The Millwall Debacle

[bearded_red]

3 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I believe McCarthy signed both Waghorn and Garner for just £2m - they're banging in the goals and will probably contniue to do so.

 

His team also managed to keep a clean sheet against Brentford yesterday while an injury crisis meant his entire back four were fullbacks.

[exAtyeoMax]

38 minutes ago, samo II said:

I think this covers some of my thoughts too.

Saying "the players didn't do what I told them" is all well and good, but why is that?

Additonally, we saw changes against Brum not make a positive difference followed by LJ being seemingly unwilling to use subs against Brentford while under pressure, so I am still concerned we're looking at a bigger problem relating to the tactical capability of our coach, not just the players not doing what they are told.

I'm still attempting to be positive this season, so hope this week we can get a headline grabbing result against a Premier League side, and thrash Villa on telly, but the last two and a half games give me pause.

Did LJ actually tell them that during he game? He gestured to Frankie at one point but I didn't notice him say anything to anyone else (I do admit I was watching the players on the pitch most of the time or chatting to those around me, so could have missed it)

[Inactive user]

23 minutes ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

Can you change your avatar back to the previous one - it made you easier to identify?
 

Thanks, mate.

 

tfj

Not sure that would go down well. Do you mean the hideous troll or 'that' other one?   Seems combining alcohol and OTIB isn't a good idea. 

[samo II]

4 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Did LJ actually tell them that during he game? He gestured to Frankie at one point but I didn't notice him say anything to anyone else (I do admit I was watching the players on the pitch most of the time or chatting to those around me, so could have missed it)

I'm presuming he means in a broader pre-planned approach to the game sense, but it does beg the question as to how we adapt 'in-flight' and where the leadership/guile to do this comes from.

[lenred]

4 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Did LJ actually tell them that during he game? He gestured to Frankie at one point but I didn't notice him say anything to anyone else (I do admit I was watching the players on the pitch most of the time or chatting to those around me, so could have missed it)

It's this noticeable lack of activity from him that only adds fuel to the suggestions / belief from some  that LJ lacks the ability to make changes that positively affect games or has any type of Plan B. 

[exAtyeoMax]

10 minutes ago, samo II said:

I'm presuming he means in a broader pre-planned approach to the game sense, but it does beg the question as to how we adapt 'in-flight' and where the leadership/guile to do this comes from.

so you'd suppose that he would tell them mid-match…

[shelts]

I thought Millwall had a game plan and stuck with it , can't see what ours is ?

Keeper and back four did their jobs but the rest was toilet. It doesn't take much too upset us and put us off our game . 

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

There is a conundrum here. I am one of those who is critical of LJ's failure to adapt tactically to the opposition, as evidenced by the last two and a half games. But if he changes personnel and tactics from game to game he is accused of a 'tombola' approach. We fans can't have it both ways.

I note also that he implied that the players got caught up in the emotion of the game (which I took to mean their reaction to 'Wall's physical approach) and didn't stick to the plan.

This may come across as an excuse but may also be true. To be tactically adaptable you need intelligent players capable of adapting and of keeping a cool head under pressure. I don't see a lot of those in the squad but arguably Hegeler is one, yet he was first to be dropped, with a noticeable effect on our style and performance.

I agree with the intelligence bit , consistently floating long balls in to their big lads at the back was just so frustrating.

Who was there for us ? 

Fammy , Ok but Bobby ! 

Not really his game is it ? 

We only got beyond them once all game .

 If Millwall could shoot straight we'd have lost that match .

[Olé]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

There is a conundrum here. I am one of those who is critical of LJ's failure to adapt tactically to the opposition, as evidenced by the last two and a half games. But if he changes personnel and tactics from game to game he is accused of a 'tombola' approach. We fans can't have it both ways.

I note also that he implied that the players got caught up in the emotion of the game (which I took to mean their reaction to 'Wall's physical approach) and didn't stick to the plan.

