example of the problems that these things can cause, especially in areas crowded with people. You cannot rely on everyone being sensible with them, there are plenty of idiots around, wherever you go.

There are plenty of idiots on the roads in charge of potentially far more dangerous weapons than colored smoke, and the way that works is the idiots are  able to drive dangerously until they are caught and then fined/banned/imprisoned.

ie driving is not illegal and there is no presumption that a driver will act irresponsibly until they actually have done so.

[RumRed]

1 minute ago, NickJ said:

There are plenty of idiots on the roads in charge of potentially far more dangerous weapons than colored smoke, and the way that works is the idiots are  able to drive dangerously until they are caught and then fined/banned/imprisoned.

ie driving is not illegal and there is no presumption that a driver will act irresponsibly until they actually have done so.

You're tying yourself in knots here, pyros are illegal within grounds intent has nothing to do with it.

[BobBobSuperBob]

My thoughts

Personally I love the smoke in terms of atmosphere

As far as I can see the situation is a doomed cycle though

Firstly it's illegal (Due to Bradford ? And IIRC correctly a Welsh Fan killed by a firework in Millenium Stadium) and can be quite heavily dealt with at the courts

So those who like the smoke and have access to it , with CCTV and stewards / police about arnt likely to hang on to it too long 

So , very fe are prepared to handle it properly ,  they then tend to throw it , causing potential safety issues and incidents like we saw yesterday

Unless they change the law it's forever going to be a self perpetuating series of incidents and doomed , unless many are prepared to take a ban and criminal conviction

IIRC the offence / charge sounds horrific 'Taking an explosive substance into a designated stadium' (Or similar)

For those prepared to take that risk, bear in mind if you want to travel in the future you are likely to find a real problem with a conviction like that (For example you would have no chance of ever getting in the States for a holiday)

[Dave]

1 minute ago, RumRed said:

You're tying yourself in knots here, pyros are illegal within grounds intent has nothing to do with it.

If this continues and the Club are told to shut parts of the ground, I am imagine there will be a lot of disgruntled supporters on here. 

I thought it was an area to stand and sing your support.

[NickJ]

2 minutes ago, RumRed said:

You're tying yourself in knots here, pyros are illegal within grounds intent has nothing to do with it.

The point I am making is that IMO there is no reason why they need to be completely illegal.

 

 

[NickJ]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

So those who like the smoke and have access to it , with CCTV and stewards / police about arnt likely to hang on to it too long 

So , very fe are prepared to handle it properly ,  they then tend to throw it , causing potential safety issues and incidents like we saw yesterday

Unless they change the law it's forever going to be a self perpetuating series of incidents and doomed , unless many are prepared to take a ban and criminal conviction

 

Very good point mate and exactly the one, sort of, I am trying to make.

If the law was changed to allow responsible use, no reason IMO why they could not be used safely in stadiums.

[RumRed]

1 minute ago, Dave said:

If this continues and the Club are told to shut parts of the ground, I am imagine there will be a lot of disgruntled supporters on here. 

I thought it was an area to stand and sing your support.

What concerns me is the number of posters stating they love it but aren't willing to do it themselves because of the obvious consequences.  I'm sure if @Tuggin over Tomlin's kid got banned and a criminal record, hence forfeiting certain careers and travel options,  after reading the positive comments on here without said kid understanding the consequences he'd be ******* livid.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, NickJ said:

Very good point mate and exactly the one, sort of, I am trying to make.

If the law was changed to allow responsible use, no reason IMO why they could not be used safely in stadiums.

I get what you were saying Nick

'Authorised smoke users'  & done in a controlled way

That would work but can't ever see the authorities even considering it

As I said , I think the smoke looks great 

But it's just not going to happen so it's the cycle as I've described above

[RumRed]

Just to make clear I have no issue with the smoke per se and it does look good, but at what cost in risk of injury and people getting criminal records? 

If you want to make a stand on something in life then I'm not sure pyros are where you want to put your efforts, unless you campaign for it to be done in an agreed way.

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 minutes ago, Dave said:

If this continues and the Club are told to shut parts of the ground, I am imagine there will be a lot of disgruntled supporters on here. 

I thought it was an area to stand and sing your support.

This is a point I am surprised hasn`t been raised much in this debate. A lot of people have devoted a lot of time and effort into getting an unreserved, relaxed approach to standing going at AG and from what I saw yesterday it will only continue to grow and get better.

If things like this keep happening however, what do those doing it seriously think the club will do?

Enjoy your fun if you want but don`t complain when you are made to sit in your designated seats as a result and the singing section is no more.

[RumRed]

9 minutes ago, NickJ said:

The point I am making is that IMO there is no reason why they need to be completely illegal.

 

 

I think we agree however letting them off when illegal isn't going to convince the powers that be is it?  Just another stick to beat football supporters with.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I get what you were saying Nick

'Authorised smoke users'  & done in a controlled way

That would work but can't ever see the authorities even considering it

As I said , I think the smoke looks great 

But it's just not going to happen so it's the cycle as I've described above

I love the smell that wafted across in to the Lansdown Stand.

I have no other opinion.

[hinsleburg]

I haven't read the entire thread, but surely a big issue from this is how they got in in the first place? I'm asthmatic however the coloured smoke doesn't affect me, but if the club are towing such a hard line surely greater effort should be made to stop people bringing them in to start with? 

I was surprised to enter the ground yesterday without being stopped or patted down at all? 

With everything going on it seems a rather lax approach to security? 

[JamesBCFC]

18 hours ago, NickJ said:

Yes I can see that would merit a ban and prosecution. 

