What does Lansdown see that most of us can't ?

[CotswoldRed]

DaveInSA - Offset his tax bill? 

I've never truly understood what people mean when they say this. How do you save more tax than you actually spend? 

I've often heard "he donates to charity to offset or reduce his tax". How? You can't reduce your tax by more than what it cost you to donate surely. 

[petehinton]

15 hours ago, Red Exile said:

I share your frustration Andy...and I'll have stab at a considered reply. I think, from his more recent radio interviews, that SL believes that way to make City a financially sustainable Championship club is to sign young players before they reach their peak, develop and exploit their talent, and then sell them if they command high fees...Kodjia being the best example to date. Benefits the club on the playing side and financially. I can understand that...and if that was the publicly stated aim of the club, as it has been at, say, Brentford, I think people would be understanding...we'd get to see some of the brightest talent playing for us and then make a few bob.

Of course, to make that work, all that young talent would have to been brilliantly scouted and be being coached and managed through games by a manager and coaching team of rare quality, people who could spot winners, develop young players and nurse them thorough matches with tactical skill. Big ask. Fact is our management team has no proven experience. What it has is connections to SL and to each other. At worst it's a bunch of rookie mates having a go...which in my opinion is unlikely to succeed.

And at the same time the stated objectives of the club are what?...I understood it was the Prem and a place in Europe!

The inconsistencies are sadly all too obvious. Doesn't bode well.

And how many players has LJ brought in, in the near 2 years & 3 transfer windows he wanted to be judged on, that we've sold for more money, or could sell for big money? 

Just Kodjia I gue....ah wait that was Cotts. 

Engvall? Wait he's isn't good enough 

O'Dowda? He's not good enough either

Ummm...Hegeler? Wait he plays him out of  position

Brownhill? He plays him out of position too

I'm struggling here 

[DaveInSA]

17 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

DaveInSA - Offset his tax bill? 

I've never truly understood what people mean when they say this. How do you save more tax than you actually spend? 

I've often heard "he donates to charity to offset or reduce his tax". How? You can't reduce your tax by more than what it cost you to donate surely. 

As far as I understand it, the very wealth have many ways to offset their tax. Very simplistically, one such way is to set up a company which makes a loss every year. You don't pay tax on a loss, so if you own a loss making company, the money on your income statements can be shown in such a way that the losses from one company offset the profits from another, thus you pay less tax (you pay taxes on profits from companies). In South Africa the super rich own wine farms (not sports teams) another sure fire loss making initiative.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

22 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

I made my views known on this last year about SL.

I've changed them slightly. There can only only be two reasons.

1. He's using Bristol Sport as a project to offset his tax bill (most likely, even though you don't want to hear it)
2. He is totally and utterly inept.

 

We need an experienced coach. Who can set up the structure in line with global best practice (Barcelona, Southampton, Liverpool). It isn't rocket science. The case studies are all there. Southampton are STILL poaching players from under our noses - at Keynsham, they scout and sign kids up. What are we doing?

Rant over.

 

 No, Dave - I really really genuinely would like to hear it:

Just explain in brief terms how he is using Bristol Sport as a tax loss/ tax vehicle which you say is 'most likely'. This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm sure many of us would truly like to know how this works.

In respect of Liverpool, Southampton & Barcelona  : " It isn't rocket science"- well if it was even remotely uncomplicated then everyone would be doing it.

 

[spudski]

If you want to go THERE...then start looking how the Community trust is being run now ;-)

[Red Exile]

1 minute ago, petehinton said:

I'm struggling here 

...me too! I think I understand what SL is aiming for, but can't see much chance of him succeeding if he largely surrounds himself with friends and relations...as he seems to want to. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

4 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

As far as I understand it, the very wealth have many ways to offset their tax. Very simplistically, one such way is to set up a company which makes a loss every year. You don't pay tax on a loss, so if you own a loss making company, the money on your income statements can be shown in such a way that the losses from one company offset the profits from another, thus you pay less tax (you pay taxes on profits from companies). In South Africa the super rich own wine farms (not sports teams) another sure fire loss making initiative.

