Midfield

[Super]

Is this where the problem is? Sounded like it was non existent last night, new formation or do we need to bring players in?. Smith and Pack may look good against lesser teams but they will struggle against top teams in this league.

[Robbored]

The midfield was getting overrun at times last night which is why GoN came on for Diedhiou. That proved to be a smart move

[tinman85]

Of course it is a problem. It has been for years. We don't dominate midfield battles. Particularly away from home. In desperate need of a playmaker. Smith and Pack will battle but score goals and create chances they will not. Big issue. 

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

Of course it is a problem. It has been for years. We don't dominate midfield battles. Particularly away from home. In desperate need of a playmaker. Smith and Pack will battle but score goals and create chances they will not. Big issue. 

11 goals in 4 games. As always - and has been the case for two seasons and now into a third - we can't keep the ball out of our net. Offensive players are not where the solution lies, it's painfully obvious. 

[LondonBristolian]

My view is it is a case of formation rather than personnel. We are playing a system that, as we saw against Barnsley and Plymouth and first half against Birmingham, works really well in specific condition such as if the pitch, if we are the stronger side and if we can get on the ball but - the second half against Brum and yesterday shows it leaves us exposed when we cannot get on the ball or against technical teams or wider pitches.

There were a number of problems last night but they broadly came down to the midfield being overran and the full backs defending narrowly allowing their wide players to freely roam the flanks, which was also the case a lot last season.

Ultimately we had six defensive players struggling with numbers and four attacking players who could not get on the ball.

I think a lot of this would be fixed by replacing an attaching player with a holding midfielder or additional centre back to strengthen the midfield and allow the full backs to defend wider, with two attacking players either side of striker.

[headhunter]

Midfield - we didn't have one. I was there last night it was embarrassing the way we were outclassed in that department.

Brownhill and Patterson were passengers out wide and Smith & Pack are too similar IMHO.

We have 4 left backs [Bryan, Golborne, Magnússon & Kelly] but no such cover in midfield where, for me, O'Neill is just stealing a wage at the tailend of his career 

[UREDS_91]

We should have done exactly what Brum did to us, brought on another CM. This should have been done at HT or just after. Then we may have had more of a chance. In the end it worked out.... Just. 

[red'tili'mdead]

To be frank it was embarrassing at times last night. We were totally overrun and looked a L1 team playing the big boys.

 Brownhill and particularly Patterson do not offer anything like enough when we were on the back foot  or as an easy outlet in possesion - Smith and Pack were continually swamped.

Johnson inability to identify what was happening until very, very late in the game and bring O'Neill on (the obv option that we were all screaming for)was pretty frightening. Make no mistake we were thrashed 2 - 2 last night and Brentford should have been out of sight by the time changes were made. This was a formation issue not quality IMHO.

On a more positive note I thought our defence was outstanding. Fielding,Baker and Pisano were absolute quality.

[spudski]

Our midfield is fine, for a mid table Championship Club, playing in an expansive offensive mode.

However...if we come under extreme pressure down the middle, and we let in crosses from the flanks, then imo, we don't have the personnel good enough to deal with it.

If you are going to win the header from the cross, you have to win the first ball out. Do Smith and Pack do that? Are Smith and Pack good enough to break down play and get that foot in? It's all well and good hustling the opposition, and keeping close to them...but at some point you have to get your foot in or stop the cross...lots of hustling, very little end product.

We play a very dangerous game letting so many crosses come in and not winning the first ball out of the 18 yard box. LJ speaks of the 'danger zone'...he's well aware of where the danger lies...so why let the ball come into that zone so often?

I've yet to work that one out.

[tinman85]

16 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

11 goals in 4 games. As always - and has been the case for two seasons and now into a third - we can't keep the ball out of our net. Offensive players are not where the solution lies, it's painfully obvious. 

5 against a league one reserve team. 

[Wilse]

Unfortunately Marlon Pack is not a championship player and I'm slowly coming to that view about Korey Smith. 

Football matches tend to be won in central midfield and whilst those two players are our midfield pairing we will keep getting outplayed by other teams. 

[Shtanley]

Despite last night's pretty poor display I'm still fully comfortable with Pack and Smith as our midfield 2. Most of the joy they found was down the flanks due to Paterson's lack of covering support.

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

5 against a league one reserve team. 

6 in 3 in the league is still good going. Blindingly obvious that our problem isnt chance creation, just as it wasn't last season. Too easy to score against and have been since we were promoted. To keep throwing offensive players at it is not the solution. City fans always obsessed about goals scored. If we lost 11-10 people would say we need to buy a playmaker. 

