What does Lansdown see that most of us can't ?

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Totally agree, we should be paying top dollar for the very best coaches and scouts. It is the one area we can compete , and where we can seriously take the club forward. We cannot afford the top players, but we can afford some top quality coaches, at all levels. Otherwise the strategy that is talked about (that as I say seems bang on) is just talk. Why not try to become the best academy of training for coaches in the game. I like the German model very much, and how they revamped their approach by focusing on the coaching set up. We could be very innovative at BCFC in this area, and it is also where SL has more than enough funds to do it. 

 

Totally agree BW.

Funnily it was something we were talking about at the game on Saturday.

With all those £millions and not being affected by FFP...why not try to get the best coaching staff, Scouts and backroom staff available?

It's the one aspect of the game where if you have the money, you can excel at.

I guess the question is...regardless of the money being paid, would those staff want to come and work for BCFC? I should imagine there are.

2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

That's true, but equally what strikes me is that out here amongst the support base quite a lot of people know quite a lot about the way professional sport works, the sports media, business in general, people management, and indeed what goes on at Ashton Gate. Some of the more intelligent and successful people I know are City fans, hugely successful in...off the top of my head...business, finance, sports administration, journalism, international politics. All of the people I'm thinking of have followed the club for years, many have met the Lansdowns publicly and privately, know about the profile of the club, its management, its players. Their opinions are always with listening to.

Some of the posters on here are in that bracket. Not everyone is shooting from the hip. But equally not everyone is sharing all they know. Which is what makes reading the more considered observations on OTIB so worth while! The trick of course is spotting the gems amongst the dross. I reckon this thread contains more than a few grains of truth.

Totally...However, Imo, anything of real depth is never fully shared on here by those, for obvious reasons. Much by PM or away from an open forum. But like you say...grains of truth do appear.

[Kid in the Riot]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I've said this before, but I do thing that City fans should count themselves lucky that they have a Chairman who is prepared to put his money where his mouth is and clearly loves the club.  You don't have to look far to see what other models are out there.

How lucky should we consider ourselves to be? 15 years since Lansdown took the club over and we've spent roughly half that time in L1 and half of it in the Championship. Footballing decisions and particularly managerial appointments have mostly been unsuccessful. The two notable exceptions being GJ and SC. Then there was Tinnion, Millen, Coppell, McInnes, SOD... No manager he has hired has been 'poached' by another club and gone onto better things. In fact bar McInnes, stints as managers for those other 4 at BCFC have pretty much ended their careers at managers!

You don't have to go far to see what other models are out there, couple of hours down the road at Southampton or Swansea, or even Watford. These clubs have had success we can only dream about and IMO are currently light years away from. The latter two are clubs with a similar sized infrastructure and fan base to ours, maybe even smaller. Then there are other clubs who have had owners who we've mocked and felt sorry for the fans who have still managed to reach the Premier League: Portsmouth, Blackpool, Hull City and Cardiff ******* City etc

Yes, SL is a good owner who will ensure the best interest of the club are looked after. It is very unlikely we would be plunged into administration under him. However, because of the way he runs the club I do honestly believe he is part of why we continue to underachieve. Does he have that bit of flair and footballing acumen to take us onto the level? I have seen little to suggest he can in 15 years.

[MarkRed!]

Some good posts on here. People seem to forget that SL is a billionaire. If he wanted to get to the PL he could do it very easily and simply "buy it" by getting on board experienced manager and players of PL class. He aint going to do that and we are closer to League One than the PL. Other than Coppell we have never looked to appoint a manager of real class and how many of our ex managers have gone on to better things. It is arguable that none of them have progressed. McInnes will be mentioned but for me, he is doing well in a tinpot league but he is not winning it. Beating Celtic would be the challenge for him. Coppell saw what was going on and ran a mile. Other commentators have alluded to it as well in cryptic messages. We should not be grateful to SL. He has a choice about whether to invest in a football club. Whilst there are some really dodgy owners out there (which no fan would want) is SL really the best. His record is not that great is it and he is not exactly giving his money away for free - it will be tied up in loans to the club that will be repayable at some point. In fact, does Bristol City FC actually own the ground. I suspect not.  I would like to see a German style ownership model with fans buying into the club and having a real input into the club. I think that would make a difference rather than this misguided strategy that holds the club back. There are not many clubs out there where the owner's son is a senior figure at the football club. Look at the leadership chain at the club, where are the winners. There are none. 