Ah- ok. That was quick!!!

 So SL is using  BS to offset losses against the profits of another linked company in his group which cannot be Hargreaves Lansdown as it is not linked. He cannot offset company losses against personal income so  it must be another hugely profitable company that he owns and is linked to BS which .... errr...doesn't exist.

So this only leaves your statement that he must be inept in some way- which does beg the question is that how can a guy who amasses a fortune close on £2billion get to be so inept.

It seems like the only thing that will satisfy many and prove SL knows what he's doing is to  ditch LJ. This may well happen if the Millwall game is a blueprint for our next 8-10 games but after 1 win, 1 loss and two draws at the start of the season there is no chance and I agree with that - for now at least.

 

 

Here's how intracompany profit/loss works:

If the company or organisation is a member of a group then losses on property income can be offset against profits of other members of the group if they arise in the same accounting period, but only to the extent that they exceed the company's own profits of the period.

Corporation Tax: calculating and claiming a loss - GOV.UK

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/corporation-tax-calculating-and-claiming-a-loss

 

 

 

[RedM]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

If you want to go THERE...then start looking how the Community trust is being run now ;-)

What do you mean,  PM me if need be, I'm interested please

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

If you want to go THERE...then start looking how the Community trust is being run now ;-)

Ahh- the old nudge nudge wink wink- I know something you lot don't! 

OK, Spudski- tell us- how is the  Charitable Community Trust being run now??

 

[GrahamC]

I actually think it is simple.

SL, successful businessman that he is, clearly knows next to nothing about football and how it works.

The only managerial appointment he has ever got right is GJ, who for all the criticism on here, delivered a 4th place followed by 2 top ten finishes.

Since then he has either appointed failures or people he couldn't get on with, or in at least one case, both.

He has therefore reverted back to what he saw worked and gone for son of GJ, interesting too that unlike everyone else who has left the job since he still maintains a good relationship with GJ..

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Lansdown wants to create a settled and stable club as he's seen over several seasons how disruptive chopping and changing the manager is.. it's not just one man either. it's all the backroom changes that go along with a managerial change.

 

 

 

Another correction for you, old chap, to go with @Bob Bob Super Bob's correction: the "stability" you speak of there and all the "backroom changes that go along with a managerial change," - this is trotted out often, a cliche almost, but does it hold true?

Do you want a minute to think about whether sticking with a struggling manager/head coach last season resulted in no backroom changes?

John Pemberton? Ring any bells? Dean Holden, Jamie Mac? Des Taylor? 

[spudski]

Look into how the Community trust is now being run down. How many staff they had before, and how many they have now. Look into whether they are raising money to put into the trust, or whether it's coming from a more direct source now a days. You'll find your answers that way.

Imo...we won't have a Bristol City Community trust soon...it will be a Bristol Sport community project, run in a completely different manner and approach.

[DaveInSA]

24 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Ah- ok. That was quick!!!

 So SL is using  BS to offset losses against the profits of another linked company in his group which cannot be Hargreaves Lansdown as it is not linked. He cannot offset company losses against personal income so  it must be another hugely profitable company that he owns and is linked to BS which .... errr...doesn't exist.

So this only leaves your statement that he must be inept in some way- which does beg the question is that how can a guy who amasses a fortune close on £2billion get to be so inept.

It seems like the only thing that will satisfy many and prove SL knows what he's doing is to  ditch LJ. This may well happen if the Millwall game is a blueprint for our next 8-10 games but after 1 win, 1 loss and two draws at the start of the season there is no chance and I agree with that - for now at least.

 

 

Here's how intracompany profit/loss works:

If the company or organisation is a member of a group then losses on property income can be offset against profits of other members of the group if they arise in the same accounting period, but only to the extent that they exceed the company's own profits of the period.

Corporation Tax: calculating and claiming a loss - GOV.UK

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/corporation-tax-calculating-and-claiming-a-loss

 

 

 

So, unless there's a company that we don't know about (which could be in existence??) he's a complete, stubborn f@£$wit.

