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Hinds, Moore and Morrell join Cheltenham


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26 minutes ago, lenred said:

We were a league below Joe regardless of where we were in the league. Tammy played week in week out against players a league below his parent club and reaped the rewards (as did we of course). But it was 1 league not 2 leagues. He wouldn't have been here if we were div 1.  I think Hinds and Moore should be doing the same and playing in Div 1, one league below their parent club.  Cheltenham are currently 23rd in Div 2. Big big difference imho. 

Yes but I would assume Tammy had suitors in the championship. I'm not sure Morrell or Hinds would have with maybe 500 senior minutes between them. Then for Moore, if he's a nailed on starter at CB I think it's a great move as well. They're all vastly inexperienced at senior level(even Moore with about 25-30 senior appearances at various levels). It's my opinion anyway. I can get why many would question Moore going there but Hinds and Morrell I think it's a perfect fit while a good fit for Moore if he's a starter at CB

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26 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

You would have to ask loans manager Brian Tinnian about that, as far as we know, no club have been interested and Gary is doing us a favor 

Well I guess without knowing all the facts it is hard to be sure. However, we have clearly not planned ahead and it seems a bit of a last minute decision. Smacks of poor management by the club.

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6 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

If that manager were your father though would that not cloud your judgement

It's not just down to LJ though...the players have to agree to it as well. As for clouding my judgement...no...if my father was useless at Football Coaching, I wouldn't.  Especially if it was going to jeapordise my future career as a coach or manager.

Anyway...they look happy enough.

 

1,.jpg

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25 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

If no club was interested, which I'd be very surprised, we should be selling them to Cheltenham, not loaning them.

For the confused likes I'm getting for this comment my point is that if Cheltenham were the only team interested in these players then you'd have to question why they are on our books.

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From the Post's Gregor McGregor

From Jake of Westbury: Why has Taylor Moore dropped down to League Two when he did considerably well for Bury in League One last season?

Gregor McGregor: Well, from what I’ve heard behind the scenes I don’t think Taylor had the best summer in terms of impressing the coaching staff. Certainly there’s a long way to go before he overhauls the likes of Nathan Baker and Aden Flint at centre-back, and he’s probably looking to compete with Bailey Wright for the spot as a more mobile centre-back or as the second choice right-back. Zak Vyner has overtaken him here however. The step down to League 2? That will be to guarantee him more first-team football. Lee Johnson knows that Moore will get a fair crack at Cheltenham and there won’t be so much pressure, even given the fact that the former England U20 man did well at Bury last season. What’s the biggest slap in the face for Taylor, perhaps, and I still need to get some confirmation of this, is that he rejected the chance to play at the U20 World Cup, which he was still eligible for, to boost his chances at Bristol City. 

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2 minutes ago, super_scotty_murray said:

Well I guess without knowing all the facts it is hard to be sure. However, we have clearly not planned ahead and it seems a bit of a last minute decision. Smacks of poor management by the club.

how so?,

Perhaps we were waiting to see if they could break in to the team, or see if other clubs were intrested before we let them go,

It's about as far from poor management you could get,

But still any excuse for some to have a go,

Lets wait for the real problems start to mount instead of using every littler pathetic excuse to have a go at Johnson,  thats tiresome and boring and shows an agenda, when he fails spectacularly by xmas again then start having ago 

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29 minutes ago, Chivs said:

So you don't actually know how any of this works (like me) but you are an expert at knowing what shouldn't happen.

I guess of the 23 teams in Lge 1 that maybe 6 want to take "promising players" but 1 of those could be Rochdale and you wouldn't send anyone to Rochdale least of all a youngster.

That leaves 5 teams some of whom may not play football or have the coaching facilities that suit us.  So, we're down to a handful of teams but some of them may have managers with sons in the game so that rules them out as they will have sorted it all out over the Roast Beef.

If only City had your expertise to get the last couple of clubs available in Lge 1 to take our "promising youngsters" rather than the other 43 teams, in Championship and Premiership, who are also plying their wares.

We'd best shut down Otib then as none of us works f/t in league football. 

Precisely what grounds you have to say only 5 teams in L1 would take Hinds on loan I have no idea. He's from the Hertfordshire area. Living in Bristol is living away from home for him. He could literally go anywhere. He was highly rated before coming here, so there's no reason to believe he is less so after making two impressive cup appearances.

He has played for a decent L2 side so loaning him to a bad one seems like a step backward for the lad.

Luckily it's only 4 months, so hopefully he'll get lots of play time, score goals and then return here or be loaned at a more progressive level.

