Eni Aluko / Mark Sampson (Merged)

[Thatwasclose]

5 hours ago, SARJ said:

As someone of Israeli heritage, I could inform her what actually constitutes racism. I get verbally battered on a daily basis, usually to do with the size of my nose, but I say, take it in your stride and fire back, don't get so childish or offended about things.

The bloke made an off colour joke. In no way was it racist. At not 1 point did he refer to the colour of her skin or any racial features.

This post is just ridiculous...

Take it and fire back is really your wise advice? If you are abused racially just take it in your stride huh? 

And your justification that it wasn't racist is because he didn't mention the colour of her skin or racial features???

Let me give you a simple example: 

on Monday a shopkeeper could close the door as a non white person aproaches at 9.59pm and say to you 'sorry we close at 10pm sir...... and then Tuesday he could choose to let a white male in at 10.01pm saying 'we are closed but for you I'll stay open for 5 more minutes' and that would be racism without mentioning colour or facial features.

...and you are the one saying you could inform her what constitutes racism?

 

[CotswoldRed]

10 hours ago, Robbored said:

It gives the impression that the "victim" is a bit of a snowflake........

And she'll now have to watch everything she says in life as she'll be under scrutiny herself. 

[CIDER NOT CIDRE]

I wouldn't say it's racism as such. There is no detrimental comment regarding her race, HOWEVER it is a unprofessional and horrendous comment to make.

Imagine it the other way round and we in England had had an epidemic in which thousands died, some of which you may have known. Imagine now, someone from another race/country coming and making light of such an event. You would be angry and possibly upset. I know I would.

I'm struggling to see how people could defend such a comment. I don't think it's racist however, just a very crude and inappropriate joke.

[Maesknoll Red]

5 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

 

I don't know what you do for a living but imagine as part of your job a manager in a prestigious part of the company gives you lots of work and occasionally says things that you find offensive. Your company starts a campaign to make sure everyone is happy at work and as part of this you tell them the things that he said that offended you. The manager of that prestigious department immediately stops giving you any work. Are you going to think fair enough maybe I'm not up to the job anymore or assume its as a result of what you said?

It takes a fair bit to offend me, brought up with the old adage about sticks and stones, but if a Manager offended me, I'd pull them at the time and confront them, if I didn't have the balls to do that, I wouldn't be comfortable to go telling tales two years later!!  

[Bs11lad]

11 hours ago, downendcity said:

Which one is Chas and which one is Dave?

All of them

[Paulton Red]

I've not read through the thread but it's odd that manager who played her  then dropped her was a racist and that she accepted £80k rather than stand up for her principle. How can any manager do 'the job' without ensuring a proportionate number of ethnic origins rather than the proportionate skilled players 

[Guest]

I find all of this to be a bit 'He said, she said' and trial by social media has now begun.

If MS said the things attributed to him, he's an idiot. No matter what, he's now damaged goods.

If EA was so upset by MS, then why take the hush money (it was a confidentiality agreement remember)? No matter what she does now, she'll just be accused of playing the race card, irrespective of whether she has a genuine complaint, by some quarters. She is also damaged goods.

This will all make the news for a while and die down - it will be forgotten. In the long run, these two people now have damaged reputations, rightly or wrongly.

We now wait to see who has the best PR.

[steveybadger]

This is the interviewer's take on it (Daniel Taylor, well respected award winning journo who amongst other things helped break the sexual abuse in football scandal). Helps clarify the issues i think:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/22/eni-aluko-interview-10-questions-the-fa-must-answer?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[The Original OTIB]

The trouble with this type of hysteria is that it leads to reinvention of the truth. Just look at how the world media are reinventing history such that the American Civil War was all about Slavery. It was not.

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

This is the interviewer's take on it (Daniel Taylor, well respected award winning journo who amongst other things helped break the sexual abuse in football scandal). Helps clarify the issues i think:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/22/eni-aluko-interview-10-questions-the-fa-must-answer?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

All that proves to me...is how ridiculous the world has become. Making mountains out of molehills.

Forget about investigations...take this back to a human level.

How soft have some people become?

You have instances of children and families throughout the world being bombed and homeless and starving.

Then you have an uneducated idiot, saying to you the comment about Ebola...and you become 'Distressed'....Distressed FFS.

The old saying of 'sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me, still applies.

Certain people, and certainly many of the snowflake generation, need to grow a backbone and start putting things into perspective.