[Spud55]

15 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

My view is it is a case of formation rather than personnel. We are playing a system that, as we saw against Barnsley and Plymouth and first half against Birmingham, works really well in specific condition such as if the pitch, if we are the stronger side and if we can get on the ball but - the second half against Brum and yesterday shows it leaves us exposed when we cannot get on the ball or against technical teams or wider pitches.

There were a number of problems last night but they broadly came down to the midfield being overran and the full backs defending narrowly allowing their wide players to freely roam the flanks, which was also the case a lot last season.

Ultimately we had six defensive players struggling with numbers and four attacking players who could not get on the ball.

I think a lot of this would be fixed by replacing an attaching player with a holding midfielder or additional centre back to strengthen the midfield and allow the full backs to defend wider, with two attacking players either side of striker.

I'm not sure that we need another holding midfielder, we already have 2 and frankly along with the 4 defenders they really shouldn't be getting over-run in the way that they are, so that makes me think that at least one of Pack / Smith have to be replaced, neither of them close down effectively and they are all to prone to giving the ball away as we are trying to move out of defence.

I actually think part of the problem is that we don't have an outlet when we are under pressure, when we are defending we end up with 11 men behind the ball, (i wasn't there so can only comment on the comentary) but numerous times I heard that all 10 of Brentfords players were well inside our Half, yet we managed approximately 0 dangerous counter attacks, any chances we had to break seemed to go to Patterson which was almost always followed by "and now Brentford have the ball" similar with Brownhill or we just lumped it up field back to them.

We have no pace in the side so there is no danger for the opposition to just push up and squeeze us and force us further and further back, to where we just give the ball away every time we have it, have some pace on the pitch and you can just when you get the ball back ping it over the top for that player to run onto, that forces the opposition defence to stay deeper meaning you have more space, but with the frighting lack of pace we have we are either expecting Deidhou to hold the ball up against 3 or more players as he has no support or we just don't have anyone up there as he drops deeper to either help out in defence or to try and get the ball without immediate being surrounded by players.  I am hoping that Elliason is this player, but I haven't seen him yet.

[Monkeh]

30 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

Of course it is a problem. It has been for years. We don't dominate midfield battles. Particularly away from home. In desperate need of a playmaker. Smith and Pack will battle but score goals and create chances they will not. Big issue. 

we don't need a play maker we need a defensive midfielder who can break up play, we haven't had that since Marvin Elliot, We've scored 11 in 4

[Creg]

1 minute ago, Shtanley said:

Despite last night's pretty poor display I'm still fully comfortable with Pack and Smith as our midfield 2. Most of the joy they found was down the flanks due to Paterson's lack of covering support.

I wouldn't put it all on Pato (although, I agree, he was anonymous for most of the game) - Pack and Smith's inability to either win balls in the air or keep possession were our main downfall last night. We're distinctly lacking a bruiser to break up play in the middle of the park. 

[ollywhyte]

We should be looking at Rohan Ince who is available

[the frampton balti]

The problem was standing off and playing too deep. you cant invite an attacking talented passing team like Brentford. 

If the defence was outstanding how come Frankie had to make so many fantastic stops!!!!!

when we pressed them we forced mistakes as they did us . We are an attacking passing team as are Brentford ,but for 80 minutes we allowed them to play to their strengths whilst we kept hoofing the ball to lightweight frontline(no offence to bobby but hes not got much chance in the air against your average championship centre back and daddio for some reason is failing to hold the ball or making poor passing decisions, needs time!) and conceding possession. that was lack of confidence.....

Frankies poor distribution is a result of pressure of the defence/midfield not making themselves available in our own half we should not be playing route one.....lack of confidence.

Reid and Fielding joint man of the match ...fantastic last night. I think the team as a whole lacks the fitness to play the pressing game for 90ms which would give us results. I think we will beat Millwall if we stick to what we do best ...Attack with pace... Expect a rollercoaster. 5-4

[Top Robin]

Brentford midfielders were so much more mobile than ours and really comfortable on the ball........ran rings round us.

[054123]

They played attacking forward football from the back.

We resorted to needless long ball so often.

I just find it so frustrating that we walked division 3 and in all that time since have made no real progress as our perpetual relegation battle bares out. Whilst we bring in new, it's only ever to tread water and never to seriously push for promotion, as I believe the owners would like.

I was widely criticised for this comment on another thread, but I'll make it again, imo we don't have a single player who a top 6 club would want to accommodate. That's not to say they are not alright players, but they are not going to push you on.

