What does Lansdown see that most of us can't ?

[Northern Red]

36 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

That's what I don't understand though.

I thought the whole point was to decouple the manager/head coach or whatever from running of the entire club at much as possible, so you could remove one and you wouldn't be rebuilding from scratch, which has happened in the past and stops any long term progression.

If we're apparently doing that but one specific man is so integral to the entire project he cannot be replaced it seems to me we've either incorrectly implemented the whole philosophy, or are merely paying lip service to it.

I predict that if/when LJ is sacked or leaves for pastures new(stop sniggering at the back), this 'philosophy' will be quietly put to one side for something completely different. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened under SL's tenure. 

[BCFC Rich]

This question has been put in many forms since before our terrible run last season - what they do they see in him, I wish just one person could tell me why LJ..., Tell me why we should believe in him I genuinely want to know. etc etc etc. The problem is the question gets asked and you don't agree with the reasons so the question gets asked again and again and again. It's honestly not difficult to see the other side of the argument, you don't have to agree with it to understand what the viewpoint is.

To try and answer it in this current guise.  I think SL sees a long-term project. He (and most of us)  wants a good mid-table side to move forward from. I think he has picked a less experienced manager he believes in and thinks he will develop into the kind of manager we would not be able to attract once he is at his peak (much as with players). You don't have to agree that LJ has that potential to understand this idea. 

The other points being made here are LJ is incompetent, doesn't know what he is doing, is clueless, we should have waited till he was more experienced, I don't want him learning on the job here. etc etc etc. If you take LJ's record with us he averages just under 1.4 points a game. If you stretch his average points across a season its 61 points. His overall record is a high mid table team. That is a fact at the moment. You can say yes but that terrible run, yes but the style of play last game etc etc etc. And there are plenty of valid reasons to want him gone,  they are not hard to see, even though I don't agree with them. But there are plenty of reasons to keep him too. Again they are not actually hard to see even if you don't agree with them. 

Ultimately, for me, if you feel he is incompetent, doesn't know what he is doing, is clueless, we should have waited till he was more experienced, I don't want him learning on the job here. etc etc etc. And he is still producing a high mid-table points hall image what he can do when he gets it together.

[Olé]

9 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

This question has been put in many forms since before our terrible run last season - what they do they see in him, I wish just one person could tell me why LJ..., Tell me why we should believe in him I genuinely want to know. etc etc etc

I used to be in that position until it became abundantly clear "why LJ". He very closely fulfils the criteria of the owner of the football club. Now whether you or I agree with those criteria is another matter entirely, but the fact is LJ is the owners ideal manager and unless you want to buy the club off him, LJ will continue to be the right man.

[SStandUp]

Everyone's acting like we're bottom of the league? We're mid table. Where we belong. We're a small fish in this league now. Yeh we've spent a decent amount of money the past 2 years. But I bet it's nowhere the amount others have spent in the last 4-5 years who are probably still benefiting from this.

I honestly don't know what City fans expect? Automatic promotion, play offs? Mid table? 

Surly after the last couple seasons and with such a young squad, mid table max has to be the aim right now 

[BobBobSuperBob]

24 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Everyone's acting like we're bottom of the league? We're mid table. Where we belong. We're a small fish in this league now. Yeh we've spent a decent amount of money the past 2 years. But I bet it's nowhere the amount others have spent in the last 4-5 years who are probably still benefiting from this.

I honestly don't know what City fans expect? Automatic promotion, play offs? Mid table? 

Surly after the last couple seasons and with such a young squad, mid table max has to be the aim right now 

And repeat

and repeat

and repeat

[Nibor]

What I did find quite concerning about SteveL's recent interview was the line about him not remembering a time when everyone was pulling in the same direction as much as they are now.  The problem with that is that it's at odds with the mumblings that come out of those close to the players.  It's an open secret that some of them have next to no respect for LJ and that's at the root of things like Flint's departure.  For me that disparity paints a picture of the owner having so insulated himself with corporate yes men that he doesn't really get any insight into the most important part of the club - the first team squad. 

It's easy to dismiss rumours but what few facts we do have don't lend themselves to support the idea that all is well.  We see senior players with experience get sidelined or alienated too often - Matthews, Hegeler, O'Neill, Wilbraham and seemingly now Flint wanting to leave within a few months of signing a new long term deal.  When I listen to LJ talk I'm often bemused by the odd pseudo-intellectual things he says and I can't imagine how they come over to football players.  I'd imagine they think it's just waffle most of the time.  It'd be nice to be wrong but I think what we're seeing is the impact of picking someone under experienced to do an important job for the wrong reasons and then doubling down on it.  