Why didn't she just think...'the blokes a dick, the world is full of em, tell him to do one'?

That's how it's always worked.

Everyone in life goes through verbal abuse at some point...deal with it...life's a bitch.

Look around the world to see how many idiots there are on the planet...many of them running the world, saying and doing things 'inappropriate'.

And then someone gets 'Distressed' over an uneducated dick of a comment. FFS...sometimes you just want to stop the planet and jump off.

[SARJ]

11 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

This post is just ridiculous...

Take it and fire back is really your wise advice? If you are abused racially just take it in your stride huh? 

And your justification that it wasn't racist is because he didn't mention the colour of her skin or racial features???

Let me give you a simple example: 

on Monday a shopkeeper could close the door as a non white person aproaches at 9.59pm and say to you 'sorry we close at 10pm sir...... and then Tuesday he could choose to let a white male in at 10.01pm saying 'we are closed but for you I'll stay open for 5 more minutes' and that would be racism without mentioning colour or facial features.

...and you are the one saying you could inform her what constitutes racism?

 

Not ridiculous at all, I just get the impression that because I'm of an ethnic minority and don't agree with your opinion you're getting all hissy about it.

Yes I get verbal abuse on a daily basis, examples including: "you f-ing Jew", "Your nose always smells the money" etc. I decide to take it as banter and give a few digs back. That way it becomes banter and not taken seriously, which is just what happened in this case, an off-colour joke. If I was more of a pu**y like so many people these days I could choose to get offended and could have easily had colleagues fired. But what good would that do except fuel the fire of the political correctness brigade?

It is not racist. He didn't refer to her skin colour or racial features whatsoever. Same as when people at football sing that Birmingham "smells of curry" that is not bloody racist. If he would have reffered to her as a black whatever, then yes, by all means, take him to the cleaners, but he made a stupid off color joke that wasn't well received and it's now cost the FA £80k, and we all know the FA make their millions from us supporters, so in the end, we're the ones that suffer.

 

As for the example you provided, yes that is racism as it's active discrimination. However that's going off topic. We're directly debating if what the England Women's coach said was racist. It wasn't. It was a joke about Ebola. Not about her skin colour.

[steveybadger]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

All that proves to me...is how ridiculous the world has become. Making mountains out of molehills.

Forget about investigations...take this back to a human level.

How soft have some people become?

You have instances of children and families throughout the world being bombed and homeless and starving.

Then you have an uneducated idiot, saying to you the comment about Ebola...and you become 'Distressed'....Distressed FFS.

The old saying of 'sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me, still applies.

Certain people, and certainly many of the snowflake generation, need to grow a backbone and start putting things into perspective.

Why didn't she just think...'the blokes a dick, the world is full of em, tell him to do one'?

That's how it's always worked.

Everyone in life goes through verbal abuse at some point...deal with it...life's a bitch.

Look around the world to see how many idiots there are on the planet...many of them running the world, saying and doing things 'inappropriate'.

And then someone gets 'Distressed' over an uneducated dick of a comment. FFS...sometimes you just want to stop the planet and jump off.

You are of course entitled to you opinion (there's no but coming...).

My take is that just because this isn't as bad as atrocities committed by and against people throughout the world, doesn't mean that this isn't still a real issue. It's not a question of degrees of bad. 

And i don't think it's even about people taking offense; more trying to ensure others don't face similar issues.

Finally, i don't agree that just because verbal abuse is common it should be accepted. If this was the case there would still be monkey noises heard regularly at football grounds. 

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

You are of course entitled to you opinion (there's no but coming...).

My take is that just because this isn't as bad as atrocities committed by and against people throughout the world, doesn't mean that this isn't still a real issue. It's not a question of degrees of bad. 

And i don't think it's even about people taking offense; more trying to ensure others don't face similar issues.

Finally, i don't agree that just because verbal abuse is common it should be accepted. If this was the case there would still be monkey noises heard regularly at football grounds. 

I agree mate...verbal bullying can be worse than physical.

However...in this particular instance I think some perspective is needed.

'Distress' is not a word I'd describe as a reaction to a few uneducated words by the idiot coach.

[steveybadger]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

I agree mate...verbal bullying can be worse than physical.

However...in this particular instance I think some perspective is needed.

'Distress' is not a word I'd describe as a reaction to a few uneducated words by the idiot coach.