This may come across as an excuse but may also be true.

Firstly, I have been struck myself by the potential hypocrisy of seeking adjustments from a manager who's major failing last season was over adjustment, but I don't think the two are incompatible. Last season his major issue was match to match, with endless seemingly random changes to both starting line up and formation and players disappearing or returned for weeks on end (i.e. he doesn't know his best side or formation). This season he has definitely settled on a pattern of play and formation but it is now being easily countered by better managers, and he appears unable to think of a way to adapt to that within the games themselves.

You mention LJ's own assessment and the potential for excuse - well having just driven back down the M4 this morning, I treated myself to the on demand version of Twentyman Talks Back in order to hear his view. I wish I hadn't now. For me it IS all excuses and the same bluffing he tried last season. First of all, to talk about Millwall's style of play as an issue, I could have told you how they would have played and I only saw them twice last season. Everyone in the league knows how they'll play, I put £25 on 0-0 because I knew they would suffocate the match, you cannot come out afterwards bemoaning something that was expected.

In fact, Millwall actually exceeded how I thought they'd play, because they pushed even more men up and had far more chances than us. So we didn't have an answer for an approach we should have known was coming AND we actually allowed that team to play beyond their expectations. Tactically that's a complete failure and Johnson is blaming the opposition. I note he also complained about there being too many games at this stage of the season and went on to even say that perhaps City fans had been spoiled by the first half against Barnsley and Birmingham, as if playing well is a luxury and we should get used to being dominated.

So yes, I do think he is a man absolutely full of excuses, and that is being charitable. Just listening to him fills me with fear. "We just needed that little tickle" was one of his comments. I don't even know what that means. It's still August, give me strength. 

[Olé]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

As for LJ's interviews....yesterday was crying out for 'less is more'. It needed a simple honest McCarthy type interview, stating we were crap, and we move on.

Amen Spud. Glad to have you back.

[Cowshed]

48 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It is but when it gets to the extreme it leads to denying there are any negatives, which in turn leads to a failure to improve.

In football it leads to examples like Wenger elevating refusal to acknowledge weaknesses to a matter of principle. However often his team succumbs to pressure he will insist they have great mental strength for instance.

As so often the theory is fine but misinterpreted and misapplied. Simply saying 'we'll take the positives and move on ' is not enough and just becomes a way of shutting down debate. It is empty of content if you don't also acknowledge the negatives and work on improving.

I was replying to your number 2 as I generalisation - I can't say if Lee Johnson is being extreme as I rarely listen/read what he says post match because I do not expect him to say anything of much significance.    

Creating challenge states, growth mindsets is difficult, nigh on impossible without being upbeat and positive. Telling people they are crap, been crap, are crap when they already know it rarely leads to improvement. Getting a bit deep but the human mind bombards itself with more negative messages than positives ones, and the mind stores that negativity.

Debating in public poor performance generally ends up being negative as fans lurch from A its great = Barnsley, B its all shite = Brentford Millwall ...  Anything a Manager says post match should be taken with a large does of salt because they will attempt to, and should avoid B.

Positives and strengths have to be acknowledged all the time in order to address the weaknesses. Your good at this but need to work on that v that's was poor, this was poor ...

In Wengers case it could be a case of confirmation bias. He is told its wrong, the results and data says its wrong but his own football philosophy like England's decades long application of 4-4-2 tells them they know better. 

[formerly known as ivan]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

10+ goals unlikely you are joking you must be surely, he will get at least 15 maybe more.

Ha! He will be back on the bench by Christmas!

[Olé]

3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I said early in LJs reign , the ideology of something like Arsenal is / can be lovely to watch , but to do so you have to e well drilled and recruit technically great players at your level at least , to make it successful

I think this could be very close to the heart of the issue mate.

