The Millwall Debacle

[swanker]

12 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Very ugly game today.

Thought Millwall had a good side for the system they play. Not pretty but lots of big lumps. 

Tom Elliot caused us some problems when he came on, decent targetman I thought. I reckon they'll stay up as they'll grind out away draws and a few wins playing like that. Very hard to play against and we had no answer.

I don't think they'll stay up they're a physical side who'll get turned over quite a lot at this standard.  Wouldn't be surprised if they get beaten next week. 

[spudski]

LJ mentioned yesterday and also against Brentford, that the players didn't stick to a plan and didn't do things that was asked of them.

Against Brentford, it was playing long hopeful balls, instead of being direct and incisive.

Yesterday, he wanted them to play wider...yet we often went narrow and ran into brick walls, where it got congested.

Bryan looked tired and reluctant to get forward as much. Smith was hopeless. The ball looked like a hot potato with Patterson and Brownhill. Bobby got bossed and Diedou looked slow.

Thankfully we aren't going to meet the likes of Millwall's style every week.

My only hope is, that if Flint is going, any money will be spent on a decent CM who can boss the game better when pressure arises.

We haven't got any natural leaders out there at the moment. Flint for all his size was a big softy. As are most of our players.

None of them in my face would scare me. We still have a soft underbelly.

As for LJ's interviews....yesterday was crying out for 'less is more'. It needed a simple honest McCarthy type interview, stating we were crap, and we move on.

[Dolman Block B]

It was an awful performance, nothing like the game v Barnsley and teams like Millwall have to be beaten at home.

No doubt big changes for the Watford game, would like to thnk the Matt Taylor can have a run out.

Then Villa friday who are just finding their feet (typical)

I cannot see our attackers giving their defenders any trouble at all, and can only see one outcome, a defeat.

That would then be a poor start to the season and with 4 away games in Sept v Reading, Wolves, Norwich and Ipswich we could see ourselves in the relegation zone with a long and worrying season ahead.

 

[ScottishRed]

3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

As at the start of last season we're short of strikers at the moment, think we'd have been much better with Taylor and Đurić available. The strikers we have are playing too many minutes, Diedhiou is particularly affected not so much Reid. Once at least one of the two are available we'll see an improvement like we did after the January window. I think we should have used Engvall rather that send him out on loan.

Too many minutes? They are professional athletes who have played 4 league games - it's still August!

' Much better with Taylor and Đurić' ? Really?

Taylor is not a Championship level player and Đurić already looks like he may be one of those players whose body does not have the physical capacity to sustain regularly playing professional sport - witness Jack Wiltshire, Andy Carroll, Daniel Sturridge and countless others. 

The Engvall situation is beyond bizarre. If he is not good enough then why on earth did we buy him and at a not insignificant cost. Yes, not every transfer works out but he has not had much opportunity which is strange given what is spouted about DNA, background checks, scouting etc......all very odd and somewhat concerning.

[ScottishRed]

1 minute ago, Dolman Block B said:

It was an awful performance, nothing like the game v Barnsley and teams like Millwall have to be beaten at home.

No doubt big changes for the Watford game, would like to thnk the Matt Taylor can have a run out.

Then Villa friday who are just finding their feet (typical)

I cannot see our attackers giving their defenders any trouble at all, and can only see one outcome, a defeat.

That would then be a poor start to the season and with 4 away games in Sept v Reading, Wolves, Norwich and Ipswich we could see ourselves in the relegation zone with a long and worrying season ahead.

 

Sadly that could be a very accurate prediction.

[pillred]

14 hours ago, YorkshireSection said:

Woodrows record is awful, not really a signing that I'm thrilled about, I thought we were looking for a striker with pace and presence, as for Diedhiou I have a bad feeling.

lets hope he proves us both wrong, because I have to say and yes it's only a few games in, but at the moment I'm feeling we have just wasted 5 million. 

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Dolman Block B said:

It was an awful performance, nothing like the game v Barnsley and teams like Millwall have to be beaten at home.

No doubt big changes for the Watford game, would like to thnk the Matt Taylor can have a run out.

Then Villa friday who are just finding their feet (typical)

I cannot see our attackers giving their defenders any trouble at all, and can only see one outcome, a defeat.

That would then be a poor start to the season and with 4 away games in Sept v Reading, Wolves, Norwich and Ipswich we could see ourselves in the relegation zone with a long and worrying season ahead.

 

I can see Hinds, Eliason, Woodrow, Hegeler, Magners and maybe even Vyner used against Watford.