Hey if we win a few games it will all quieten down again and sure I understand the point of view that he's in the job and we should support him, but the question I'd ask those who think he's the right person for the job is what, other than 45 minutes against Barnsley and another 45 against Birmingham makes you think so?  If the post were vacant would you hire him?  Would anybody really have picked a manager with his record if he'd never played for the club?  I can't think many would answer yes to either of those.

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Nibor said:

What I did find quite concerning about SteveL's recent interview was the line about him not remembering a time when everyone was pulling in the same direction as much as they are now.  The problem with that is that it's at odds with the mumblings that come out of those close to the players.  It's an open secret that some of them have next to no respect for LJ and that's at the root of things like Flint's departure.  For me that disparity paints a picture of the owner having so insulated himself with corporate yes men that he doesn't really get any insight into the most important part of the club - the first team squad. 

It's easy to dismiss rumours but what few facts we do have don't lend themselves to support the idea that all is well.  We see senior players with experience get sidelined or alienated too often - Matthews, Hegeler, O'Neill, Wilbraham and seemingly now Flint wanting to leave within a few months of signing a new long term deal.  When I listen to LJ talk I'm often bemused by the odd pseudo-intellectual things he says and I can't imagine how they come over to football players.  I'd imagine they think it's just waffle most of the time.  It'd be nice to be wrong but I think what we're seeing is the impact of picking someone under experienced to do an important job for the wrong reasons and then doubling down on it.  

Hey if we win a few games it will all quieten down again and sure I understand the point of view that he's in the job and we should support him, but the question I'd ask those who think he's the right person for the job is what, other than 45 minutes against Barnsley and another 45 against Birmingham makes you think so?  If the post were vacant would you hire him?  Would anybody really have picked a manager with his record if he'd never played for the club?  I can't think many would answer yes to either of those.

Hi mate...SL was referring to everyone running the Club, not so much the players.

Flint wouldn't have signed a new contract if he felt so badly about LJ.

City don't have anymore problems with players, than any other club. You can't keep them all happy in a squad when only 11 start on match day.

You only need one player to feel disgruntled...ie Tomlin...to start shit stirring in the dressing room. It's no secret the majority of players weren't fussed when he left.

As I said in another post...LJ doesn't speak to the players in the same way as he does to the media.

It's been spoken about so much as to the reason LJ is manager...I really can't grasp how people can't see the reason now.

As for it 'quietening down'...it's only a few on here being very vocal over and over again, about how much they dislike LJ and finding reasons why he shouldn't be here.

Whether he's the right man, is neither here or there. It's because SL wants him here, because he's agreed to manage in the way he wants. It's as simple as that.

[Nibor]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

Hi mate...SL was referring to everyone running the Club, not so much the players.

Flint wouldn't have signed a new contract if he felt so badly about LJ.

City don't have anymore problems with players, than any other club. You can't keep them all happy in a squad when only 11 start on match day.

You only need one player to feel disgruntled...ie Tomlin...to start shit stirring in the dressing room. It's no secret the majority of players weren't fussed when he left.

As I said in another post...LJ doesn't speak to the players in the same way as he does to the media.

It's been spoken about so much as to the reason LJ is manager...I really can't grasp how people can't see the reason now.

As for it 'quietening down'...it's only a few on here being very vocal over and over again, about how much they dislike LJ and finding reasons why he shouldn't be here.

Whether he's the right man, is neither here or there. It's because SL wants him here, because he's agreed to manage in the way he wants. It's as simple as that.

Not sure I agree with that.  SL clearly has little insight into the squad but the impression he gave was that he was talking about everyone.

Flint may not have been so fed up when he signed, he may have assumed LJ would be gone soon anyway, and he may have assumed he was getting a whacking pay rise and could leave any time anyway.  There's little reason not to sign a bigger contract.

Happy to see a counter example but I don't think there are many clubs that bomb out expensive signings at the rate we have in the last few years.

Nobody is disputing why he's manager, that's obvious.  It's debating the merits of the view SL clearly holds.  At the moment I think he's plain wrong, again, and it's just about how long it will take him to realise.

And it's far from few people, IMO.  There are very few who actually think he's the right man for the job, perhaps a majority who think we're stuck with him anyway so we may as well shut up and a substantial minority who think he's got to go.  I waver between the latter two myself but as time drags on with no progress it only goes one way.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

I used to be in that position until it became abundantly clear "why LJ". He very closely fulfils the criteria of the owner of the football club. Now whether you or I agree with those criteria is another matter entirely, but the fact is LJ is the owners ideal manager and unless you want to buy the club off him, LJ will continue to be the right man.