Well i guess it's her distress not yours, and given the historical and ongoing issues facing black players in the sport then i can at least see her point of view.

anyway think we can both agree Mark Sampson's reputation has rightly taken a kicking....

[Red-Robbo]

On 8/22/2017 at 13:26, spudski said:

Unprofessional... Maybe. Racist it is not. 

Agreed.

If he said it - and it's not been proved he did - it shows an ignorance of the Ebola situation in Nigeria and an insensitivity towards the girl's family.  Not, however, racism.

[Buckeyed]

16 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

 

on Monday a shopkeeper could close the door as a non white person aproaches at 9.59pm and say to you 'sorry we close at 10pm sir...... and then Tuesday he could choose to let a white male in at 10.01pm saying 'we are closed but for you I'll stay open for 5 more minutes' and that would be racism without mentioning colour or facial features.

I still don't understand how that would be racism? If on the Monday he refused to let him in due to his ethnicity then fair enough, and if he offers to stay open for 5 minutes later on the Tuesday because of him being white then fair enough.. but from your example you are saying that because he didn't remain open on the Monday for the non-white person he should therefore do the same every day of his life.

[BCFC Rich]

Some of the comments on here a saddening. Some are starting to make me think less of posters I have respect for so I think I'll just post once more here then bow out.

Despite my posting, I don't actually think the incident was racist or at the very least that there was the racist intent. Having said that the only thing that matters is how it was perceived by Aluko. The basic line of criticism on this thread shows why it is difficult to speak up in these scenarios, the general opinion here is that she should man up stop being a snowflake and get on with it. If that is the same environment in the England camp that it would not be a surprise that she didn't speak up immediately. And it exactly this kind of reaction that makes it completely understandable that she would need to break confidentiality after the story broke. 

And the England camp is clearly not perfect and the complaints process is not either. Prior to Aluko Sampson was charged for making similar incentive comments but was cleared in an investigation that did not involve any contact with the player who made the allegation. A member of staff repeatable spoke to players in a mock Caribean voice which led to two complaints, the FA did not investigate because they were not formal complaints. Lianne Sanderson complained that her 50th cap was not acknowledged/celebrated in the way it was for white players. In her 50th cap game, a white player received their 100th and did get this celebratory treatment. After her complaint, she was never been picked again.

And the ridiculous thing is she actually did 'man up and take it' (although she is also criticised for that - she should have come forward straight away etc.) she only mentioned it when the FA asked her to take part in a cultural review the point of this was to identify issues and make improvements - this would seem like a safe time to make a comment. 

After she did comment she was dropped from the England squad never to return despite her experience and continued good form at club level. The FA had to perform a second enquiry after it was shown their initial ruling came with interviewing any of the players named as witnesses. She met the FA for the 2nd enquiry and 24 hours later the FA emailed her to say they were launching an investigation into her work as a sports lawyer. 

I mean I hold to the fact I don't think Sampson was intending offence/racism but it is easy to see this from Aluko's position and it is clear that the FA has a lot of work to do to improve the overall environment.  

 

 

 

 

 

[spudski]

3 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

@spudski, dude, trust me on this It's really not about the mad bants and to laugh it off.

 

The comment made, (I believe there's another player noted  in this according to that Guardian article) is relating directly to the the ethnicity and race of the player. The suggestion is that her family because of where they originate from ( no other reason) are carriers of a deadly disease is vastly insulting and is discriminating against the player and her family purely because of their origins.

 

Transpose it to a home situation. say for example you had a  much loved Great Uncle Fred who lived in a place ( vague description of the area) where Swine Flu was prevalent and you were told by your boss at work,

'Errrr, I hope he doesn't bring that disease with him when he comes to visit, the dirty scoundrel'

Suggests that your Uncle Fred, is some how inferior to your boss, because he lives in an area where the disease is present, is inferior as a person because, he is a scoundrel and implies that he is carrying a deadly disease, all because he is from this vague area.

Said in jest or other wise it is discrimination against him based on assumption.

 

Transpose it back to Aluko, and you have her family insulted, herself insulted and all kinds of implications thereof. The comment is racially charged and is thus racist.

 

It's not about sticks, and stones

 

*sigh*

There are white families that originate from Nigeria....if said to them in the same way, would it be seen as racist if coming from a black coach?

No mention in his comments have alluded to her race. She's just presumed it's racist.