[reddoh]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

LJ mentioned yesterday and also against Brentford, that the players didn't stick to a plan and didn't do things that was asked of them.

Against Brentford, it was playing long hopeful balls, instead of being direct and incisive.

Yesterday, he wanted them to play wider...yet we often went narrow and ran into brick walls, where it got congested.

Bryan looked tired and reluctant to get forward as much. Smith was hopeless. The ball looked like a hot potato with Patterson and Brownhill. Bobby got bossed and Diedou looked slow.

Thankfully we aren't going to meet the likes of Millwall's style every week.

My only hope is, that if Flint is going, any money will be spent on a decent CM who can boss the game better when pressure arises.

We haven't got any natural leaders out there at the moment. Flint for all his size was a big softy. As are most of our players.

None of them in my face would scare me. We still have a soft underbelly.

As for LJ's interviews....yesterday was crying out for 'less is more'. It needed a simple honest McCarthy type interview, stating we were crap, and we move on.

sadly yesterday when my wife picked me up from the station  for the first time ever I mentioned the game and said it was boring. we've been thrashed, we've won never say a thing.

I think that sums up yesterday.

[tinman85]

6 minutes ago, pillred said:

lets hope he proves us both wrong, because I have to say and yes it's only a few games in, but at the moment I'm feeling we have just wasted 5 million. 

There were a couple of lads near me yesterday saying we've just bought a £5M Bas Savage! 

[tinman85]

3 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

There were a couple of lads near me yesterday saying we've just bought a £5M Bas Savage! 

It did get a lot of laughs from a few. Think it was the moment he ran towards the Atyeo with a high ball and inexplicably bundled over a Millwall defender when he had a chance of getting in on goal. 

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

There is a conundrum here. I am one of those who is critical of LJ's failure to adapt tactically to the opposition, as evidenced by the last two and a half games. But if he changes personnel and tactics from game to game he is accused of a 'tombola' approach. We fans can't have it both ways.

I note also that he implied that the players got caught up in the emotion of the game (which I took to mean their reaction to 'Wall's physical approach) and didn't stick to the plan.

This may come across as an excuse but may also be true. To be tactically adaptable you need intelligent players capable of adapting and of keeping a cool head under pressure. I don't see a lot of those in the squad but arguably Hegeler is one, yet he was first to be dropped, with a noticeable effect on our style and performance.

I don't really agree with that. People can generally see when changes produce a positive result by, for example, stemming the flow of attacks from the opposition or gaining more possession etc. 

When we are utterly useless and no changes are made, that says little more than "I don't know what to do". 

Changes that have a negative effect simply means he is young, learning and makes mistakes. 

Whether that means he is out of his depth really depends on the frequency and your own personal opinion. 

[pillred]

1 hour ago, foghornred said:

Credit to Millwall they made it the game that they wanted to play,unfortunately we could not impose our game on them, its not pretty to watch and if you don't stand up to it you will get beaten.

A goal for us may have changed it a little but a goal for them would have made it worse, so for me that was a great defensive display and we move on after gaining a good point in a game that would have lost last year. COYR  

I think unfortunately you may be cutting and pasting your reply many times this season.

[reddoh]

1 minute ago, tinman85 said:

It did get a lot of laughs from a few. Think it was the moment he ran towards the Atyeo with a high ball and inexplicably bundled over a Millwall defender when he had a chance of getting in on goal. 

in the old days that was obstruction by the defender imo if you have not touched the ball you are not in control and therefore you have have committed the offence

[Inactive user]

1 hour ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

Happy 

 

tfj

You know me TFJ. Glass always a bit too half full

[pillred]

12 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Who is writing of Woodrow? It's the service into him that is gonna be the issue

As for Bobby, great start to the season for him but hardly likely to score 10+ over the season

10+ goals unlikely you are joking you must be surely, he will get at least 15 maybe more.

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

I don't really agree with that. People can generally see when changes produce a positive result by, for example, stemming the flow of attacks from the opposition or gaining more possession etc. 

When we are utterly useless and no changes are made, that says little more than "I don't know what to do". 

Changes that have a negative effect simply means he is young, learning and makes mistakes. 

Whether that means he is out of his depth really depends on the frequency and your own personal opinion. 

I think this covers some of my thoughts too.

Saying "the players didn't do what I told them" is all well and good, but why is that?

Additonally, we saw changes against Brum not make a positive difference followed by LJ being seemingly unwilling to use subs against Brentford while under pressure, so I am still concerned we're looking at a bigger problem relating to the tactical capability of our coach, not just the players not doing what they are told.