I'm struck by the fact that all these players we've endlessly assembled over three transfer windows, I don't know that there is one I can look at and think: finished article, stick him in the team for guaranteed results. Not one of them. They all seem incomplete, raw or with much more to do, to be consistent. Johnson's history of changes to the starting eleven seem to back that up (dropping many of his signings) and I suspect it is only a matter of time before Diedhiou is "rested" too.

And yet we play a game that by Johnson's own admission in his interviews, he expects the players to execute a gameplan that he apparently has absolute faith in, often without any significant plan B. There is a disconnect between buying all these promising but incomplete players (people like Paterson - runs about a lot but no way is he a consistent 46 game a season player) and then expecting them to have the quality to perform an apparently complex, inflexible pattern of play.

I realise that by their nature the 'finished article' type players cost millions of pounds and play in the Premiership, but I do think you make a really important point about this conflict between what Johnson wants the team to do and the players he keeps buying. He'd have been better off not buying the 10-15 odd £1m+ players he's bought, and just sticking £20m on a top class central midfielder. Not one player he's bought is such a significant upgrade that his plans are being executed.

[Abraham Romanovich]

Can I just say how much I enjoy reading @Olé and @spudski input and analysis of matches.

Thank you both.

 

[Olé]

2 hours ago, samo II said:

That is an excellent and insightful book.

While we're mentioning books about tactics, can I commend to everyone 'The Mixer' by Michael Cox, which came out over the summer. It covers the tactical progression of football, specifically in England, through the lens of the 25 years of the Premiership. Each of the 25 seasons is used to explain some evolution in footballing tactics and the impact or success it brought, with examples in each case. It's everything from some of Allardyce's innovations through to how to execute the false nine. It's not a textbook, it's very readable and entertaining, even if a lot of the anecdotes are harvested from other biographies, it does get you thinking about the football you watch.

The deconstruction of Keegan's "tactics" is particularly funny/shocking in equal proportions, and the insight into how Ferguson and Queiroz effectively broke down and re-tooled a top side simply to eradicate perceived weaknesses in Europe, absolutely fascinating.

[exAtyeoMax]

25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I was replying to your number 2 as I generalisation - I can't say if Lee Johnson is being extreme as I rarely listen/read what he says post match because I do not expect him to say anything of much significance.    

Creating challenge states, growth mindsets is difficult, nigh on impossible without being upbeat and positive. Telling people they are crap, been crap, are crap when they already know it rarely leads to improvement. Getting a bit deep but the human mind bombards itself with more negative messages than positives ones, and the mind stores that negativity.

Debating in public poor performance generally ends up being negative as fans lurch from A its great = Barnsley, B its all shite = Brentford Millwall ...  Anything a Manager says post match should be taken with a large does of salt because they will attempt to, and should avoid B.

Positives and strengths have to be acknowledged all the time in order to address the weaknesses. Your good at this but need to work on that v that's was poor, this was poor ...

In Wengers case it could be a case of confirmation bias. He is told its wrong, the results and data says its wrong but his own football philosophy like England's decades long application of 4-4-2 tells them they know better. 

I think that's why I preferred Cotts' post match interview. You could tell if he was fuming but he'd blame the pitch, the weather, the ref - basically anyone else but the players (in public). I just don't think LJ's approach is constructive, may be he's not capable of constructive criticism? 

[cityshippers]

I just do not see what our game plan is. Im not sure the players know at times. Just very frustrating where was the closing down we saw at Barnsley and Birmingham ?

Big man up front no width, all down the middle v millwall which suites them. Our subs very rarly have an impact as they seem to be like for like, just like any new signings. I guess with what we have added to the squad it was always going to be another struggle hoping that the players from last season could step up with a years more experience. Well lets hope so!

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I believe McCarthy signed both Waghorn and Garner for just £2m - they're banging in the goals and will probably contniue to do so.

Johnson pays £7m(?) for Fammy and brings in Woodrow - neither of whom who on the early evidence are gonna set the world alight.

 

1 hour ago, bearded_red said:

His team also managed to keep a clean sheet against Brentford yesterday while an injury crisis meant his entire back four were fullbacks.