With respect mate....surely you are seeing this through the eyes of someone who's already considered the coach to be racist.

If I said to someone from Nigeria....'Don't be bringing none of that ebola shit over with you'....and you didn't know what colour skin I was speaking too, would you consider that comment racist?

If a black coach said it to a white family from Nigeria....would that be deemed racist?

 

[MarcusX]

21 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

Interesting some of the responses in here, I wish I was surprised but I am not - just another indication that racism is well and truly alive and this thread proves some forms of it will always be tolerated.

The comment made would not have been made had she not been black and of Nigerian origin and that sums it all up. She believes he would not have said it if she was white but then again only he knows in his heart whether that is true or not but the claim is valid, whether it can be proven is another thing.

Some posters in here like should be ashamed of themselves as their responses are dismissive of the whole issue. I often scratch my head and wonder why some people have to go out of their own way to not believe the victim. It's one thing to say I will wait to see the proof but it's another to claim she is a liar. So you really believe a player with over a 100 caps for England decided to make up claims so she could prolong her career or just to get him sacked? She was invited to give feedback and had she not bee invited would probably not have raised this. And what has Sampson done to gain your trust and convince you that he wasn't being racist? Being white I guess.

If someone is wronged and accepts payment for distress caused does that mean they were not wronged in the first place? 

Words on a paper may not look racist but you were not there so can't determine the tone in which they were said so how can you be so sure he wasn't being racist?I wasn't there too and unfortunately in these cases it will go down to he said she said but interesting how many in here are quick to dismiss her claims.

I wish fans would champion for equality and protect rights and freedoms of black players off the pitch the same way they do on the pitch. if you support black players on the pitch why does this stop at the final whistle?

Aluko is black and female, two of three hardest groups to be in (the other group being gay) as a football player - she does not have a history of making false accusations therefore in my view it's not plausible that she would make this claim falsely knowing full well the type of reaction she would get the likes of some of the comments in this thread.

 

If she wasn't Nigerian, she'd be unlikely to have family coming from Nigeria so the comment wouldn't make sense.

you weren't there and can't determine the tone either so what happens to innocent until proven guilty? 

How do you know she doesn't have a history of making false claims? None of the claims she's made have been backed up or proven.

ultimately she took a pay off, that stinks to me. If I felt I was treated unfairly, especially for something I felt so strongly about like my race, then I wouldn't accept any settlement or hush money offer. She says she wanted to prevent other players from going through this, well what Has she done for them for the last 2+ years while she's been silent?

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I've not made any assumptions regarding Mark Sampson, referring the comment and only the comment.

 

If the same thing was said about a white family in Nigeria, guess what, it's still racist, because you know you come from Nigeria, you are a disease carrier et al. White African, is still African and making the comment is still detrimental to them and their heritage.

 

It's not rocket science, Spud. And your examples are utterly wrong in trying to justify your  position as they exhibit institutionalised racism that is derisory on skin colour, nationality andor ethnicity.

Simply put an example could  go like this.

I dont like football player x because of her attitude, commitment and reluctance to apply herself in training. We have a clash of personalities and I wont be selecting her again because of the disruption to the dressing room harmony and she doesn't fit in with my tactics moving forward.

Still damning, but look no discrimination because of race, and that's where the world of difference comes in.

 

 

 

It's nothing to do with heritage, it's a stupid joke based on where where they are travelling from.

if a white player had family coming back from say holiday or travelling in Nigeria to watch the game and he made the same joke would it be racist?

youve added your own twist to it using terms like "dirty scoundrel" anyway so you've had to exaggerate what was said.

as others have said, the specific words quoted are not racist. You can add your own twist or take on what MS may have been getting at but that's opinion not fact.

[spudski]

11 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I've not made any assumptions regarding Mark Sampson, referring the comment and only the comment.

 

If the same thing was said about a white family in Nigeria, guess what, it's still racist, because you know you come from Nigeria, you are a disease carrier et al. White African, is still African and making the comment is still detrimental to them and their heritage.

 

It's not rocket science, Spud. And your examples are utterly wrong in trying to justify your  position as they exhibit institutionalised racism that is derisory on skin colour, nationality andor ethnicity.

Simply put an example could  go like this.

I dont like football player x because of her attitude, commitment and reluctance to apply herself in training. We have a clash of personalities and I wont be selecting her again because of the disruption to the dressing room harmony and she doesn't fit in with my tactics moving forward.

