One variable: Hegeler / Baker?

[Tom Fleuriot]

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Don't think many if any would dispute that Hegeler makes us better in possession coming from the back

Think the issue is whether you can afford to sacrifice Bakers better defensive capability for better capability on the ball  - Morrison would have been a nightmare for JH today

Combine them and you have a Premier quality centre half !!!

[KeepUpLino]

5 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

I said exactly this to my friend today, since his exclusion we have looked less than ordinary!! Coincidence?

[Fordy62]

6 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

Good question Tom. 

I'm not sure one change could make such a massive difference. Im afraid our inconsistencies are our biggest problem. Im sure we could deal with it if we were good most of the time, but continuing from last season, our appetites are whetted by 45 minutes of blistering football, only for it not be seen again for 4-5 games. 

It seems when we're good (25% of the time) we're very good. But when we're not good - 75% of the time - we're diabolical. 

[ZiderEyed]

Well Baker impressed me today. We'd have lost that game with JH starting. Ideally I'd quite like to see more of JH in that role, hes obviously better than Baker at bringing the ball out. Interesting thought really, I guess its another cool head in possession with a bit more of a range than you're average centre hald.

[Spoons]

My neck is sore after today! The ball was in the air for the whole game , dying for a player to take control ( like hegeler?) and pass his way out.

not sure if we dropped to their level or we just lacked real quality?!

[RT's Vaseline Tub]

I'd drop Wright as Baker/Hegeler have a bit of everything rather than 2 the same. The only problem is LJ made him Captain so that scuppers my plan somewhat. Korey would have been a better bet keeping the captaincy as never likely to be dropped for loss of form just if injury happens to him...

[ashton_fan]

2 minutes ago, Derek from Nailsea said:

I'd drop Wright as Baker/Hegeler have a bit of everything rather than 2 the same. The only problem is LJ made him Captain so that scuppers my plan somewhat. Korey would have been a better bet keeping the captaincy as never likely to be dropped for loss of form just if injury happens to him...

I thought he could have rested Wright today as he must have played more minutes than the others on top of his recent international matches, I would have started with Baker and Hegeler. I'm not sure about Hegeler in away games at CB but he could make a difference for home games.

[WayOutWest]

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. 

I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

[Dr Balls]

The answer would be to combine them by playing Wright, Hegeler and Baker as a back 3 in a 3-4-2-1 formation, and allow Hegeler to come forward with ball. Play Bryan & Pisano as wing backs because that's what they are already, and most of the time have no one in front of them either as cover or for making crosses. Play Gary O'Neill plus someone better than Pack or Korey in central midfield. Bobby Reid & Paterson then play as a front pair behind Diedhou as the central striker.

A similar formation to Chelsea last season where David Luiz was given freedom to come forward from a back 3.

At the very least it offers a "Plan B", which seems to be something seriously lacking from our coaching team at present.

[WayOutWest]

2 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The answer would be to combine them by playing Wright, Hegeler and Baker as a back 3 in a 3-4-2-1 formation, and allow Hegeler to come forward with ball. Play Bryan & Pisano as wing backs because that's what they are already, and most of the time have no one in front of them either as cover or for making crosses. Play Gary O'Neill plus someone better than Pack or Korey in central midfield. Bobby Reid & Paterson then play as a front pair behind Diedhou as the central striker.

A similar formation to Chelsea last season where David Luiz was given freedom to come forward from a back 3.

At the very least it offers a "Plan B", which seems to be something seriously lacking from our coaching team at present.

I think you have to be a very good team to play 3 at the back. Whilst that would accommodate Hegeler for me that is not the solution. 

Simply put I don't think we are good enough to play that system. 

[GrahamC]

Think the OP has posed a good question- however I think that LJ (rightly in my view) has settled on a Wright/Baker partnership for the season's duration, injury or suspension notwithstanding.

As for Hegeler you can certainly make a case to say he would have given us something different in midfield today, however having seen him struggle with the pace of the English game at times, I'm not sure that Millwall would be his sort of opponent, as they pressed and allowed us little time on the ball.

I'm therefore left unsure as to what circumstances would see Hegeler get a start bar as I said earlier, a ban or injury at the back and am struggling to come up with one...

[Dr Balls]

13 minutes ago, WayOutWest said:

I think you have to be a very good team to play 3 at the back. Whilst that would accommodate Hegeler for me that is not the solution. 

Simply put I don't think we are good enough to play that system. 

