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Concourse seating (lack of)


Rich

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1 hour ago, Thatch35 said:

You can sit down all game....

Heavens forbid bringing in rail seats (standing all game too!!).

Personally, prefer to stand enjoying my pint and a pie. Just fine as long as I've got somewhere to put my pint when I eating my pie - other than the top of a curved shaped litter bin or the floor. Would, indeed, prefer to stand up at football as I do when I make a visit to Plainmoor. 

On concourse seating, I'm just thinking of those less able than myself. But if you think that's daft - fine. Sod the less-able, the buggers would get in the way anyhow if there was an incident. 

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3 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Personally, prefer to stand enjoying my pint and a pie. Just fine as long as I've got somewhere to put my pint when I eating my pie - other than the top of a curved shaped litter bin or the floor. Would, indeed, prefer to stand up at football as I do when I make a visit to Plainmoor. 

On concourse seating, I'm just thinking of those less able than myself. But if you think that's daft - fine. Sod the less-able, the buggers would get in the way anyhow if there was an incident. 

I also noticed people are using the Atyeo statue as a drinks table, why oh why can't they clean up their mess afterwards...

 

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9 hours ago, phantom said:

I guess this shows why nothing permanent can happen 

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Sorry, I can't go along with that view, unless you thought seating could go in the central area. If you look at the windows in the photo's, there are concrete pillars that protrude further than the wall, by about 300mm. Those pillars are approximately 4.5m apart, forming twelve bays. Drop down seating or bench seating could be installed in those recesses without impinging on the exhibition floor area, one iota. I believe that it is probably a case of the look on an otherwise empty space which makes the club reluctant to install even the basic form of seating.

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9 hours ago, pongo88 said:

Take your own seat with you 

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There was an elderly chap in the South stand with a tripod seat last match. I'm not sure if they're allowed, obviously they're not very strong and the poles can disappear into painful places, so not ideal for many.

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Sorry boys and girls, I'm back.

Went to the Genting arena (NEC) last night to see the Killers. Capacity 15,800 seating, probably more allowed for standing.

Although there were other smaller hospitality areas, the biggest area, and the one used by the vast majority, was the main Concourse area. It was similar in size to the Dolman concourse, maybe a little bigger, and was absolutely packed. The majority of the crowd entered and filed through that area prior to the gig. It contained bars, food outlets and toilets, just the same as the Dolman concourse. The only difference was, that it had seating areas within the main concourse, adjacent to the main walkway through, and, people were able to eat and drink before the event in relevant comfort, more like human beings as a result.

Why do they meet safety and fire criteria, and our concourse areas can't?

Mark?

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I'm not Mark but can have a crack at some of this.

In a fire situation, the maxiumum absolute allowable time for evacuation of a stand is eight minutes.

Concourse is deemed as a place of safety. It's possible that once everyone inside the concourse that if and when a fire temperature reaches a certain point then auto-ignition comes into play.

Can it be guaranteed that these seats wouldn't ignite in the concourse as people are being evacuated?

Even if they don't set ablaze as such,  the risk of charring with subsequent smoke certainly isn't impossible. Then if people can't see clearly or breathe so easily...

NEC? Impossible to say without seeing any design specs, layout etc.

That's the long answer or the medium answer. Short answer probably anything that can be seen as an additional risk factor, beyond essentials? Isn't happening.

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18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm not Mark but can have a crack at some of this.

In a fire situation, the maxiumum absolute allowable time for evacuation of a stand is eight minutes.

Concourse is deemed as a place of safety. It's possible that once everyone inside the concourse that if and when a fire temperature reaches a certain point then auto-ignition comes into play.

Can it be guaranteed that these seats wouldn't ignite in the concourse as people are being evacuated?

Even if they don't set ablaze as such,  the risk of charring with subsequent smoke certainly isn't impossible. Then if people can't see clearly or breathe so easily...

NEC? Impossible to say without seeing any design specs, layout etc.

That's the long answer or the medium answer. Short answer probably anything that can be seen as an additional risk factor, beyond essentials? Isn't happening.

Thanks for your thoughts and contribution on this subject.