Still damning, but look no discrimination because of race, and that's where the world of difference comes in.

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree then mate.

'Racism...prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.'

If Sampson said his comment...with that above in his heart, then I would agree.

But we don't know that.

If you take his actual comment...as just a comment....and not knowing what was in his heart, or his intention,...just the words...then it isn't racist.

Saying to someone 'Don't be bringing any Ebola over'...when addressing someone coming over from a Continent that has Ebola...how are those words racist? We don't know what context they were said in. How are those actual words detrimental to someone's heritage, be it black or white, just because they come from a different country? I just can't see the logic in that....Unless said with a superior belief that you are better.

[Cowshed]

Reading other articles Eni Aluko herself could be accused of racism. She is criticising the Mangers selections and liking them to colour. She thinks there is a culture in football, not just England where black and mixed race players are overlooked.

Having watched a fair bit of women's football, England have better players than Aluko who is direct, pacey, but has a touch like a trampoline. England had better, and now England have some of the best players in Europe.

Mark Sampson has been cleared by two investigations -  One by an independent barrister.

This person played 100+ times evidently for a racist culture!!.

She links her omission to an alleged event not to others having superior ability, tactics but due to  colour. Nowhere in interviews does she consider an alternative other than race. That's prejudiced and racist? Investigate that.

 

 

 

[MarcusX]

11 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Marcus mate, the fact that  people are still making differentiation based on colour, is all you need to know on what my answer will be. 

'if it's okay for whitey' or ' It doesnt bother me' is not a defence for it. Simply shouldn't happen and being 'lazy' isn't an excuse either.

Who is noticing colour here? only one side of the fence are hearing a comment about Nigeria - a location - and make it about race or colour... 

[old_eastender]

Whether or not the comments were racist or just ill-thought and unprofessional, the heart of the issue and why so many people are upset by this saga is the totally disproportionate compensation given. £80k is an unjustified large sum of money to pay for someone being "distressed" by a verbal incident like this. Christ, you could lose the use of one of your limbs in a physical criminal assault and be awarded far less a sum in compensation. 

[Red Bill]

Are we not getting a bit oversensitive and precious these days.  When I was at school someone with red hair was "carrot top"; someone a bit small was "shorty"; someone tall was "lofty"; someone called Murphy was "spud"; someone called Miller was "dusty"; someone with glasses was "Four eyes" etc etc.  Nobody took offence, it was part of life and growing up.  If you go looking for something to take offence over you will surely find it.  My name is Riley so I was known as "old mother".  I like to think that it has not ruined my life.

[Unan]

This is a bit racist...

[BigTone]

31 minutes ago, Red Bill said:

Are we not getting a bit oversensitive and precious these days.  When I was at school someone with red hair was "carrot top"; someone a bit small was "shorty"; someone tall was "lofty"; someone called Murphy was "spud"; someone called Miller was "dusty"; someone with glasses was "Four eyes" etc etc.  Nobody took offence, it was part of life and growing up.  If you go looking for something to take offence over you will surely find it.  My name is Riley so I was known as "old mother".  I like to think that it has not ruined my life.

The difference Red is that you have a sense of humour.

[SARJ]

1 hour ago, Red Bill said:

Are we not getting a bit oversensitive and precious these days.  When I was at school someone with red hair was "carrot top"; someone a bit small was "shorty"; someone tall was "lofty"; someone called Murphy was "spud"; someone called Miller was "dusty"; someone with glasses was "Four eyes" etc etc.  Nobody took offence, it was part of life and growing up.  If you go looking for something to take offence over you will surely find it.  My name is Riley so I was known as "old mother".  I like to think that it has not ruined my life.

Finally, somebody gets it.

This whole argument isn't even about racism, it's about how easily offended people get these days. As I've said previously, because of my Israeli heritage, I get a lot of anti-semetic abuse, but you don't catch me grassing up my colleagues looking for £80k handouts.

Likewise I take the mick out of my Caribbean mates (your usual Jerk chicken and marijuana jokes) and we all get on absolutely fine. Too many people are too easily offended these days. Don't build 'em tough like they used to.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 8/22/2017 at 12:15, BigTone said:

Robbo, you can't use that expression

is that not racist

[BigTone]

1 minute ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

is that not racist

is what not racist ?