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2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

how so?,

Perhaps we were waiting to see if they could break in to the team, or see if other clubs were intrested before we let them go,

It's about as far from poor management you could get,

But still any excuse for some to have a go,

Lets wait for the real problems start to mount instead of using every littler pathetic excuse to have a go at Johnson,  thats tiresome and boring and shows an agenda, when he fails spectacularly by xmas again then start having ago 

I'm not having a go at little Lee here at all. I don't know how these arrangements get setup. I just think these players should be playing a higher level than bottom of league 2 and not convinced that GJ is the best coach to bring them on with his history on youth development.

It just has a feel of GJ getting better players than he'd be able to get without his son happening to be manager of that team.

Its great that the players will hopefully be getting lots of game time and the developement and experience that comes with that. I just think we should be aiming higher than this for our player development.

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What is the purpose of a loan in football? To provide a player with regular first-team football, in order for the player to gain experience playing football against players of all ages and abilities, and to further their development regarding on-pitch performance by allowing them to put their skills to the test against professional footballers.

Joe Morrell. Everyone seems to agree that this is a good move for him, as do I. However, I feel that if he can't show signs of promise at Cheltenham, his City career may be about to come to an end, as he seems to have lost his former "wonderkid" status to newer academy prospects, such as Lloyd Kelly and Zak Vyner.

Taylor Moore. He did well at Bury, it seems, but at the end of the day was not a "star" player who was guaranteed a start week in, week out, in League One. At Cheltenham, he will be something of a coup for them, and there is every chance that he will be their 'Tammy' of the defence and play every match that he is elegible to. Remember - the purpose of a loan is to provide regular first team football to aid development, and so yes, Taylor will be playing one league below compared to last season, against players of lesser quality, but he will hopefully be playing constantly, and this, I would argue, will be better for his development than playing sporadically for a League One team.

Freddie Hinds. He's scored two wonder goals in two League Cup matches. He looks very promising indeed. But scoring two wonder goals does not immediately make you suitable for a League One team. This will be his first ever professional loan, and his first ever true taste of first-team professional football. On the one hand, the chances of a League One team wanting to take him on loan off the basis of two good performances in the Mickey Mouse Nonsense Cup are very low, as is the chance of him most definitely being ready to play in League One. Tinman, LJ and the rest of the backroom staff see Hinds in training every day, and so I believe their judgement is best as to what league Hinds will develop best in. Once again, Hinds is a very promising talent, and I feel that it is better to ease him into professional football at a League Two club where he will hopefully be one of the first names on the teamsheet for four months, rather than get eaten up and battered by being thrown into the deep end at a League One club, where he may end up simply warming the bench if he does not continue like he has been playing in the Carabao Cup.

And finally - the fact that the trio have been loaned to Cheltenham Town, Gary Johnson's club. I think @spudski has put it better than I can, and I agree wholeheartedly with him. The family link, I believe, will significantly increase the chances of this being a successful loan spell for all three of these players, because of the more honest and direct communication between the two.

Hopefully, come the next transfer window, a few of the nay-sayers on this thread will be eating their hats.

 

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48 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

You would have to ask loans manager Brian Tinnian about that, as far as we know, no club have been interested and Gary is doing us a favor 

If he's doing City a favour they won't be getting game time surely, I mean he wouldn't put the needs of another club over those of his employer? BT won't be straying from the party line as hes a clubman so I doubt if the club would ever say that other teams were interested.

I think everyone thinks that the Morrell move is good for him (if he gets get time) For the other two, possibly playing in a struggling side at league 2 level isn't guaranteed to do much good for them. Moore according to Bury fans was of league 1 standard in a pretty poor side. Hinds, early days but would anyone have been surprised if he hadn't been a regular for Luton this season - you know the side that made the playoffs a few months ago?

If being local is so crucial then why wasn't Moore shipped to Whaddon Road last term?

I think the GJ/LJ debate splits the fanbase but it does look like doing a favour to dad again.

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6 minutes ago, Lympsham Red said:

What is the purpose of a loan in football? To provide a player with regular first-team football, in order for the player to gain experience playing football against players of all ages and abilities, and to further their development regarding on-pitch performance by allowing them to put their skills to the test against professional footballers.

Joe Morrell. Everyone seems to agree that this is a good move for him, as do I. However, I feel that if he can't show signs of promise at Cheltenham, his City career may be about to come to an end, as he seems to have lost his former "wonderkid" status to newer academy prospects, such as Lloyd Kelly and Zak Vyner.