Without meaning to sound rude, are you really serious? You are asking if you can guarantee the seats wouldn't ignite as people are evacuating through the concourse. Do you really think temperatures high enough to make seating combust, would be a place of safety to evacuate through? Peoples skin and clothes would melt before any seating caught fire. If it were that hot in the concourse it would be impossible to enter, there'd be smoke billowing out through the exits, so people would evacuate onto the pitch, that's why the safety gates are there.

As for a comparison to the NEC, that's what I did, admittedly not scientifically, suffice to say, the two areas are comparable in size and amenities, with the NEC being slightly larger, but then it holds nearly three times as many people as the Dolman stand. The only difference, is one of the people running the venue providing better facilities to their customers. I am absolutely certain that venues catering for the masses are covered under the same building laws, regarding fire, crowd control and means of exit.

So the question still appears to be, why can venues such as Anfield, Wembley and the NEC, provide seating for it's users but, Ashton Gate can't?

We're not talking a lot here, just enough to help some less able bodied people enjoy the facilities.  It appears to be down to the will to provide seating, coupled with any adverse effect it might have on the commercial side, which surely would be minimal. Or, a fear of upsetting the SAGS, as it's Marks arse on the line and his name on the safety certificate.

As a reminder, we are not meeting the criteria for providing seating for ambulant disabled people in bar areas (concourses), as recommended in the "accessible stadium guide".

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22 minutes ago, Rich said:

Thanks for your thoughts and contribution on this subject.

Without meaning to sound rude, are you really serious? You are asking if you can guarantee the seats wouldn't ignite as people are evacuating through the concourse. Do you really think temperatures high enough to make seating combust, would be a place of safety to evacuate through? Peoples skin and clothes would melt before any seating caught fire. If it were that hot in the concourse it would be impossible to enter, there'd be smoke billowing out through the exits, so people would evacuate onto the pitch, that's why the safety gates are there.

As for a comparison to the NEC, that's what I did, admittedly not scientifically, suffice to say, the two areas are comparable in size and amenities, with the NEC being slightly larger, but then it holds nearly three times as many people as the Dolman stand. The only difference, is one of the people running the venue providing better facilities to their customers. I am absolutely certain that venues catering for the masses are covered under the same building laws, regarding fire, crowd control and means of exit.

So the question still appears to be, why can venues such as Anfield, Wembley and the NEC, provide seating for it's users but, Ashton Gate can't?

We're not talking a lot here, just enough to help some less able bodied people enjoy the facilities.  It appears to be down to the will to provide seating, coupled with any adverse effect it might have on the commercial side, which surely would be minimal. Or, a fear of upsetting the SAGS, as it's Marks arse on the line and his name on the safety certificate.

As a reminder, we are not meeting the criteria for providing seating for ambulant disabled people in bar areas (concourses), as recommended in the "accessible stadium guide".

Thanks for the response.

I assumed I wouldn't get dragged back in.

I am looking at it from the clubs POV here. Doubtless they would see it as one risk too many.

Nonetheless, in a fire situation, the concourse IS deemed a place of relative safety. Additionally 8 minutes to evacuate IS the max. Look it up if you think I'm wrong on this.

It's not so much the internal heat of concourse as heat outside it.

I already acknowledged in my post (I think) that the risk is low but is still a risk nonetheless.

I'll be interested to look at NEC comparison when I get some time. You're basically saying that concourse the same for 2.5 to 3 x Dolman capacity? Is that safe in a fire situation?

I think the SAG's thing could be closer to the mark tbh. Ours seem very illiberal on many issues, and though this isn't an issue I would necessarily disagree on, it fits a theme.

I will have to look into that. I am struggling to think of many concourses at football stadia which have seating in.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks for the response.

I assumed I wouldn't get dragged back in.

I am looking at it from the clubs POV here. Doubtless they would see it as one risk too many.

Nonetheles, in a fire situation, the concourse IS deemed a place of relative safety. Additionally 8 minutes to evacuate IS the max. Look it up if you think I'm wrong on this.

I already acknowledged in my post (I think) that the risk is low but is still a risk nonetheless.