Ain't that the truth too

[downendcity]

10 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

I would like to know how long is long.  Two decades, quarter of a century, how long?

To have a long term plan that has lasted a decade or so and has bounced backwards and forwards in that time seems a pretty faulty sort of plan to me.

Moreover, on the evidence, rather than the pr what exactly is the plan?  Five pillars, European football on a rather short timescale, keeping parity with the rugby, making Bristol Sport even larger ?  I am lost.

For the major part of SL's time as owner, we have lurched from one knee jerk reaction to another, with managers sacked after a run of poor results and a new manager bringing in a new coaching set up and different outlook and philosophy. This makes us little different from the majority of clubs at this level. At the same time we brought in far too many journey men at the end of their careers and looking for a decent pay day and because of us being seen as a footballing backwater we paid in order to get players here. When things went tits up we could;t shift those high paid players off the wage bill.

The plan we are now working to ( as I see it) is based on the club becoming financially self sufficient. This was somewhat forced upon SL because of the impact of football's financial rules, that limit how much an owner can plough into the club/team, no matter how much he is worth. One of the start points of that self sufficiency was the redevelopment of Ashton Gate, once plans for the brand new stadium at AV had to be shelved, as I think I am right in saying that financial rules do not restrict the amount that SL could invest in the stadium. However, that investment will then mean the stadium generating much greater revenues in the future and for the long term, firstly because the match day income will increase with higher attendances and also additional revenue streams, like corporate boxes. The stadium will also generate income on non match days because of the use of the stadium facilities for things like conferences.

At the same time, it seems that the club has devised a strategy for player recruitment by looking at young players with potential. The hope is that their potential will be realised and then benefit the team, but if we do see them then we would be looking to do so at a profit, not as an end in itself, but so the profit can then be used to further develop the team. The other part of the strategy is to develop the academy ( another area where SL can invest without too much restriction by financial rules) and develop our own players with the aim of more of them coming not the first team squad.

If all these plans were formed and put into action 15 years ago when SL took charge, then we would be right in asking how long it will take to come together, but the false dawns and disappointments of most of the last 15 years came about because we had no coherent long term plan and instead lurched from one option to another and going back to scratch with every new manager.

One of the main bones of contention with many fans is the head coach, and I can understand why this is the case, and in particular that he survived the awful run up to last Christmas. SL says that LJ's future was discussed at board level, but I admire Sl's balls in sticking by his head coach, when it would he been much easier to sack him and look for someone else, but this would have just been to continue the trend of the last 15 years, and we all know how that went! I think that SL has resolved that if his long term plan is to work, then it can't be ditched at the first sign of adversity, however my feeling is that I cannot see the plan working if we are relegated, so LJ's future is ever more dependant on avoiding a repeat of last season as I don't believe that SL will be so supportive of his head coach in similar circumstances.

Given all of this long winded diatribe,  how long is long enough? The only answer I can give is when we see tangible signs that it is working, and this brings me back to the slightly facetious comment in my previous post, in that many fans see immediate "success" as their measure that the long term plan is working. For what it's worth I think LJ needs to demonstrate over this season that there is real improvement on the pitch. There were signs of this at the start of the season, with the way we were playing, but we seem to have got bogged down in the last couple of games, which brings the naysayers out in droves , and understandably so, but after last season LJ's room for manoeuvre is more limited. I also think that this season we all want to see players really improving, but I think this can only happen if the team is improving both in performance and results, because it's tough performing at your best when scraping at the wrong end of the table.

We've already seen this season how wildly fans opinions change from game to game  and especially those fans who are are really anti LJ, and this is perhaps going to be the hardest element of achieving success, as many fabs patience gets thinner with every setback and no matter that SL is the one paying the bills, he must also know that it is not a good idea to alienate the fans base and sadly in SL he has someone that divides the fan base. LJ can unite fans by getting results and performance see all want to see. The only other way he will unite all fans is for results to be so dire that we all want the same thing and if that happens, I think Sl will want the same thing as well! 

 

 

[BCFC Rich]

38 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

LJ allows SL to indulge in behaviour that he wants as owner of the club. So as such. LJ is an ideal puppet, and will remain so until SL is  unable to defend the impossible. It  is only a matter of when not if. 

BCFC could attract many many top quality coaches, who have all of the attributes required to move this club forward in the way I believe we all desire. Wagner and Hughton took similar clubs forward , and visibly forward in a brief period of time. it is the total lack of any visible progress that undermines the blind belief in LJ, despite signing over 25 players, spending millions, changing all the coaches for his mates, it is blindingly obvious he is not up to the job. Yet some also feel he is still not accountable for any performance . He needed have shown distinct and clear evidence, he, not the numerous players he signs, had made progress. He had inadequate preparation to coach/manage in this league, and shows no sign of making the rapid progress he says his players are incapable of. He needs to go away, and learn his trade. 