Take your point but we were clearly missing something today. Hegeler is not the best defender as a centre half, but what he does have is an ability to retain possession, remain calm and bring the ball forward providing an additional body in midfield moving the ball to our attacking players further up the field. Perhaps we play 4-1-2-3, with Hegeler as a sweeper. It might even help our p!ss poor central midfield.

Play like we did today against better teams than Millwall and even Frankie's acrobatics and some last ditch "putting bodies on the line" defending won't be enough to save us.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think the OP has posed a good question- however I think that LJ (rightly in my view) has settled on a Wright/Baker partnership for the season's duration, injury or suspension notwithstanding.

As for Hegeler you can certainly make a case to say he would have given us something different in midfield today, however having seen him struggle with the pace of the English game at times, I'm not sure that Millwall would be his sort of opponent, as they pressed and allowed us little time on the ball.

I'm therefore left unsure as to what circumstances would see Hegeler get a start bar as I said earlier, a ban or injury at the back and am struggling to come up with one...

Bought without a real idea / thought , how we were going to use him IMHO Graham

[Wrongagain]

Biggest tactical difference - we are used to seeing Flinty giving defences nightmares with set pieces - he is not there WTF are the other BIG defenders doing now? There is a reason Flint has been scoring and he did not do that from outside the box!

[WayOutWest]

He is a conundrum. When he was bought to the club it would be interesting to see what position management saw him in. 

He is not likely to be picked as a centre half. Therefore, it was as a midfielder?  A position he has not secured. Maybe they bought him in to push Pack/Smith/O'Neil, but has not convinced. 

 

[David Brent]

I pondered the same during the game. Baker liked the long ball today and rarely carries it forward like Hegeler, a bit like Flint. 

I came to the conclusion that had Hegeler been playing it would definitely have been a different outcome, but could easily have gone either way.

[MarkRed!]

Hegeler knitted everything together and enabled us to build from the back. 1st half at Brum he was immense. 2nd half johnson was outmanoeuvred. Hegeler is then dropped and our defenders just don't link the play and cannot play that driving pass that takes us forward. It is sideways and backwards. Ultimately it ends up with a hoof. Personally do not see why Hegeler was dropped. If we need someone physical in there then it is Baker or Wright. Last 2 games we have been shite and barely threatened Brentford or Millwall. Surely LJ can see this...... 

[BCFC Rich]

To Hegeler is a CB or CM. So why not play him in that role? Have him play deep CM/CB pushing forward. When we're in possession he can bring it forward from that back but can drop in when we're not. Means we have a solid CB partnership in Bailey, Baker (who were great today) and gives more license to Joe and Pisano to push on.

Somewhere between 5 at the back and 4 with one just in front.

[Dr Balls]

38 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Hegeler knitted everything together and enabled us to build from the back. 1st half at Brum he was immense. 2nd half johnson was outmanoeuvred. Hegeler is then dropped and our defenders just don't link the play and cannot play that driving pass that takes us forward. It is sideways and backwards. Ultimately it ends up with a hoof. Personally do not see why Hegeler was dropped. If we need someone physical in there then it is Baker or Wright. Last 2 games we have been shite and barely threatened Brentford or Millwall. Surely LJ can see this...... 

I would really like to think so too, but past experience does not make me hopeful!

Talking of what LJ sees from the sidelines, why are we only seeing replays on the screens from a camera at pitch level? Sitting much higher up in the stand, it makes you appreciate how poor the overall view of the pitch is from down at that level. Perhaps that explains why in post-match interviews, LJ seems to be describing a different game from the one that the rest of us watched!

[brady bunch]

I have seen all our 4 league games, based on what I have seen, we need to find room for Hegeler somewhere!

far better footballer then any other CB OR CM that we have. 

Wright is the person to give way for me, but given what LJ said about him I think he is undropable.....

 

 

[Cider Army]

Hegeler would be great playing in front of the two centre backs his ability to sweep up play create a pass,But I just can't see Johnson doing this.Another wasted player we have. 

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

Good question.  Personally I don't think it would've made too much difference today in terms of bringing the ball out.  In fact Baker did have a bit of a run with the ball into nosebleed territory.  We would definitely have lost out aerially today.  I think @Olé has mentioned that Hegeler does win first ball, but perhaps not today v Morison.

9 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don't think many if any would dispute that Hegeler makes us better in possession coming from the back

Think the issue is whether you can afford to sacrifice Bakers better defensive capability for better capability on the ball  - Morrison would have been a nightmare for JH today

Combine them and you have a Premier quality centre half !!!

Yes, agree.  Maybe not a nightmare.