Oh dear.

[RedM]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Look into how the Community trust is now being run down. How many staff they had before, and how many they have now. Look into whether they are raising money to put into the trust, or whether it's coming from a more direct source now a days. You'll find your answers that way.

Imo...we won't have a Bristol City Community trust soon...it will be a Bristol Sport community project, run in a completely different manner and approach.

Interesting. Is the information somewhere I can see it though, I'm not sure where to look as you suggest?

[Grey Fox]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Immature. People who travelled to Birmingham, Brentford and then watched that shower of shit yesterday (if we were only interested in the result we would watch it on Final Score like some on here who seem to be the most vociferous) have a right to express concerns based on what they have seen in the last two and a half matches where  we have been a clear second best.

immatue? Trust me sonny, Ive followed City for over 50 years and was at the Brentford match, cheering the team on with the rest of the true supporters of this club. As a supporter other than the odd league cup tie I can not remember us getting much there before. i also am mature enough to remember taking a Crystal Palace friend to Ashton Gate for an early season game against them, we won 4-1, by the end of that season they were promoted and we were relegated. 

If you bhad read the reports on Millwalls previous games you would realise that they are not a poor team, neitther are Brentford, but I doubt their forums have such tantrums as this just because they did not get 12 points from the first four games.

so be a good boy and put ypur toys back tidily in your pram

[Red Exile]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Lansdown wants to create a settled and stable club as he's seen over several seasons how disruptive chopping and changing the manager is.. it's not just one man either. it's all the backroom changes that go along with a managerial change.

He said recently that he feels that everyone at the club is pulling in the right durection which convinces me that he's happy with the current set up.

He expects Ashton to oversee the non football day to day running of the club and LJ to oversee the whole purpose of the club, the football.

How either of them go about their jobs is of little interest to SL as long as they're doing their jobs.

A means to an end in other words.

 

 

Robbo, to an extent I agree. I'm sure that settled and stable is what Lansdown wants, and I know that you've heard from some of the key players and been impressed. I'm unimpressed by the patter of both MA and LJ, seems glib salesman speak to me, but I appreciate that they can speak fluently. But that's irrelevant if they are doing their jobs well.

The problem is surely that what Lansdown wants isn't the same as what he's got. What he's got is an inexperienced, yet seemingly very self-confident, team... scouting, recruiting, training and managing expensive young players who don't appear to gel as a unit and who more often than not appear to lack strategic direction when they get on the pitch. 

Which strikes me as a recipe for future chaos, not stability, no matter how much Lansdown might want the latter. I think we all understand what he wants, and would love to see it, he's going about it the wrong way, in my opinion.

[Grey Fox]

2 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

No, we expect our team just to have a go, not play like a team of clueless pub footballers when millions have been forked out to sign them, and when it is blindingly obvious that we are struggling to get a foothold in the game we expect our hungry and innovative manager make the tactical changes to effect the game in the right way. Let's remember, we are fed lines about the players we purchase having the right DNA and character.....so that is what we expect to see when we pay our money. We don't expect to be world beaters, that's just sarcastically rubbishing a negative comment, which equates to blind faith. The last 2 and a half games have not been good enough. It is worryingly reminiscent of last season, but we have had an entire summer to prepare for this season with a different mental attitude, yet as soon as we are in a physical battle or the opposition score we literally just crumble. That is a real worry.

This is the Championship, every team from Burton to Middlesbrough will produce different challenges which we ,as does everyone else,  have to counter. Are you suggesting that if we dont get it exactly right we sack the manager every two games?

As to new signings, who does not build up a new acquisition? And it is not unusual for new players and those around them take a few games to gel. That can often br particularly true of foreign players who need to get use to the speed of the English game and the change of language / culture etc

[Jacki]

I think the most instructive quote I've seen and heard from SL in recent times is where he's said that he's never known a time where everyone in the management team is pulling together and believing in the vision like they are now.