The club has ambitions to join the top flight, so they say, yet has employed 3 coaches who have no experience above L1 and even worse no experience of building a winning side. If SL had true ambitions for the club, it does not mean he has to spend mindless millions on players, but he does need to ensure we employ the very best coaches and scouts in the business. That is so far from being the case, that it makes the current scenario a charade , and a very sad one at that. Spend 5 million on a centre forward yet peanuts on the team that is needed to guide, improve, and identify talent. 

11

Everything you say is based on you saying LJ is not up to the job. And, as that is your belief, the conclusions you draw have some logic to them. Although the two managers you mention both had little experience at this level before being given a chance and succeeding. Yes, they did that quicker than LJ, but as I said in the previous post - LJ's record is actually pretty good since he came to us (unless you have expected above mid-table or think that one full season is enough time). I would point out  that the only way to get experience in this division is to be given a chance in this division as both Hughton and Wagner were. 

[GrahamC]

9 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

Although the two managers you mention both had little experience at this level before being given a chance and succeeding. Yes, they did that quicker than LJ, but as I said in the previous post - LJ's record is actually pretty good since he came to us (unless you have expected above mid-table or think that one full season is enough time). I would point out  that the only way to get experience in this division is to be given a chance in this division as both Hughton and Wagner were. 

Chris Hughton had "little experience at this level" before managing Brighton?

Apart from his spells at Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich, presumably?

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Chris Hughton had "little experience at this level" before managing Brighton?

Apart from his spells at Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich, presumably?

No the Chris Hughton who was U21 coach at Spurs , then reserve team coach , then first team coach , all at Tottenham , serving under TEN managers over 14 years 

Then first team coach at Newcastle , then assistant manager .......

All before he got his chance to manage at Newcastle

Learnt his trade I'd suggest

[KeepUpLino]

2 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

Everyone's acting like we're bottom of the league? We're mid table. Where we belong. We're a small fish in this league now. Yeh we've spent a decent amount of money the past 2 years. But I bet it's nowhere the amount others have spent in the last 4-5 years who are probably still benefiting from this.

I honestly don't know what City fans expect? Automatic promotion, play offs? Mid table? 

Surly after the last couple seasons and with such a young squad, mid table max has to be the aim right now 

God this post is so depressing... 

[reddogkev]

Jesus Christ the OTIB LJ bashing has started early this season.  And the small minority of SL haters are starting to reappear... sad.

 

[BCFC Rich]

24 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Chris Hughton had "little experience at this level" before managing Brighton?

Apart from his spells at Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich, presumably?

When he was at Newcastle you idiot!

[BCFC Rich]

16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

No the Chris Hughton who was U21 coach at Spurs , then reserve team coach , then first team coach , all at Tottenham , serving under TEN managers over 14 years 

Then first team coach at Newcastle , then assistant manager .......

All before he got his chance to manage at Newcastle

Learnt his trade I'd suggest

Always like your posts Bob, and that's a fair analysis of Hughton (who is a great manager). The point I was countering was about the need to have experience managing in the championship. And to be fair, LJ did have experience as a Manager at two other clubs before ours which is more experience as a manager than Hughton had. 

The point was I trying to make was at some point someone took a chance on him and Wagner despite not having a track record at this level. Plenty of coaches and assistants make terrible managers. We have taken a chance on LJ developing and (in my opinion) his record is actually pretty good. 

[AppyDAZE]

9 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Jesus Christ the OTIB LJ bashing has started early this season.  And the small minority of SL haters are starting to reappear... sad.

 

It hasn't started early, it is a continuation from last season. I would never use personal insults against the guy, I like the person, i know he is City through and through and i really believe he believes in himself ...

BUT   Tammy aside, not at all sure SL is getting anywhere near his money's worth from Lee's dealings

Does this make me a basher?   (and don't be rude)

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

Always like your posts Bob, and that's a fair analysis of Hughton (who is a great manager). The point I was countering was about the need to have experience managing in the championship. And to be fair, LJ did have experience as a Manager at two other clubs before ours which is more experience as a manager than Hughton had. 