I'm still attempting to be positive this season, so hope this week we can get a headline grabbing result against a Premier League side, and thrash Villa on telly, but the last two and a half games give me pause.

[Dolman Block B]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

I can see Hinds, Eliason, Woodrow, Hegeler, Magners and maybe even Vyner used against Watford.

I wouldn't hesitate

Its a cup we won't win

Experiment 

[lenred]

27 minutes ago, spudski said:

LJ mentioned yesterday and also against Brentford, that the players didn't stick to a plan and didn't do things that was asked of them.

Against Brentford, it was playing long hopeful balls, instead of being direct and incisive.

Yesterday, he wanted them to play wider...yet we often went narrow and ran into brick walls, where it got congested.

Bryan looked tired and reluctant to get forward as much. Smith was hopeless. The ball looked like a hot potato with Patterson and Brownhill. Bobby got bossed and Diedou looked slow.

Thankfully we aren't going to meet the likes of Millwall's style every week.

My only hope is, that if Flint is going, any money will be spent on a decent CM who can boss the game better when pressure arises.

We haven't got any natural leaders out there at the moment. Flint for all his size was a big softy. As are most of our players.

None of them in my face would scare me. We still have a soft underbelly.

As for LJ's interviews....yesterday was crying out for 'less is more'. It needed a simple honest McCarthy type interview, stating we were crap, and we move on.

Some good points Spud but the highlighted stands out for me. Why oh why oh why can LJ just not say it as it is without over talking with his usual platitudes. He talked of 'deserving a point' against Brentford which by all accounts who were there was complete and utter *ollocks and then yesterday continued where he left off last year with veiled blame against the team with his comments about not being able to play to the plan. I really hoped that he had would've  learned to have at least taken accountability this season if nothing else but it seems even that's not going to happen. He just needs to man up and take some responsibility.  

[...]

7 minutes ago, Rednwhiterob said:

You know me TFJ. Glass always a bit too half full

Yes, yes, the Europa League is a pale imitation of the Champions League - but nothing to complain about.

I'm really looking forward to European footy at the Gate.

 

tfj

[CotswoldRed]

1 minute ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

Yes, yes, the Europa League is a pale imitation of the Champions League - but nothing to complain about.

I'm really looking forward to European footy at the Gate.

 

tfj

You'd best buy a copy of FIFA 17 then. 

[...]

1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

You'd best buy a copy of FIFA 17 then. 

Us Vs Barnsley in the final - me thinks.

 

tfj

[ScottishRed]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

Some good points Spud but the highlighted stands out for me. Why oh why oh why can LJ just not say it as it is without over talking with his usual platitudes. He talked of 'deserving a point' against Brentford which by all accounts who were there was complete and utter *ollocks and then yesterday continued where he left off last year with veiled blame against the team with his comments about not being able to play to the plan. I really hoped that he had would've  learned to have at least taken accountability this season if nothing else but it seems even that's not going to happen. He just needs to man up and take some responsibility.  

The apparent inability to 'play to the plan' is utter nonsense. Either,

1. He is unable to articulate the plan clearly and coherently in the lead up to and during the game.

2. There actually isn't any specific plan.

3. The players don't understand the plan.

Whichever of these options, or any others, it is, none are an excuse that are valid after the first time it happens.

Our Head Coach has got to understand, and quickly, the buck stops with the management team - although maybe not at this club currently.

He cannot continue to take a stance that it's all their fault and not is. In doing that he is isolating himself and his coaches from the squad which would appear to be a position he is happy with given that he appears invincible in the eyes of the owner.

Should this continue we are in for a tough winter - human nature dictates that people who constantly get blamed unjustifiably become disinterested and are apprehensive of making their own decisions - not a good place for a professional football player.

 

 

[ScottishRed]

9 minutes ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

Yes, yes, the Europa League is a pale imitation of the Champions League - but nothing to complain about.

I'm really looking forward to European footy at the Gate.

 

tfj

Only 3 seasons to wait after this one! 

Hope we get a Spanish team in the Group - easy to get to from Bris Airport and weather could be nice September time.

[CotswoldRed]

2 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The apparent inability to 'play to the plan' is utter nonsense. Either,

1. He is unable to articulate the plan clearly and coherently in the lead up to and during the game.

2. There actually isn't any specific plan.

3. The players don't understand the plan.

Whichever of these options, or any others, it is, none are an excuse that are valid after the first time it happens.