Having a common purpose and vision that everyone is bought into is in theory a positive thing. Where I fear it's falling down at BCFC is that SL appears to have surrounded himself with people who aren't going to rock the boat, 'yes men' in other words. Does anyone have the balls (or experience) to question SL and stand up to him if they disagree on anything? It seems highly unlikely. 

SL has stated that he wants a play off push this year, or at least a top 10 finish. I think we'd all be happy with either of those outcomes, and we'd agree that such a season would constitute considerable progress. I've only seen the last two games to form a view, but it seems highly unlikely we'll do anything other than struggle in exactly the same way as the last 2 seasons on the evidence I've seen. And that, considering the money spent, would be really disappointing. 

[Ivorguy]

5 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Robby, to an extent I agree. I'm sure that steeled and stable is what Lansdown wants, and I know that you've heard from some of the key players and been impressed. I'm unimpressed by the patter of both MA and LJ, seems glib salesman speak to me, but I appreciate that they can speak fluently. But that's irrelevant if they are doing their jobs well.

The problem is surely that what Lansdown wants isn't the same as what he's got. What he's got is an inexperienced, yet seemingly very self-confident, team... scouting, recruiting, training and managing expensive young players who don't appear to gel as a unit and who more often than not appear to lack strategic direction when they get on the pitch. 

Which strikes me as a recipe for future chaos, not stability, no matter how much Lansdown might want the latter. I think we all understand what he wants, and would love to see it, he's going about it the wrong way, in my opinion.

I am not sure what SL wants.  

If you mean Premiership football then he is going a very odd way of getting there :

1 He has failed for over a decade

2 He failed to act when we nearly got there.  A little extra money then would have made the difference

3 I do not understand how Bristol Sport helps City to reach Premiership

4 I do not understand why he has failed to invest the sort of money required; or brought in extra investors

5 I do not understand why, Coppell aside (and that didn't work out well), he has failed to invest in proven managers at this level

6 Stable does not have to equal Premiership.  Stable, financially, could mean bouncing between division 1 and Championship

7  Even the all singing all dancing new Stadium has a capacity which would fail to provide stability at Premiership level

I really don't understand this man's motive and aspiration.  Poor old Harry Dolman was crystal clear and achieved his goal.  

Does SL simply want to be hailed as Mr Bristol Sport, with Rugby and other cheaper elements giving a little gloss, and City always promising but always falling at the final expensive hurdle? Is that the reason City have an emasculated Board?

All very perplexing to this ordinary fan

 

 

 

 

[spudski]

An individual or business giving to a registered charity will gain certain tax reliefs and other benefits.

[RedM]

It's easier to achieve with rugby than football but he's had an experienced rugby manager before with mixed results. Last season he was sacked and an inexperienced replacement manager got them relegated. But SL had already recruited a very experienced and well respected replacement who has now joined. He had to wait months for him and was prepared to do so to get the right man, who is in turn attracting quality players who are moving half way around the world to play for him.

I will be interested to see if we are successful with this approach in the rugby to see if anything rubs off onto the football, but as I said it's easier with the rugby at this level, we are a huge fish in a tiny pond, but the principal is the same, quality attracts quality.

i like Lee Johnson, and I like Steve Lansdown but I wish they didn't have the connection that they do. I wish LJ would hurry up and master his trade or bow out, I can't have my club bring used as a Guinea pig learning tool much longer. Yes I would love it to come good and have Steve L shouting 'I told you so' from the top of the  Lansdown, but I'm just as likely to see him throwing himself off it!

[Red Exile]

7 minutes ago, RedM said:

i like Lee Johnson, and I like Steve Lansdown but I wish they didn't have the connection that they do. I wish LJ would hurry up and master his trade or bow out, I can't have my club bring used as a Guinea pig learning tool much longer. Yes I would love it to come good and have Steve L shouting 'I told you so' from the top of the  Lansdown, but I'm just as likely to see him throwing himself off it!

I've never met LJ, but I liked his dad and I've liked Steve Lansdown when I've met him...and I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. I have a horrible feeling listening to recent interviews that Steve being able to say "I told you so" has become a significant factor in ensuring that LJ has a free pass...