We will muddle along with LJ following some new club approach (it is actually an old strategy of buying young players that was followed under SOD).... eventually it will fizzle out and we will go back to League One :(. LJ will do his best to follow the diktat of the owner but there is no evidence so far that he is likely to be successful. In fact, quite the opposite, he could be harming his own career. 

[Fiale]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Good Points BW.

I agree about the coaching and scouting.

However...what Coach of better experience and quality, is going to come here if you are only paying a wage, the equivalent of a Trolley Dolly on GWR. Serving snacks and drinks in first class, or coaching a football team, that is made up of £Million players...and doing it for a similar wage.

It boils my piss when I see how much staff like Scouts and Assistant and development Coach's are paid....compared to players and agents.

I've spoken about 'infrastructures' at clubs for years....get that right, and things start to work. Doing it on a shoe string...what's the point? How are you going to attract better quality staff with the experience you want if you pay peanuts?

 

 

 

There was a thread last season talking about names if we were to change managers - I said I would like to see a Frank de Boer type person. Not to manage the team but to take over the footballing staff and facilities, to basically run the academy but also have it include the first team for coaching etc. Then we go back to SL's idea that the setup is independent of the head coach/manager who takes charge of first team selection, matches, tactics. I have no idea how much a De Boer type figure would costs, but surely your Moores, Engvalls, Magnusons, Hinds etc would prosper more and the youth and development squad increase in value would probably offset the costs of a experienced seen it/done it coach.

 

Maybe in the future if we move to a purpose made academy facility it may happen, but for now it just seems so short sighted.

[spudski]

29 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Some good posts on here. People seem to forget that SL is a billionaire. If he wanted to get to the PL he could do it very easily and simply "buy it" by getting on board experienced manager and players of PL class. He aint going to do that and we are closer to League One than the PL. Other than Coppell we have never looked to appoint a manager of real class and how many of our ex managers have gone on to better things. It is arguable that none of them have progressed. McInnes will be mentioned but for me, he is doing well in a tinpot league but he is not winning it. Beating Celtic would be the challenge for him. Coppell saw what was going on and ran a mile. Other commentators have alluded to it as well in cryptic messages. We should not be grateful to SL. He has a choice about whether to invest in a football club. Whilst there are some really dodgy owners out there (which no fan would want) is SL really the best. His record is not that great is it and he is not exactly giving his money away for free - it will be tied up in loans to the club that will be repayable at some point. In fact, does Bristol City FC actually own the ground. I suspect not.  I would like to see a German style ownership model with fans buying into the club and having a real input into the club. I think that would make a difference rather than this misguided strategy that holds the club back. There are not many clubs out there where the owner's son is a senior figure at the football club. Look at the leadership chain at the club, where are the winners. There are none. 

We will muddle along with LJ following some new club approach (it is actually an old strategy of buying young players that was followed under SOD).... eventually it will fizzle out and we will go back to League One :(. LJ will do his best to follow the diktat of the owner but there is no evidence so far that he is likely to be successful. In fact, quite the opposite, he could be harming his own career. 

I agree with that.

I will give SL credit though.

Like you say, and he admits, he's made a balls up in the past, throwing money short term and employing less experienced managers for the dream he wants. Tbh...the management and coaching levels have reflected the positions we have found ourselves in. If he wants bigger and better...then perhaps he should look at people that have experience in doing that, either from here or abroad.

For all his failings in the past...he has at least changed tact, like you say, not new to football, but pretty much new to the club. It did start under SoD, and a little under Delboy.

If he didn't have his past failings and history...perhaps fans would be more lenient with this 'project' and give it a bit more time.

Who knows.