While the club is on the offensive for these vandals, could it also for example identify the culprit that  wasted £3 million on Tomlin and sold him on for next to nothing,  now that really offends me.

Every day, most posters on here  - including the killjoys - drive cars, knowing that they cause pollution and hence are harmful to others. They also know they could be involved in an accident where a child is killed. That is an unavoidable statistical fact, and yet every day you still take that risk.

Puts into perspective the remote possibility that somebody could be caused serious harm from colored smoke.

We sold Tomlin for the best part of 3 million and spent slightly over 2 million on him

In other words youve decided to chat utter nonsense to try and force a way to have a dig at the manager, the day after a convincing win.

How ******* depressing is your life?

[Nibor]

Perhaps the best way to stop the belters bringing in fireworks is for the club to organise something safe.

[Negan]

1 hour ago, RumRed said:

What concerns me is the number of posters stating they love it but aren't willing to do it themselves because of the obvious consequences.  I'm sure if @Tuggin over Tomlin's kid got banned and a criminal record, hence forfeiting certain careers and travel options,  after reading the positive comments on here without said kid understanding the consequences he'd be ******* livid.

No Pyro no future. 

 

You redzahhhhhh! 

 

P.s I don't have kids, far to young for that nonsense. 

[walsh left foot]

First game of a new season, a positive 3-1 win and OTIB has 5 pages about a smoke bomb. Brilliant.

[Spoons]

For or against smoke grenades or flares... Five pages on this just takes away from a good opening weekend result.

Shame really. 

[Up The City!]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Except I haven't ignored anything he said.

He actually says that  they do cause breathing irritation and should not be used in confined spaces.

I would  interpret "breathing irritation" as a minor short term effect.

A confined space I would assume  means an enclosed space where the smoke cannot escape.

His conclusion is key:

"Sometimes dangerous if handled badly but usually pretty safe if used sensibly and one at a time.  My conclusion is in the open air of a stadium no real harm done to health but really dangerous if thrown at people".

Clearly they will be dangerous if thrown at people, but so far as I know that did not happen; the whole idea is to create fun and add to the atmosphere.

As for the comment that it could go off in your pocket, I didn't miss that, it's just that I am assuming responsible use.

@Bob Bob Super Bob has posted a video on this thread, of all the dozens if not hundreds featured, I cannot see a single person in breathing difficulty or appearing to be the slightest bit distressed.

 

My child has lived with long term effects of these.

For a normal healthy adult, ok they are unlikely to suffer many effects apart from the risk of being burned, but at a football game there is such a wide range of different people of different ages and different health conditions so it's impossible to say these would be safe for all.

As i said previously, im all for these if someone can provide a safe alternative. Unfortunately all the risks out weigh the positives in their current form.

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Aah, we are getting to the stage in the thread where people make things up to suit their own agenda.

Julie has not said that people were hurt and needed treatment yesterday, she was talking about a deliberate act at a different event that she was at previously.

Here is what Julie said:

"I can also add I was working that day .

a smoke grenade was held up high and the contents of it dropped onto a female beside the culprit burning her city top onto her skin, she was treated for burns by the medical team on duty.

the culprit was arrested and received a caution for criminal damage to the shirt and assault. This was agreed by the victim as the culprit was not known to the police.

these items burn at very high temperatures, I have seen several burn injuries on hands of offenders and the best advice I can give if one lands near you is to kick it away immediately, preferably somewhere safe, throwing it on the pitch is not a great option.

i will contact Bcfc and ensure the details of the witness is obtained to assist in our investigation of the grenade at Bcfc v Barnsley".

ie, a non football related event where a person for whatever reason droppped the grenade on to a person.

Didn't sound like it was a deliberate incident? Sounded like someone was holding one in the air and it accidentally burned someone, scalding their City shirt onto their skin. Id say that also ruined what should have been a memorable day.

[CotswoldRed]

Placing the law to one side, perception of danger is always emphasised to suit the agenda. 

Is a scalding hot cup of tea not considered a danger to the child sat down in the row in front? No - because nobody wants tea banned from the ground. I'd wager the risk is just as high. 

[Lew-T]

This thread is so British.

[Guest]

A few times a year the club wheels out pyros on to the pitch, they are used in all cup finals. To say they don't add to the atmosphere widely is silly, people wouldn't spend for them at these events otherwise. 

A safe alternative, albeit a bit nanny state and very "USA", but I don't see why the club couldn't install coloured vapour dispensing machines in one block - like the singing section - and operate centrally (and sparingly). 

[Izza]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4286546/Orlando-City-open-stadium-safe-standing-flares.html

 

Is there an option that does not require heat to ignite them, maybe a compressesd air system alternative?

Could there be special poles maybe 10 feet tall with a remote device to set the flares off?

They do add to the visual spectacle and I like them but not at the expense of safety so please can we find an alternative way of using them that everyone is happy with?

Not a fan of the smell but it's not for long and does look great :-)

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, Nibor said:

Perhaps the best way to stop the belters bringing in fireworks is for the club to organise something safe.

 

2 hours ago, Izza said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4286546/Orlando-City-open-stadium-safe-standing-flares.html

 

Is there an option that does not require heat to ignite them, maybe a compressesd air system alternative?

Could there be special poles maybe 10 feet tall with a remote device to set the flares off?

They do add to the visual spectacle and I like them but not at the expense of safety so please can we find an alternative way of using them that everyone is happy with?

Not a fan of the smell but it's not for long and does look great :-)

Sadly, I expect current legislation would stop the club from doing so. Maybe someone could look into it?

I'd also like to add my voice to those who say a lifetime ban is over-draconian for this offence, unless someone deliberately threw a pyrotechnic at others.