8 hours ago, Derek from Nailsea said:

I'd drop Wright as Baker/Hegeler have a bit of everything rather than 2 the same. The only problem is LJ made him Captain so that scuppers my plan somewhat. Korey would have been a better bet keeping the captaincy as never likely to be dropped for loss of form just if injury happens to him...

Not saying I'd drop Wright, but I'd like to see these two in partnership at some point.  Wright's sideways (but behind the player) passing annoys me...and it slows the tempo.  There was enough time and space at times to pass in front so Baker, Pisano and Bryan don't have to go back, retrieve the ball and then find themselves closed down and angles restricted.

8 hours ago, dave36 said:

Biggest tactical difference - we are used to seeing Flinty giving defences nightmares with set pieces - he is not there WTF are the other BIG defenders doing now? There is a reason Flint has been scoring and he did not do that from outside the box!

Both Baker and Hegeler have scored this season, in fact Hegeler could quite easily have 4 goaks to his name already.  Pisano almost got one today.  I think we look as equal a threat without Flint.  In fact we are less predictable.  Everything went through Flint, so was easier to set up and defend against.  Now we can have different set piece routines.

[havanatopia]

Can somebody please tell LJ that he is allowed to drop Wright and give the arm band to his sub captain?

Talking of captaincy; I wonder if there is a correlation between Korey losing it and his dip in form?

There is never an easy way to tell a player the arm band is not his anymore but with Lee J I am sure he went out of his way to explain the facts of life to Korey in such a way that he thought was with the utmost empathy and understanding. The problem is it probably came across as if Korey was a completely useless captain and should just concentrate on his football or he would be dropped to the reserves.

[1960maaan]

I honestly think Wright/Baker is an improvement from Flint/A.N.Other.  I also think that Hegeler playing yesterday we would have lost.
That's not to say I don't like him as CB , and against footballing teams he'd do OK, but yesterday their single simple tactic pulled our defence apart in a way that would exposed Heglers lack of pace. Where he would have improved us is taking the ball forward into the MF space left when CM spread. I thought that Baker and Wright did ok at this , but Hegeler would have been better. It would also mean more space for that long ball to their forwards .

For the Watford game I'd like to see LJ try a MF 3 , Hegeler in the middle with 2 runners either side. This may lead to one up front which I know annoys some, but with Eliasson and ODowda on the wings with licence to push on we may not loose too much attacking threat. 
If He's is to play CB I can only see it in a 3 as those last ditch tackles yesterday would be less likely simply due to his pace.

[old_eastender]

Hegeler definitely helps us link defence to attack, by his ability to bring the ball out and pass to a teammate (you'd like to think that was a pre-requisite for any professional footballer but on the evidence of our last 2.5 games it's clearly not). Trouble is Hegeler is certainly not as good a CB as either Wright or Baker though, Hegeler was partially culpable for the Brum winning goal for example.

As others have said, I'd play him as midfield anchor, but LJ is on record as stating that Hegeler can't play as one of a central midfield two.  

[Rocking Red Cyril]

11 hours ago, WayOutWest said:

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. 

I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

' Flint situation resolved '

If he is still under contract to Bristol City play him. we are a more secure organised defensive unit with Flint playing. Flint gives his all always and I am sorry but even if he has had his head turned he will not let you down. Play Flint !!!!!

[chinapig]

14 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Hegeler definitely helps us link defence to attack, by his ability to bring the ball out and pass to a teammate (you'd like to think that was a pre-requisite for any professional footballer but on the evidence of our last 2.5 games it's clearly not). Trouble is Hegeler is certainly not as good a CB as either Wright or Baker though, Hegeler was partially culpable for the Brum winning goal for example.

As others have said, I'd play him as midfield anchor, but LJ is on record as stating that Hegeler can't play as one of a central midfield two.  

So why can he not play 4-3-2-1 I wonder?

[spudski]

Maybe yesterday was a good time to play Wright/Baker.

However...I'd much rather see a Hegeler/Baker partnership.

Hegeler isn't your traditional British CB. But he does win first balls and is effective in the air, both in defence and attack. He's deceiving in his style.

Baker is solid, but also showed an ability yesterday, to take the ball out from defence and dribble into the opponents half, as does Hegeler.

Wright is solid...but imo, he's slower than a sinking battleship and doesn't have the adaptability and other strengths that Hegeler and Baker both possess, which imo, would give you an edge in this division.

[Flagon]

I feel like Baker is a more solid defender who was better placed to deal with Millwall's aggressive play but you definitely lose the quality on the ball that Hegeler offers.