[Kid in the Riot]

13 minutes ago, Fiale said:

There was a thread last season talking about names if we were to change managers - I said I would like to see a Frank de Boer type person. Not to manage the team but to take over the footballing staff and facilities, to basically run the academy but also have it include the first team for coaching etc. Then we go back to SL's idea that the setup is independent of the head coach/manager who takes charge of first team selection, matches, tactics. I have no idea how much a De Boer type figure would costs, but surely your Moores, Engvalls, Magnusons, Hinds etc would prosper more and the youth and development squad increase in value would probably offset the costs of a experienced seen it/done it coach.

Maybe in the future if we move to a purpose made academy facility it may happen, but for now it just seems so short sighted.

The last two appointments (LJ and SC) were 'friends of the board' and SL seems to be getting increasingly insular and stubborn in his overseeing of the club. Therefore I would put money on a frontrunner being another friend of his Mark Robins (currently at Cov) or possibly a highly regarded coach who MA knows well like Michael Appleton. Given all the foreign players coming in a foreign coach also wouldn't be a surprise. As much as I may not think LJ is the right man for the job, I have little faith in his replacement being any better given SL/the board's track record on managerial appointments. A depressing outlook but can only go on the evidence we've seen so far!

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

How lucky should we consider ourselves to be? 15 years since Lansdown took the club over and we've spent roughly half that time in L1 and half of it in the Championship. Footballing decisions and particularly managerial appointments have mostly been unsuccessful. The two notable exceptions being GJ and SC. Then there was Tinnion, Millen, Coppell, McInnes, SOD... No manager he has hired has been 'poached' by another club and gone onto better things. In fact bar McInnes, stints as managers for those other 4 at BCFC have pretty much ended their careers at managers!

You don't have to go far to see what other models are out there, couple of hours down the road at Southampton or Swansea, or even Watford. These clubs have had success we can only dream about and IMO are currently light years away from. The latter two are clubs with a similar sized infrastructure and fan base to ours, maybe even smaller. Then there are other clubs who have had owners who we've mocked and felt sorry for the fans who have still managed to reach the Premier League: Portsmouth, Blackpool, Hull City and Cardiff ******* City etc

Yes, SL is a good owner who will ensure the best interest of the club are looked after. It is very unlikely we would be plunged into administration under him. However, because of the way he runs the club I do honestly believe he is part of why we continue to underachieve. Does he have that bit of flair and footballing acumen to take us onto the level? I have seen little to suggest he can in 15 years.

This is our 9th Championship season in the last 11 seasons. Judged against his predecessors (post 1980; and between 1911 and 1975) that is good going. For us. Credit to Steve for this.

This might be the legacy of Steve Lansdown (should we fail to reach the PL): he modernised AG and put off the inevitable relegation from the second tier for longer than most that went before him. Oh, and he spent more money on Bristol City than us.

It could be better, it could be worse. 

[Kid in the Riot]

6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

This is our 9th Championship season in the last 11 seasons. Judged against his predecessors (post 1980; and between 1911 and 1975) that is good going. For us. Credit to Steve for this.

This might be the legacy of Steve Lansdown (should we fail to reach the PL): he modernised AG and put off the inevitable relegation from the second tier for longer than most that went before him. Oh, and he spent more money on Bristol City than us.

It could be better, it could be worse. 

That is true. It is also true that in his 15 seasons at the helm we've spent 7 seasons in L1 and 8 in the Championship, hence my comment about half and half. It is also true to say that in 5 of those 8 seasons in the Championship we've struggled near the bottom. He may have done just about ok in the context of our history, though we've never had a wealthier owner, and so that is also context. But it's the examples of the many, many clubs that have surpassed us and reached the top flight in double quick time (often smaller clubs with less resources than us) which suggests he has under achieved. I therefore cannot be one of the, admittedly dwindling, number of City fans who see him as some kind of saviour whose decision-making should not be questioned.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, MarkRed! said:

Some good posts on here. People seem to forget that SL is a billionaire. If he wanted to get to the PL he could do it very easily and simply "buy it" by getting on board experienced manager and players of PL class. He aint going to do that and we are closer to League One than the PL. Other than Coppell we have never looked to appoint a manager of real class and how many of our ex managers have gone on to better things. It is arguable that none of them have progressed. McInnes will be mentioned but for me, he is doing well in a tinpot league but he is not winning it. Beating Celtic would be the challenge for him. Coppell saw what was going on and ran a mile. Other commentators have alluded to it as well in cryptic messages. We should not be grateful to SL. He has a choice about whether to invest in a football club. Whilst there are some really dodgy owners out there (which no fan would want) is SL really the best. His record is not that great is it and he is not exactly giving his money away for free - it will be tied up in loans to the club that will be repayable at some point. In fact, does Bristol City FC actually own the ground. I suspect not.  I would like to see a German style ownership model with fans buying into the club and having a real input into the club. I think that would make a difference rather than this misguided strategy that holds the club back. There are not many clubs out there where the owner's son is a senior figure at the football club. Look at the leadership chain at the club, where are the winners. There are none. 

We will muddle along with LJ following some new club approach (it is actually an old strategy of buying young players that was followed under SOD).... eventually it will fizzle out and we will go back to League One :(. LJ will do his best to follow the diktat of the owner but there is no evidence so far that he is likely to be successful. In fact, quite the opposite, he could be harming his own career. 

Good post

Ss for the highlighted bit - I was thinking the same last night

The infamous five pillars which under SOD had us heading towards relegation

So we brought SC in who built a side ,0f good players , oblivious to the five pillars (Though ironically I don't think any of his signings lost us money - well in profit actually)

Because we were looking in the mire SL appears to have allowed this and as a massive bonus not only did SC andvthis approach turn things around but we romped the League in style , and (Quire rightly) SL seemed to enjoy that

So , we then stall SC doing this at the next level , ultimately get rid of SC and install LJ. With a reforming of the five pillars approach , which had previously failed at a lower level.......

 

Some great posts on here about the staffing / coaching / scouting 

@spudski  @Kid in the Riot @Fiale  @MarkRed!  @Redexile

Absolutely the way for us to go - Spend on good scouts and coaches and we will find ourselves making massive savings in our transfer expenditure 

How many decent annual wage packets could we find from avoiding a single £million pound  flop

[Major Isewater]

On 20/08/2017 at 09:07, AppyDAZE said:

Living is easy with eyes closed

Misunderstanding all you see.

[Jack Dawe]

4 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

It is an interesting thread, but the trouble with many threads at the moment is that a theory is put forward which, through a process rather like chinese whispers, becomes fact.  

 

Are you saying this is only true of those being critical of LJ/SL? Or that it occurs on both sides of the LJ for/against ding-dong? I believe the latter to be the case. For example, those insisting that LJ had a "young squad," and that he "lost" Kodjia, amongst others.

4 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

 

I've said this before, but I do thing that City fans should count themselves lucky that they have a Chairman who is prepared to put his money where his mouth is and clearly loves the club.  You don't have to look far to see what other models are out there.

 

I reckon most do think us lucky to have an owner like SL. Those that are critical are perhaps guilty of that common human weakness for not appreciating what they have until it's gone. But we don't know what we would be like if Steve sold up and moved on; we could be worse off, we could be doing better. Or broadly the same. Nobody knows.

One thing I would say about Steve is that his game-changing wealth and readiness to invest it into the club/team has not yet resulted in any game-changing transformation in the fortunes of the first team. No PL football, no cup runs to speak of (although LJ tried to with last year's league cup "success"!), no going beyond what we were before Steve got involved, what we have been for all but nine years of our modest history. And no Europa League yet, either.......

He did come close in 2008, and was maybe just short on a bit of luck. It cannot be down to luck though, if we get to 20 years of SL, and we have not had one season of top class football in that time. Not now that we have a modern ground and 19k crowds and are not operating with one hand tied behind our back.

Steve needs to deliver something a bit more exciting. 

4 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

 

What we need is to give this project time, and see where it goes.  Of course if it all went whatsits up we'd need to reconsider but that has happened yet and there is very sign, in my view, that things can and will get better.  I've been really excited by what's going on this season and not at all downhearted about the last couple of results.  Early season results are often variable and confusing, but it's what is happening in  October and November that counts.