Taylor Moore. He did well at Bury, it seems, but at the end of the day was not a "star" player who was guaranteed a start week in, week out, in League One. At Cheltenham, he will be something of a coup for them, and there is every chance that he will be their 'Tammy' of the defence and play every match that he is elegible to. Remember - the purpose of a loan is to provide regular first team football to aid development, and so yes, Taylor will be playing one league below compared to last season, against players of lesser quality, but he will hopefully be playing constantly, and this, I would argue, will be better for his development than playing sporadically for a League One team.

Freddie Hinds. He's scored two wonder goals in two League Cup matches. He looks very promising indeed. But scoring two wonder goals does not immediately make you suitable for a League One team. This will be his first ever professional loan, and his first ever true taste of first-team professional football. On the one hand, the chances of a League One team wanting to take him on loan off the basis of two good performances in the Mickey Mouse Nonsense Cup are very low, as is the chance of him most definitely being ready to play in League One. Tinman, LJ and the rest of the backroom staff see Hinds in training every day, and so I believe their judgement is best as to what league Hinds will develop best in. Once again, Hinds is a very promising talent, and I feel that it is better to ease him into professional football at a League Two club where he will hopefully be one of the first names on the teamsheet for four months, rather than get eaten up and battered by being thrown into the deep end at a League One club, where he may end up simply warming the bench if he does not continue like he has been playing in the Carabao Cup.

And finally - the fact that the trio have been loaned to Cheltenham Town, Gary Johnson's club. I think @spudski has put it better than I can, and I agree wholeheartedly with him. The family link, I believe, will significantly increase the chances of this being a successful loan spell for all three of these players, because of the more honest and direct communication between the two.

Hopefully, come the next transfer window, a few of the nay-sayers on this thread will be eating their hats.

 

Very well thought out and reasoned post.

Expect to get a few 'snakes' and 'rubbishes'

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21 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

We'd best shut down Otib then as none of us works f/t in league football. 

Precisely what grounds you have to say only 5 teams in L1 would take Hinds on loan I have no idea. He's from the Hertfordshire area. Living in Bristol is living away from home for him. He could literally go anywhere. He was highly rated before coming here, so there's no reason to believe he is less so after making two impressive cup appearances.

He has played for a decent L2 side so loaning him to a bad one seems like a step backward for the lad.

Luckily it's only 4 months, so hopefully he'll get lots of play time, score goals and then return here or be loaned at a more progressive level.

Hinds never actually made a 1st team appearance for Luton, so it's not really a backwards step- this will be his first taste of regular 1st team football.We always seem in such a hurry to have players run before they can walk, let the kid get some confidence in L2 before we chuck him in to L1 or the Championship. If he bangs in 10 goals and comes back we'll have no trouble getting him a loan to League 1 or even start using him regularly in the Championship

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55 minutes ago, generation1 said:

leaving the family connection out is difficult but I am sure Fergusan jnr was helped out by his dad from time to time

however I think that the larger picture is being ignored here , while everyone is talking about where we should send them perhaps we should look at the pattern which is emerging .

in Bath ,Cheltenham and Yeovil we are starting to develop a feeder club system where we can farm out players for development in leagues where we otherwise have no control.

whats to say that we will not also get the pick of any promising players they have by this connection

Quite so, although thats assuming none of the three are any better than league 2 standard currently, which in Moores case appears a little odd.

The other point of course is that all three have gone to only one of the abovementioned clubs. Do we seriously think that Yeovil wouldn't have fancied any of them?

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Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, I did say the other week we were going to try and loan Freddie out and we wanted it to be to a League One club - I was told this on good authority too, which I was quite happy with. He's good enough for that level. I have also been extremely outspoken about quite how bad Cheltenham are. They're shocking.  I don't care that much about Moore or Morrell, they haven't shown half as much potential as Hinds, but to loan him out to a relegation League Two side is criminal, I don't care if GJ is in charge there. Absolutely bemusing. I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told, the person who told me it is usually spot on with his info regarding our youth, so we had some change of heart.

 

Absolutely fuming with this.

 

Get the kid some game time where he'll learn, not where he'll be the best player on the pitch by a country mile.

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3 minutes ago, EmersonsRed said:

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, I did say the other week we were going to try and loan Freddie out and we wanted it to be to a League One club - I was told this on good authority too, which I was quite happy with. He's good enough for that level. I have also been extremely outspoken about quite how bad Cheltenham are. They're shocking.  I don't care that much about Moore or Morrell, they haven't shown half as much potential as Hinds, but to loan him out to a relegation League Two side is criminal, I don't care if GJ is in charge there. Absolutely bemusing. I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told, the person who told me it is usually spot on with his info regarding our youth, so we had some change of heart.