[054123]

16 hours ago, Red Exile said:

I share your frustration Andy...and I'll have stab at a considered reply. I think, from his more recent radio interviews, that SL believes that way to make City a financially sustainable Championship club is to sign young players before they reach their peak, develop and exploit their talent, and then sell them if they command high fees...Kodjia being the best example to date. Benefits the club on the playing side and financially. I can understand that...and if that was the publicly stated aim of the club, as it has been at, say, Brentford, I think people would be understanding...we'd get to see some of the brightest talent playing for us and then make a few bob.

Of course, to make that work, all that young talent would have to been brilliantly scouted and be being coached and managed through games by a manager and coaching team of rare quality, people who could spot winners, develop young players and nurse them thorough matches with tactical skill. Big ask. Fact is our management team has no proven experience. What it has is connections to SL and to each other. At worst it's a bunch of rookie mates having a go...which in my opinion is unlikely to succeed.

And at the same time the stated objectives of the club are what?...I understood it was the Prem and a place in Europe!

The inconsistencies are sadly all too obvious. Doesn't bode well.

Fantastically put, my frustrations of the last 2/3 years in a nutshell.

I really cannot understand how people can't see the inconsistencies of the board and club and above the complete lack of progress on avieveinh either edict. 

[Cidre Monita]

Pula is the holding of a number of SL interests, one of which is football, others are aviation, sustainable energy investment funds etc. Hardly anything mind blowing or strange for such a high level businessman, it is a private company owned by SL and his wife. 

The role of Andrew Billingham in the decision making never gets asked mind. 

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I am not sure what SL wants.  

If you mean Premiership football then he is going a very odd way of getting there :

1 He has failed for over a decade

2 He failed to act when we nearly got there.  A little extra money then would have made the difference

3 I do not understand how Bristol Sport helps City to reach Premiership

4 I do not understand why he has failed to invest the sort of money required; or brought in extra investors

5 I do not understand why, Coppell aside (and that didn't work out well), he has failed to invest in proven managers at this level

6 Stable does not have to equal Premiership.  Stable, financially, could mean bouncing between division 1 and Championship

7  Even the all singing all dancing new Stadium has a capacity which would fail to provide stability at Premiership level

I really don't understand this man's motive and aspiration.  Poor old Harry Dolman was crystal clear and achieved his goal.  

Does SL simply want to be hailed as Mr Bristol Sport, with Rugby and other cheaper elements giving a little gloss, and City always promising but always falling at the final expensive hurdle? Is that the reason City have an emasculated Board?

All very perplexing to this ordinary fan

 

 

 

 

1) Lets just say not achieved , yet 

2)Spent a lot of money in our terms , probably on the wrong players so not all his fault.

3) I think for admin, organisation , ticketing and advertising etc it does make sense. Rather than employ separate groups just use one umbrella organisation for all and utilise them more effectively.

4) He has spent getting on for (probably) £100m all told , he also wants the club to be self sustainable which makes sense . That's not going to stop us wanting more.

5) Sadly proven or unproven there are no guarantees , I would have liked to have someone proven at this level but... I would have chosen Pearson over Monk , so who am I to criticise ? Ain't gonna stop me though.

6) That's true , but spending money that we are not earning is a slippery slope. Can't rely on the Lansdowns money for ever.

7) The Gate , would be about the 13th biggest ground in the Prem as it stands , no one knows if in the future we could increase the capacity in some way . WBA , Swansea and Palace are smaller, Stoke having 900 more seats. These last 4 are what could be classed as regular Prem sides, so it is possible

I do get your point , but throwing money at it didn't work , I'm guessing slow build is the latest theory . It's just like most, I'd like to see more signs of genuine progression on the field . While spend is relative , we have spent a lot on players with barely any obvious improvement . 
I keep telling myself , lets get to ten games and take stock, but it's difficult. I see scary similarities to last year , less tinkerman , but similar frailties .
I am a little concerned even at this stupidly early stage. 