Please don't call it this. Don't encourage them.

[bearded_red]

I must say I don't see this view that we've been particularly unstable compared to other clubs and this desire to stick with a largely under performing manager should be celebrated because it is bringing much needed stability. Have we had any more managers than the average over the last ten years? We have had the same owner and fairly cosy boardroom now for a lot longer than most. Due to our seemingly inherent desire to do little more than spend our entire existence bobbing between the top half of the third tier and and the bottom half of the second tier it could be argued we are a lot more stable than most.

Anyway I can't help but feel that in football although stability may be something you ideally achieve it isn't the ultimate aim above everything else. On the last day of the 2007/08 season Leicester played away at Stoke. That match signalled Stoke's promotion to the Premier League and Leicester's relegation to the third tier. Since that day Leicester have sacked Ian Holloway (well played), appointed Nigel Pearson, won League 1, lost Nigel Pearson to Hull, appointed Paulo Sousa, sacked him after less than three months, appointed Sven, sacked Sven, re-appointed Nigel Pearson, won the Championship, sacked Nigel Pearson, appointed Claudio Ranieri, won the Premier League, sacked Ranieri, appointed Craig Shakespeare, reached a Champions League quarter-final. By contrast Stoke have gone 12th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 13th, 9th, 9th, 9th and 13th. At some point in the middle swapping Pulis for Hughes. I'm not saying Stoke's achievement in establishing themselves as a Premier League club isn't a good one, but I don't think Leicester fans would swap.. At the very top level, and it isn't overly relevant to us, but compare Chelsea's success to Arsenal's over the last 13 seasons..

I must say as well that I thought we had actually move with the times and the Head Coach was a role that could be changed (maybe even having some success and seeing him poached by another club!) and the change to bring in a new one doesn't lead to mass changes. He doesn't bring a load of his own staff in that then go with him. The way the club operates isn't a one man vision who runs the entire affair. 

I absolutely agree with someone higher up than the guy that picks the team deciding on the 'philosophy' of a club. The characteristics you want from the team. The way you operate in the transfer market. The Head Coach has to buy into this of course, but he is ultimately dispensible when the team is failing on the pitch. Swansea when going up through the league to establish themselves in the Premier League had a certain way of playing. That didn't end when a manager got sacked or left for better things, the next manager appreciated that playing like that was part of his job. The famous database Southampton have of prospective players when they lose their star names didn't vanish when Pochettino goes, he and the managers after him work under that system. Les Reed's role at Southampton may have been slightly different to Ashton's here, but essentially the coaches there were working under the framework Reed puts in place. The stability comes from higher up than the head coach.

Sacking a manager and replacing him doesn't involve ripping it up and starting again. You replace him with someone that understands and appreciates how the club operates, but hopefully produces more points on a Saturday afternoon.

Appreciating all this, why is it that our two assistant coaches have in one case worked with Johnson previously and in the other played with him and is a close friend? Are these two going to stay when Johnson gets sacked? Are they really the two best men for the jobs they do? Now whether your opinion on Steve Cotterill and Gary Johnson is the highest or lowest you read on here, I think we would all agree that both are fairly autocratric. You can imagine that both could be incredibly difficult. Yet both of them, when it comes to their assistant, worked with someone that was already at the club and then stayed on after they left. Now we call form an opinion, based on little, about how good a coach John Pemberton and Keith Millen were, but they were employed by the club to do the roles they did and both managers worked with them, they didn't have to replace them with people they were more friendly with. Bearing in mind again that the way the club should operate now Lee Johnson is a Head Coach. Why has he quite clearly been allowed such input on which coaches he works with. Is that aspiring to be the absolute best we can be, or is it just a all a bit cosy.