[tinman85]

20 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

we don't need a play maker we need a defensive midfielder who can break up play, we haven't had that since Marvin Elliot, We've scored 11 in 4

We do need a playmaker. We don't have one! 

[cidered abroad]

Let's get rid of the myth created by LJ about pitch width.

City now at 74 yards. Brentford at 73 yards. So similar not to make any difference.

[redysteadygo1]

Lots of talk about midfield not up to Championship class, which I agree with, and lots of crosses coming in from wide due to our narrow defending this seems to be causing extra problems with no Flint who I consider is our best option to deal with an aerial threat.

How many headed goals have we conceded so far, possibly 40% of goals scored against?

[Kingswoodactor]

This high tempo game seems to be having it positives and negatives at the moment.

The positive is that we are flying out of the traps early, pressing high up the pitch, hunting in packs and scoring early goals. I really thought that we competed well in Midfield for the first 15 minutes, but then it all seemed to fall apart quite quickly. 

Were we knackered? Not many teams have the players to play with that intensity for 60 mins let alone 90 mins, and it became clear halfway through the 1st half that we slowed right down and suddenly began to give Brentford's midfield far too much space and time on the ball. Players like Jota, Sawyers and Watkins will kill you. 

I see their Midfield as the template that we should be aiming for. All so comfortable on the ball, never really took more that 2 touches, always playing into feet and they made the pitch look so big with the way their wingers hugged the touchline and how dynamic their central midfield was. Sawyers was literally everywhere at times, what a showing from him last night.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

15 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

We do need a playmaker. We don't have one! 

Define 'playmaker'?

[Kingswoodactor]

5 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Lots of talk about midfield not up to Championship class, which I agree with, and lots of crosses coming in from wide due to our narrow defending this seems to be causing extra problems with no Flint who I consider is our best option to deal with an aerial threat.

How many headed goals have we conceded so far, possibly 40% of goals scored against?

Our full backs were tight to their wingers for the first 15 mins, then seemed to tire out due to chasing shadows for the rest of the game. Their midfield were running rings around us and pulling us completely out of shape. 

I watched on numerous occasions, Brentford making only 3-4 passes from defence through to their midfield/forwards before they were on the edge of our box! How?!!!!

[tinman85]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Define 'playmaker'?

A creative midfielder player who can score goals and regularly create chances. A driver in our midfield who can help us to dominate. Brentford have many as I said previously. Do you think Smith and Pack are good enough??

[Guest]

In my opinion we have on paper a good championship midfield. In reality they just don't work that well or compliment eachother that well. Individually all championship quality, collectively they are weak at this level.

I'd personally be picking one of Smith or Pack to keep and sell the other one. Could make arguments for each, and whilst I like him, I'd be looking for a different player than Pack. I think Korey is that touch harder to replace, and Pack's game if I was being incredibly harsh I'd say is rather one dimensional; more often functional rather than influential.

[Monkeh]

31 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

We do need a playmaker. We don't have one! 

Paterson, Reid, Brownhill, all midfielders all create stuff all got on the scoresheet so far this season

[Spud55]

4 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

A creative midfielder player who can score goals and regularly create chances. A driver in our midfield who can help us to dominate. Brentford have many as I said previously. Do you think Smith and Pack are good enough??

As others have said, I don't believe that chance creation and goals are an issue for us, and really were not issues last season.  I agree with the rest of your assessment however, we need a player in the Xabi Alonso mould, someone who gets the ball and just sits on it, plays the simple pass when necessary but has the ability to ping a ball through when it's on.  Pack can fill that role to an extent, but not consistently enough, and his decision making is suspect, he will frequently go for the Hollywood ball when it really isn't on and often gives the ball away when we are breaking out of defence which is arguably the most dangerous time to give the ball away.

Korey Smith is a player who is busy, but other than being busy he really doesn't add enough at the moment, if he can get back to his best then maybe, but he hasn't been there for a long while now and at some point it has to be accepted that he may not ever be.

I want a midfielder who sits deep, and i don't really care if they don't create a single chance, as long as they can put their foot on the ball and keep and it be the sort of player who finds space and is always available for a team mate to offload the ball to.

All too often when under pressure we are trying to play out and give it away and we don't have anyone who can just stop and relieve the pressure by keeping possession, Hegeler has the ability to do that, but Johnson doesn't think he has the mobility, but pair him with Smith who is all mobility then maybe he can be the player to just slow everything down and keep the ball when we really need it.