AND Ipswich have played the exact four teams we have so far: Barnsley, Millwall, Birmingham and Brentford and won all four games!

I doubt Ipswich will be 'up there' come the end of the season, they have simply just been getting the job done against average/poor teams.

Concerning.

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I think that's why I preferred Cotts' post match interview. You could tell if he was fuming but he'd blame the pitch, the weather, the ref - basically anyone else but the players (in public). I just don't think LJ's approach is constructive, may be he's not capable of constructive criticism? 

I think you've got to read the fans feelings after a game and react accordingly. I came out yesterday thinking to myself, 'the last thing I want to hear now is excuses or analysis'... Sometimes you have to read situations. You get exactly the same verbatim whatever the situation with LJ... It's his weakness Imo. Way too placid and level headed all the time. Sometimes I'd like to see him show some emotion and outward passion. I think it would benefit him with certain parts of the fan base. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I believe McCarthy signed both Waghorn and Garner for just £2m - they're banging in the goals and will probably contniue to do so.

Johnson pays £7m(?) for Fammy and brings in Woodrow - neither of whom who on the early evidence are gonna set the world alight.

I know which two I'd rather have.

Have to confess - if we'd been in for Waghorn and / or Garner I'd have been very underwhelmed

Im amazed at their, and Ipswichs start tbh (Tho I'm a MM fan)

Maybe I was wrong - But Whether those two continue to fire over the season will be interesting

[exAtyeoMax]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think you've got to read the fans feelings after a game and react accordingly. I came out yesterday thinking to myself, 'the last thing I want to hear now is excuses or analysis'... Sometimes you have to read situations. You get exactly the same verbatim whatever the situation with LJ... It's his weakness Imo. Way too placid and level headed all the time. Sometimes I'd like to see him show some emotion and outward passion. I think it would benefit him with certain parts of the fan base. 

That's why I loved Marv so much, after a 3-0 drubbing against Millwall (I think, several years ago) he came out and said "god we were sh*t". 

[bearded_red]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

AND Ipswich have played the exact four teams we have so far: Barnsley, Millwall, Birmingham and Brentford and won all four games!

I doubt Ipswich will be 'up there' come the end of the season, they have simply just been getting the job done against average/poor teams.

Concerning.

Likewise I very much doubt Ipswich will be anything like up there as with their squad I'm pretty sure they'll be a lot nearer being 'down there'. 

As you say though 12 points from the same teams we have 5. A much better start before they, like us, start playing teams with stronger squads and, frankly, better players.

This won't be popular, but you give Lee Johnson the squad that Ipswich have and have had the last couple of seasons and I'm pretty sure they get relegated. Not so with Mick..

[Kid in the Riot]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Have to confess - if we'd been in for Waghorn and / or Garner I'd have been very underwhelmed

Im amazed at their, and Ipswichs start tbh (Tho I'm a MM fan)

Maybe I was wrong - But Whether those two continue to fire over the season will be interesting

 

1 minute ago, bearded_red said:

Likewise I very much doubt Ipswich will be anything like up there as with their squad I'm pretty sure they'll be a lot nearer being 'down there'. 

As you say though 12 points from the same teams we have 5. A much better start before they, like us, start playing teams with stronger squads and, frankly, better players.

This won't be popular, but you give Lee Johnson the squad that Ipswich have and have had the last couple of seasons and I'm pretty sure they get relegated. Not so with Mick..

I'd 100% have MM down here. Has barely had a penny to spend at Portman Rd. A million each for Garner and Waghorn has constituted a big summer spend for them. Imagine what MM could do down here with the best part of £25m to spend!

[slartibartfast]

Re. thread title........there I was thinking we drew 0-0, how wrong must I have been ?

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

I was replying to your number 2 as I generalisation - I can't say if Lee Johnson is being extreme as I rarely listen/read what he says post match because I do not expect him to say anything of much significance.    