[Agard Days Night]

13 hours ago, CyderInACan said:

I'll be staying in last years caravan with @Agard Days Night again soon 

Bit presumptuous there @CyderInACan.

 

 

But I do like a bit of company down there as a distraction from the kids so we could definitely work something out. 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

 

 

I think I've picked most of these up.. Multiquote is arse on here

 

The response is really simple.

 

Supporting BCFC will have it's ups and downs, it's part and parcel of football in general that our team are going to have periods of great play and periods of shocking play. some seasons we will do really well, others we will do not so well.

We are curently on one of our longest consecutive runs in this league, in our long and and industrious history we are in season 3 up here this time around.  Which a nice added bonus. Some will point to we should be this that and the other, however we done have a divine right to push on nor do we have a divine right to WIN every game or PLAY well every game. Some times we are gunna be poo, it's the nature of the game. Some times we will play brilliantly and others we will mount the almighest of comebacks ( Dele vs Wolves, Mansfield etc etc) .

Still support the team, good bad or indifferent. These days it's easier to chill out and see where we end up rather than micromanage every single last detail about the club, how we played and so forth. There's intense and then there's extreme. A while ago, possibly as long as 25 years ago. Tomorrow's World did a study on the rate of heart attacks in Serie A, looking at one fan of Fiorentina in particular.  He lived and breathed and went totally to town on Fiorentina, and had had multiple heart attacks as a result of that. His club was his life, if they did well his stress levels decreased if they were pants it put immense pressure on his heart. Following a shift in the way he followed the team, he was able to attend and have fun irrespective. He was going for the spectacle and wasnt getting bent out of shape by every single little thing that happened. He showed his support by turning up where he could or following the team, however his life wasnt a codependency on his team for his well being. It's a subtle shift, but the change it brings is huge.

So, we played terrible, got a clean sheet, We have Villa next, and shall see what that game brings.  I'll worry about relegation, if and when we get to that point. In the interim, Ill see early season sides still trying to find their level and enjoy the league. It's not that difficult to grasp and certainly makes following city a hell of a lot easier.

 

 

I think the worst thing anyone can do, to fill a void in their life, is get too embroiled in what is happening at your football club or too embroiled in a football forum.

It will only lead to more heartache, more frustration and more heated arguments and negative feelings.

You are right in so many ways...you sometimes just have to go with the flow.

Can't be good for peoples mind set to get so wound up about something they can't control.

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

57 minutes ago, spudski said:

An individual or business giving to a registered charity will gain certain tax reliefs and other benefits.

The more incentives given to rich people to help disadvantaged people the better.

I doubt very much the recipients of charitable organisations care much for the motivations of the donor.

The Everton U23's have just raised £265,000 to buy a house in Liverpool for some young kids who would otherwise be on the street- brilliant and well done.

Just saying like, Spudski.

[spudski]

15 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

The more incentives given to rich people to help disadvantaged people the better.

I doubt very much the recipients of charitable organisations care much for the motivations of the donor.

The Everton U23's have just raised £265,000 to buy a house in Liverpool for some young kids who would otherwise be on the street- brilliant and well done.

Just saying like, Spudski.

I don't disagree with you or have alluded that it's a bad thing in my posts. Just pointing out a few things that are changing.

As for your Everton scenario...lovely...well done them.

You then have the other side of the coin in football...

https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn?CMP=share_btn_fb

[Jack Dawe]

32 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think the worst thing anyone can do, to fill a void in their life, is get too embroiled in what is happening at your football club or too embroiled in a football forum.

It will only lead to more heartache, more frustration and more heated arguments and negative feelings.

You are right in so many ways...you sometimes just have to go with the flow.

Can't be good for peoples mind set to get so wound up about something they can't control.

 

Wise words, spud.

But what would football be, without such obsession/passion/involvement? Without thousands of people becoming embroiled in it? It would be rugby union, that's what. Football needs this obsession/involvement, makes billions from it. And that obsession is a double-edged sword, which owners and their like don't like. 

And we all fill our lives with something, even rugby union types (although what they fill the void in their lives with, I do not know).