Now fine, I get the argument that some managers wouldn't buy into someone above them having a say in how they want their team to play or not allowing them complete control in the transfer market. But in the modern game, most fully accept it as it happens at pretty much every club and some actually much prefer concentrating on coaching the players anyway. For example when we sold Baldock to Brighton they had just employed Sami Hyypia as manager who had been sacked as Bayer Leverkusen manager. Do you think that transfer happened because Hyypia as Leverkusen manager had been really impressed with Baldock's goals in the third tier of English Football? Of course not. The Head Coach says what types of player he wants and the the scouting  and analysis team produce a list of players. Again, sacking the head coach doesn't produce mass instability. They are another cog in the wheel.

Huddersfield and Reading had very similar seasons to us 2 years ago. One team employed a USA international who was coaching at Borussia Dortmund, the other a Dutch international who was coaching at Ajax. We went for someone that just happened to play for us, be the son of of a previous manager and family friend of the owner. Now I'm not actually saying he should be ruled out because of those facts, but to the outsider which clubs have shown more ambition? Which clubs have looked as far as they possibly can for the best candidate? Should either of them be poached by another club at some stage, or even sacked, they will bring in a replacement that works under the same model. The club won't just be out on it's feet because the Head Coach has had to change.

I think we all know what it is about Lee Johnson that got him the job and kept him his job last season. You can hardly be surprised when some people think it stinks. The manager is a friend of the owner, the coaches are friends of the manager. Not exactly ruthless ambition is it.

 

[Frenchay Red]

47 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

This is our 9th Championship season in the last 11 seasons. Judged against his predecessors (post 1980; and between 1911 and 1975) that is good going. For us. Credit to Steve for this.

This might be the legacy of Steve Lansdown (should we fail to reach the PL): he modernised AG and put off the inevitable relegation from the second tier for longer than most that went before him. Oh, and he spent more money on Bristol City than us.

It could be better, it could be worse. 

The legacy of SL is his son. I am surprised that in this thread, which is putting SL under the microspcope, no-one seems to be considering just how much JL's involvement has had an effect on things happening under this manager/head coach and, for that matter, the previous one.

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

I must say I don't see this view that we've been particularly unstable compared to other clubs and this desire to stick with a largely under performing manager should be celebrated because it is bringing much needed stability. Have we had any more managers than the average over the last ten years? We have had the same owner and fairly cosy boardroom now for a lot longer than most. Due to our seemingly inherent desire to do little more than spend our entire existence bobbing between the top half of the third tier and and the bottom half of the second tier it could be argued we are a lot more stable than most.......

 ....... I think we all know what it is about Lee Johnson that got him the job and kept him his job last season. You can hardly be surprised when some people think it stinks. The manager is a friend of the owner, the coaches are friends of the manager. Not exactly ruthless ambition is it.

 

Worth more than a 'like'

Great post / piece , really really well composed written , and reasoned , and full of good points - really good read and thought provoking

Hat doffed 

[jayjay]

Bearded-red, it shows that I put "rubbish" by your comment. How that happened I don't know but my apologies, I was trying to put "liked". Well argued points, excellent.

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, jayjay said:

Bearded-red, it shows that I put "rubbish" by your comment. How that happened I don't know but my apologies, I was trying to put "liked". Well argued points, excellent.

Same as me I'd guess , big thumbs and a touch screen combo

(You can go back and remove or change your like / rubbish / snake tick btw)

[Fiale]

19 minutes ago, jayjay said:

Bearded-red, it shows that I put "rubbish" by your comment. How that happened I don't know but my apologies, I was trying to put "liked". Well argued points, excellent.

 

just hover over it and you can remove your rubbish option and reclick a like etc

[Kid in the Riot]

16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Same as me I'd guess , big thumbs and a touch screen combo

(You can go back and remove or change your like / rubbish / snake tick btw)

For the record I have narrow, agile fingers and therefore every rubbish/snake icon I give people is very much deliberate

[Jack Dawe]

I don't think @Tim S spins the 45s matchdays now (?) but if I was working for "The Project" and wanted to consolidate my position within it, I would be playing Massive Attack's "Be Thankful For What You've Got (you ungrateful ****ers)" from their top, top selling 1991 debut '33 "Blue Lines."