Our Head Coach has got to understand, and quickly, the buck stops with the management team - although maybe not at this club currently.

He cannot continue to take a stance that it's all their fault and not is. In doing that he is isolating himself and his coaches from the squad which would appear to be a position he is happy with given that he appears invincible in the eyes of the owner.

Should this continue we are in for a tough winter - human nature dictates that people who constantly get blamed unjustifiably become disinterested and are apprehensive of making their own decisions - not a good place for a professional football player.

 

 

And stop leaning on the "need a couple more players in this/the next window". We'll never have all the players we'd like so it's a given. 

[...]

1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

And stop leaning on the "need a couple more players in this/the next window". We'll never have all the players we'd like so it's a given. 

As I cannot be arsed, can someone more learned quote how many players this berk has signed now.

I'd guess 20+ (approx two entire teams).

FFS Steve.

 

tfj

[...]

23 minutes ago, Rednwhiterob said:

You know me TFJ. Glass always a bit too half full

Can you change your avatar back to the previous one - it made you easier to identify?
 

Thanks, mate.

 

tfj

[...]

5 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

Only 3 seasons to wait after this one! 

Hope we get a Spanish team in the Group - easy to get to from Bris Airport and weather could be nice September time.

........... some folks hands are going to be sore from clapping by then, are they not??

 

tfj

[1bristolcity]

'Debacle'? Bit strong, we drew 0-0 first clean sheet of the season, last three teams we have played have suffered defeats the previous matches, and with Millwall they lost 3-4 at home mid-week, it was obvious they were going to batten down the hatches, you get these sort of matches in every season, no need to go overboard, but this is OTIB so anything goes, reminder...we didn't lose OK!! feeling better?

[chinapig]

50 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

2: Its basic sports psychology. It is not an infection, it is based upon evidence based research and often common sense, even if it does lead to dull homogenised interviews bordering on insulting.

Being negative frequently has little benefit in improving performance. Negatives should be tempered with positives. And on that goes ...

It is but when it gets to the extreme it leads to denying there are any negatives, which in turn leads to a failure to improve.

In football it leads to examples like Wenger elevating refusal to acknowledge weaknesses to a matter of principle. However often his team succumbs to pressure he will insist they have great mental strength for instance.

As so often the theory is fine but misinterpreted and misapplied. Simply saying 'we'll take the positives and move on ' is not enough and just becomes a way of shutting down debate. It is empty of content if you don't also acknowledge the negatives and work on improving.

[Bazooka Joe]

14 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Millwall shipped 4 at home on Tuesday yet we barely threatened them all game. We didn't look like we had a plan of what to do apart from 10 mins until half-time, and small spells at the start and end of the 2nd half. Then I hear LJ moaning about the fixture list in August - incredible. 

Fielding probably MOTM despite his shambolic kicking. I guess Wright and Baker were fairly solid and dealt with corners well. Struggling to credit any others. Joe Bryan, who somehow was given official MOTM, had a terrible first half. He seemed to think he all day long of the ball and was closed down so many times. 2nd half he did improve and hit a decent effort (one of only 2 efforts of note at their goal). Pisano not too bad but turns like a tank.

Korey Smith was incredibly bad. Pack marginally better. But essentially that central midfield isn't going to do anything in this league. Brownhill is not a winger either. Paterson tried to be productive but wasn't - I do think he is a reasonable player though and when he was involved at the end of last season it really helped us.

Up top Diedhoiu had a poor touch and was isolated. I think he will be good long term but he had little chance today. Reid the odd good touch but not involved much.

Very concerning so far. Forget Plymouth in the reserves cup. Barnsley are clearing a shocking side - stripped of all their decent players. Birmingham weren't great (although we did play well first half) and Brentford have had a shocking start yet apparently battered us for the majority of the game. Now Millwall, who will be down there with us, outplayed us. In fact no surprise to see all these teams in the bottom half despite how early it is.

I'll be amazed if we aren't in the bottom 6 teams.

I believe McCarthy signed both Waghorn and Garner for just £2m - they're banging in the goals and will probably contniue to do so.

Johnson pays £7m(?) for Fammy and brings in Woodrow - neither of whom who on the early evidence are gonna set the world alight.

I know which two I'd rather have.

Hope I'm proved wrong.

Likewise Warnock seems to have brought in some good 'uns at Cardiff.

Ipswich and Cardiff off to flying starts; we.on the other hand, already seem dire and punchless.

Early days, but it looks like grim times ahead....unless something dramtatic happens..