Creating challenge states, growth mindsets is difficult, nigh on impossible without being upbeat and positive. Telling people they are crap, been crap, are crap when they already know it rarely leads to improvement. Getting a bit deep but the human mind bombards itself with more negative messages than positives ones, and the mind stores that negativity.

Debating in public poor performance generally ends up being negative as fans lurch from A its great = Barnsley, B its all shite = Brentford Millwall ...  Anything a Manager says post match should be taken with a large does of salt because they will attempt to, and should avoid B.

Positives and strengths have to be acknowledged all the time in order to address the weaknesses. Your good at this but need to work on that v that's was poor, this was poor ...

In Wengers case it could be a case of confirmation bias. He is told its wrong, the results and data says its wrong but his own football philosophy like England's decades long application of 4-4-2 tells them they know better. 

I don't disagree with anything you say, and confirmation bias is a factor in the thinking of fans as much as managers!

Being critIcal doesn't have to be slagging off individuals, as Wenger did yesterday and Mourinho has done with Luke Shaw for instance, it means just what you say above.

I suppose all I'm saying is I fear managers can have a superficial understanding of the subject, not getting past page 1of the manual. Then they can delude themselves that all is well when it isn't.

[Northern Cider Ed]

18 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

AND Ipswich have played the exact four teams we have so far: Barnsley, Millwall, Birmingham and Brentford and won all four games!

I doubt Ipswich will be 'up there' come the end of the season, they have simply just been getting the job done against average/poor teams.

Concerning.

Against Brentford (they won 2-0) they had 35% possession and 5 goal attempts to Brentfords 22

Against Millwall (they won 4-3) they had 44% possession and 8 goal attempts to Millwalls 23

Against Barnsley (they won 2-1) they had 50% possession and 9 goal attemps to Barnsleys 25

Against Birmingham (they won 1-0) they had 54% possession and 8 goal attempts to Birminghams 12

 

They are either extremely clinical, lucky or have and amazing GK. Im going for lucky. I know an Ipswich season ticket holder and he wants McCarthy out despite 12 points from 12. The football is dire. 

Im following them a bit as I bet another mate £100 we would finish above Ipswich and im starting to get worried.

 

[chinapig]

What a refreshing thread this is, lots of intelligent debate and no sign of anybody who thinks posting LJ out is the soul of wit or that abusing him or fellow posters passes for debate.

Proves you can point out legitimate concerns and have legitimate disagreements without that stuff.

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

 

As so often the theory is fine but misinterpreted and misapplied. Simply saying 'we'll take the positives and move on ' is not enough and just becomes a way of shutting down debate. It is empty of content if you don't also acknowledge the negatives and work on improving.

Sports psychology emphasises focussing on what you do well and right over lingering on mistakes and errors. It comes from the States and the Positive Psychology movement, which moved away from the old European/ psychoanalytic focus on problems and what is wrong with your life, and focussed on what is good and right and awesome!

Have a nice day. And get your teeth bleached.

[exAtyeoMax]

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Sports psychology emphasises focussing on what you do well and right over lingering on mistakes and errors. It comes from the States and the Positive Psychology movement, which moved away from the old European/ psychoanalytic focus on problems and what is wrong with your life, and focussed on what is good and right and awesome!

Have a nice day. And get your teeth bleached.

Is that why in the US they (allegedly) don't show the 100m live on telly?

 

 

[samo II]

Brilliant example of a manager who can set a team up that has the tactical nous to adapt to another side's game plan and build a platform to play off taking place right now in the Huddersfield Newcastle game.

Huddersfield set up and kicked off with their swashbuckling, forward thinking style, putting Newcastle under great pressure.  But Newcastle have identified they are being overrun out wide, and this is being dictated by Mooy, so are doubling up in those areas and hunting Mooy down, forcing him further back.

Benitez is an absolute master are imbuing his sides with the flexibility and intelligence to adapt to and counter opposing game plans, and brilliant display of it today.