[MarkRed!]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Good post

Ss for the highlighted bit - I was thinking the same last night

The infamous five pillars which under SOD had us heading towards relegation

So we brought SC in who built a side ,0f good players , oblivious to the five pillars (Though ironically I don't think any of his signings lost us money - well in profit actually)

Because we were looking in the mire SL appears to have allowed this and as a massive bonus not only did SC andvthis approach turn things around but we romped the League in style , and (Quire rightly) SL seemed to enjoy that

So , we then stall SC doing this at the next level , ultimately get rid of SC and install LJ. With a reforming of the five pillars approach , which had previously failed at a lower level.......

 

Some great posts on here about the staffing / coaching / scouting 

@spudski  @Kid in the Riot @Fiale  @MarkRed!  @Redexile

Absolutely the way for us to go - Spend on good scouts and coaches and we will find ourselves making massive savings in our transfer expenditure 

How many decent annual wage packets could we find from avoiding a single £million pound  flop

There is no doubt in my mind that there was a power struggle at the beginning of our first season back in the Championship. SC was like a bear who had found Goldilocks and her friends in his bed asleep having cleaned him out of porridge.... He was plainly attacking SL through the media and vice versa. He clearly had a blue print which SL did not agree with. The club had to agree to it before that as we were desperate and on the brink of relegation to League Two.  The 5 pillars disappeared without trace. 

SL did not give SC the backing he has given LJ.  Why? Who knows but LJ will work to his structure and philosophy. Can you imagine JL giving SC the teamsheet.... he would have chinned him. I think SC thought he would "win" the battle because of the success he had just had. He was wrong. This is why he has been paid up until very recently and was "still on our books" so to speak.  I would love to hear what SC has to say about it all. 

This 5 pillars is sound but it needs the structure to do it, the manager, the backroom staff and the scouting network. Spending £ on untested coaches and managers is not likely to lead to a return and there is no guarantee that we can unearth the gems to make £. In fact, the biggest sale we have had was Kodjia who was signed and scouted by SC. The more I think about it we have used a scatter gun approach to player recruitment and arguably have not materially changed the quality of the first team.  Complete waste of energy and £ for one man's ideological dream....

[exAtyeoMax]

Didn't we have a decent scout until recently, when he left due to 'professional differences'?

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Didn't we have a decent scout until recently, when he left due to 'professional differences'?

Yes, Des Taylor

IIRC SL indicated there was a difference in ideas / the way forward / he wasn't a 'fit'

 

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lee-johnson-reveals-how-bristol-25435

 

We don't have a head of recruitment / Chief scout atm unless they've sneaked one in quietly - Mervyn Day  was doing some work for us on a temporary basis

And Keith Burt was in role when SC was here and we signed JK and the L1 title winning side

[exAtyeoMax]

16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes, Des Taylor

IIRC SL indicated there was a difference in ideas / the way forward / he wasn't a 'fit'

 

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lee-johnson-reveals-how-bristol-25435

 

We don't have a head of recruitment / Chief scout atm unless they've sneaked one in quietly - Mervyn Day  was doing some work for us on a temporary basis

And Keith Burt was in role when SC was here and we signed JK and the L1 title winning side

What I was trying to say is that we have employed some decent people, but for some weird reason it didn't work out… why is that?

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

What I was trying to say is that we have employed some decent people, but for some weird reason it didn't work out… why is that?

Don't know Max

i know zilch about eithers  situation

@Kid in the Riot ,  @Harry  , @redcherryberry Or @spudski are the ones likely to have some idea if anyone does

What surprises me is that , why we kept it so quiet , and bearing in mind this happened late January why we havnt / didn't replace Taylor , especially in preparation for the Summers recruitment

[sh1t_ref_again]

The OP question was what does SL see that we don't, and I suspect it's not to panic every time the market goes up or down and to have a long term strategy, I guess that's what made him a very rich man.

Now on to LJ, I have never been in favour of him and gutted when SC went (think he created his own demise), but only a few games in to a new season when we have played some good and some awful football, its to early to panic but if we ended on a run like last year, I do expect SL to react and dismiss LJ.