 

Absolutely fuming with this.

 

Get the kid some game time where he'll learn, not where he'll be the best player on the pitch by a country mile.

Wonder if Chelsea fans were saying similar.

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8 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

I don't get GJ he's not for trusting youth through the teams he's at, yet he's happy to borrow other(bigger) teams youth players 

Maybe his own team doesn't have youth players. Cheltenham don't have a very big budget so they can't hoard them like City have lately. Every penny they have needs to go on the first team just for them to survive in the league.

I'm also not sure that there were hundreds of young players champing at the bit while Johnson was at City. From memory there were Skuse and Myrie-Williams, who he played, Riberio and Wilson, who he played when they were fit and...er... that's about it. If GJ was holding them back you'd think loads would have come through in the years after he left or failing that gone on to shine elsewhere. Find fault with the Academy for that by all means but I'm not sure it's Gary Johnson's fault.

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4 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Wonder if Chelsea fans were saying similar.

I think Tammy learned a lot with City, which is of course only one division below Chelsea, and a good stepping stone for where he now finds himself. In the Championship, he usually wasn't the best player on the pitch either. Chelsea wouldn't have likely loaned Tammy to us had we been league One. I think that is the issue here with Moore certainly, and to a certain extent Hinds being shipped out to Cheltenham.

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2 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Maybe his own team doesn't have youth players. Cheltenham don't have a very big budget so they can't hoard them like City have lately. Every penny they have needs to go on the first team just for them to survive in the league.

I'm also not sure that there were hundreds of young players champing at the bit while Johnson was at City. From memory there were Skuse and Myrie-Williams, who he played, Riberio and Wilson, who he played when they were fit and...er... that's about it. If GJ was holding them back you'd think loads would have come through in the years after he left or failing that gone on to shine elsewhere. Find fault with the Academy for that by all means but I'm not sure it's Gary Johnson's fault.

What an exciting player he was... Gutted about his injuries, seemingly continued after leaving

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10 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Very well thought out and reasoned post.

Expect to get a few 'snakes' and 'rubbishes'

No snakes or rubbishes from me. It is a very well reasoned post and for the most part I agree with it. I think there are better teams in league 2 these players could have gone to at the very least and also disagree that working with GJ is necessarily a benefit

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13 minutes ago, EmersonsRed said:

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, I did say the other week we were going to try and loan Freddie out and we wanted it to be to a League One club - I was told this on good authority too, which I was quite happy with. He's good enough for that level. I have also been extremely outspoken about quite how bad Cheltenham are. They're shocking.  I don't care that much about Moore or Morrell, they haven't shown half as much potential as Hinds, but to loan him out to a relegation League Two side is criminal, I don't care if GJ is in charge there. Absolutely bemusing. I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told, the person who told me it is usually spot on with his info regarding our youth, so we had some change of heart.

 

Absolutely fuming with this.

 

Get the kid some game time where he'll learn, not where he'll be the best player on the pitch by a country mile.

Important word highlighted. Just because we wanted him to go to a L1 club doesn't mean it's going to happen. Cheltenham may have guaranteed playing time and he can train with us every week. L1 clubs probably wouldn't have made those guarantees. Maybe LJ did want to do his dad a favour, but given what's at stake in modern football I doubt that would be the primary motivation. Hinds is 18 and has never started a league game at any level. 4 months in L2 is fine

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In terms of Morrell, it is definitely a good move and a chance to prove himself.

I was initially unimpressed that Taylor Moore was going there but, reading through people's comments about his attitude and not impressing the coaching staff over the summer, this might be the shock he needs to realise he needs to up his game, combined of course with the benefits of regular games.

Hinds is the one that frustrates me - he turned the game round at Brentford and apparently scored a cracker at Watford. I guess regular football is useful but I do think he could contribute to the first team.

In terms of the fact they have joined Cheltenham, it is frustrating but it must be said that we are in a geographic position where there are not very many clubs you could join and still train with us a few days a week - which I would hope the players are doing. Of the teams in League One, we'd presumably not want to loan to Rovers and even Plymouth is a bit of a commute and then in League Two, we are pretty much talking Cheltenham, Newport, or Swindon (who again I would guess we prefer not to do business with) or Exeter at a push. 

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