The point was I trying to make was at some point someone took a chance on him and Wagner despite not having a track record at this level. Plenty of coaches and assistants make terrible managers. We have taken a chance on LJ developing and (in my opinion) his record is actually pretty good. 

understand what you're saying but Chris Hughton wasn't exactly a wild punt - he'd had 15+ years experience coaching and managing through the levels at top clubs on top of a Top level and International playing career

Wagner is a better example of a left field call - he did play International football mind 

All opinions but the idea of a manager learning / developing at this level is a (I'll be polite ! ).  'brave' call IMHO

Brutal place to learn on the job

[AppyDAZE]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

understand what you're saying but Chris Hughton wasn't exactly a wild punt - he'd had 15+ years experience coaching and managing through the levels at top clubs on top of a Top level and International playing career

Wagner is a better example of a left field call

 

Only, even ?

[RumRed]

15 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Jesus Christ the OTIB LJ bashing has started early this season.  And the small minority of SL haters are starting to reappear... sad.

 

Anyone that starts using Trumpism's obviously has no argument.

[RumRed]

2 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

Everyone's acting like we're bottom of the league? We're mid table. Where we belong. We're a small fish in this league now. Yeh we've spent a decent amount of money the past 2 years. But I bet it's nowhere the amount others have spent in the last 4-5 years who are probably still benefiting from this.

I honestly don't know what City fans expect? Automatic promotion, play offs? Mid table? 

Surly after the last couple seasons and with such a young squad, mid table max has to be the aim right now 

The acceptance of mediocrity is truly astounding.

[AppyDAZE]

5 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Anyone that starts using Trumpism's obviously has no argument.

Would love to have Kim Jong Un's take on LJ

[Nibor]

1 minute ago, AppyDAZE said:

Would love to have Kim Jong Un's take on LJ

Once he has developed enough range...

[RumRed]

2 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Would love to have Kim Jong Un's take on LJ

He'd me more of a Flyers fan I guess.

[BCFC Rich]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

understand what you're saying but Chris Hughton wasn't exactly a wild punt - he'd had 15+ years experience coaching and managing through the levels at top clubs on top of a Top level and International playing career

Wagner is a better example of a left field call

 

1

Those were the two names put forward. Wagner definitely better illustrates my point but an experienced assistant/coach  doesn't always make a good manger off the top of my head Brian Kidd would be an example - successful coach/assistant terrible manager. But I take your point.

[BobBobSuperBob]

31 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

It hasn't started early, it is a continuation from last season. I would never use personal insults against the guy, I like the person, i know he is City through and through and i really believe he believes in himself ...

BUT   Tammy aside, not at all sure SL is getting anywhere near his money's worth from Lee's dealings

Does this make me a basher?   (and don't be rude)

There are some who don't bother reading the content of , what IMHO been some very interesting debates on the forum in the last week or so and label anything not cheering wildly and stating all is good as 'LJ Bashing'

They don't look deeper and past the current table or the average points return

And those saying LJ is here t stay because that's what SL wants , that's fair enough , I think we all get that ,but it's not going to stop discussion and debate about where we are

or shall we just spend all our time picking what side we'd play next time out , our favourite City side with players with ten letters , or guess the next attendance ,

that may keep some happy with the forum content 

 

[AppyDAZE]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

There are some who don't bother reading the content of , what IMHO been some very interesting debates on the forum in the last week or so and label anything not cheering wildly and stating all is good as 'Bashing'

They don't look deeper and past the current table or the average points return

And those saying LJ is here t stay because that's what SL wants , that's fair enough , I think we all get that ,but it's not going to stop discussion and debate about where we are

or shall we just spend all our time picking what side we'd play next time out , our favourite City side with players with ten letters , or guess the next attendance ,

that may keep some happy with the forum content 

 

Still directing the band, Bob.. can i play 2nd fiddle?

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

Those were the two names put forward. Wagner definitely better illustrates my point but an experienced assistant/coach  doesn't always make a good manger off the top of my head Brian Kidd would be an example - successful coach/assistant terrible manager. But I take your point.

I'd love to know how / why Huddersfield identified Wagner

A reasonable playing career and represented USA and Klops reserve team manager but still a real left field call , and it appears a brilliant one

Tbink it boils down to why / whether LJ was appointed because he had showed real managerial / coaching promise or for wider reasons

[RumRed]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

There are some who don't bother reading the content of , what IMHO been some very interesting debates on the forum in the last week or so and label anything not cheering wildly and stating all is good as 'Bashing'

They don't look deeper and past the current table or the average points return

And those saying LJ is here t stay because that's what SL wants , that's fair enough , I think we all get that ,but it's not going to stop discussion and debate about where we are

or shall we just spend all our time picking what side we'd play next time out , our favourite City side with players with ten letters , or guess the next attendance ,

that may keep some happy with the forum content 

 

 

It's like watching Star Trek, none of the main characters are going to take a fall, only the guys in (ironically) red shirts. At the end of the series we'll be in the same place but with the 'talent' demanding more money.