I am very much in the how lucky we are to have SL & JL owning and running the club, which appears to be trying to put us on a sound long term foundation. I am sure it would be very easy for SL to chuck much more money at it with the hope it comes off, but to me that sets us up more for disaster if it fails.

Whilst it is easy to look at some of the success stories or rival clubs, managers players etc, for each of these there're many more failures.

It is worth looking closer to home at the local league clubs that were only a few years ago were in the same division as us - Gas, Swindle, Plymouth, Baardiff, only Baadiff have had success but at what cost with the uncertainty of the current owner, I would not want to trade places (except league position of cardiff) with any of these teams

[CyderInACan]

53 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Didn't we have a decent scout until recently, when he left due to 'professional differences'?

I think he was here for even less time than Emad Moetab 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, CyderInACan said:

I think he was here for even less time than Emad Moetab 

did he beat Copp's record though?

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Frenchay Red said:

The legacy of SL is his son. I am surprised that in this thread, which is putting SL under the microspcope, no-one seems to be considering just how much JL's involvement has had an effect on things happening under this manager/head coach and, for that matter, the previous one.

I am trying seriously hard not to think about that!

[Kid in the Riot]

59 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don't know Max

i know zilch about eithers  situation

@Kid in the Riot ,  @Harry  , @redcherryberry Or @spudski are the ones likely to have some idea if anyone does

What surprises me is that , why we kept it so quiet , and bearing in mind this happened late January why we havnt / didn't replace Taylor , especially in preparation for the Summers recruitment

SL hinted it was quite an acrimonious fall-out with Taylor. The only rumour I've heard which seems to persist is that it was something to do with the Matty Taylor deal.

Taylor did a great job at Bournemouth in helping them reach the top flight and is now at Liverpool. Maybe his ambitions didn't align with City's. He actually left Bournemouth back in 2011, interview below:

Quote

Explaining his decision to the Daily Echo, Taylor said: “I felt I had done everything I could to procure the right players for the club. But I became frustrated as it was apparent that the club’s objectives were not as ambitious as I had hoped for, in as much as the policy was only to bring in players to replace the ones we had lost.

“There were a number of players with great potential we could have made moves on, particularly from non-league. But the club seemed reluctant to take a chance on these players, whom I felt were reasonable long-term acquisitions. Therefore, I felt I had done everything I could.

“I worked for the club for nothing for 18 months and was then fortunate to be offered a permanent contract when Lee Bradbury and Steve Fletcher took over. It was a huge privilege to work as closely as I did with Lee. My decision is no reflection on him because he is a man of integrity and honesty. With the right support, Lee will go on to manage a successful team.

“I know Lee is disappointed with my decision but I have left for the right reasons and see my future elsewhere. I don’t have any concrete plans at the moment and will see what the future holds.”

 

[City Ben]

2 hours ago, bearded_red said:

Huddersfield and Reading had very similar seasons to us 2 years ago. One team employed a USA international who was coaching at Borussia Dortmund, the other a Dutch international who was coaching at Ajax. We went for someone that just happened to play for us, be the son of of a previous manager and family friend of the owner. Now I'm not actually saying he should be ruled out because of those facts, but to the outsider which clubs have shown more ambition? Which clubs have looked as far as they possibly can for the best candidate? Should either of them be poached by another club at some stage, or even sacked, they will bring in a replacement that works under the same model. The club won't just be out on it's feet because the Head Coach has had to change.

 

I see both sides of the debate. I want there to be a plan, a strategy... I like the investment in youth, I like that stability gives us the opportunity to actually see growth/ improvement in our players and system. I don't know whether LJ is the right man to lead it, but I kind of want him to be just as if he succeeds then so do City.

However the para above is, in my view, the best articulation yet of why SL's execution of this strategy might be flawed. I don't want that to be the case! But ultimately it probably is. It's very possible to have an awesome strategy, and fail because of poor execution. Happens all the time. 

 

PS I do still see green shoots though. We've played enough good football this season to make me think that there is potential in there. Nothing would make me (or any of us, I'd imagine) happier than that potential being real, and developing in to a genuinely successful team of young, skilful players.