I'll be interested to look at NEC comparison when I get some time. You're basically saying that concourse basically the same for 2.5 to 3 x Dolman capacity? Is that safe in a fire situation?

I think the SAG's thing could be closer to the mark tbh. Ours seem very illiberal on many issues, and though this isn't an issue I would necessarily disagree on, it fits a theme.

I will have to look into that. I am struggling to think of many concourses at football stadia which have seating in.

Sorry to drag you back in but, we know the clubs point of view. It's one of not down to cost and all down to the safety certificate. And also more likely, one risk too many to be bothered with finding a way around it, which there most definitely is, as others have done. 

NEC Genting arena has a capacity of 15800, with other hospitality facilities other than the main concourse area. Without going into too much detail, there are two other concourses, East and West, they are mostly for access down the sides of the arena, though do have bars. The main one which nearly everyone goes into is on the end, they then enter the others from that concourse. Regardless of the capacity, it has seating areas, which some say are not allowed for safety reasons, that is obviously not correct as others have shown.

I assume the club got planning permission by meeting building laws with the plans provided and then, after meeting that building law criteria, a safety certificate was issued. If seating had been planned from the outset, I'm sure it also would have met the criteria, it just wasn't planned,  other clubs never planned it either, that's why it's not common place. Let's be different and provide better facilities for our supporters that need them.

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^ because they can't be arsed and will trot out half-truths to justify their inaction and think dumbshites who don't frequent their lounges, hospitality boxes won't challenge their intellectual  'superiority' and knowledge - perhaps?

Nevermind, when the novelty wears off and people start returning to the local pubs they'll miraculously find a solution no doubt. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I don't have an issue with shelving in the stands in the slightest. Pretty sure even the Atyeo had shelving, if there isn't shelving- kinda why not?

The concourse areas are big enough to hold independent events such as wedding exhibitions, trade fairs and the like. I believe shelving and seating are seen as obstacles for these events and will in the powers that be opinion, hinder them.

I understand the clubs stance on this and agree that extra revenue must be held at the high end of considerations when making decisions, as it all goes into the pot for distribution within BS. However, as far as shelving is concerned, it could quite easily be incorporated within the RSJ columns and in some areas of the perimeter walls without causing too much of a problem for events and it's organisers. Seating has already been proven to be of little impact if placed on the perimeter walls, particularly in the Dolman concourse.

The questions keep recurring, WHY NOT?

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57 minutes ago, Threshing Red said:

I noticed these 2 images have shelving on their walls around the pillars at Stoke and Fulham so why can't we do the same?

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It is apparent how restricted these areas are when compared to the concourse areas at Ashton Gate. If these restricted areas can provide even the barest essentials in the form of somewhere to park your pint, why can't the Ashton Gate concourses, which in comparison, are like the wide open plains of Texas.

 

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14 minutes ago, Rich said:

The concourse areas are big enough to hold independent events such as wedding exhibitions, trade fairs and the like. I believe shelving and seating are seen as obstacles for these events and will in the powers that be opinion, hinder them.

I understand the clubs stance on this and agree that extra revenue must be held at the high end of considerations when making decisions, as it all goes into the pot for distribution within BS. However, as far as shelving is concerned, it could quite easily be incorporated within the RSJ columns and in some areas of the perimeter walls without causing too much of a problem for events and it's organisers. Seating has already been proven to be of little impact if placed on the perimeter walls, particularly in the Dolman concourse.

The questions keep recurring, WHY NOT?

Does the argument about corporate events stack up?

I mean, fairly sure the Brittania Stadium or whatever it's called now would have events, exhibitions and shelving doesn't seem to stop this.

I fully agree on shelving? Seats, less sure on but shelving yeah seems sensible enough!

Why not shelving? Good question really!

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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Does the argument about corporate events stack up?

I mean, fairly sure the Brittania Stadium or whatever it's called now would have events, exhibitions and shelving doesn't seem to stop this.

I fully agree on shelving? Seats, less sure on but shelving yeah seems sensible enough!

Why not shelving? Good question really!

I have been told that it might be restrictive for some events that fixed seating would be a hindrance, presumably shelves would also fall into that category. Also was told that aesthetics might also came into it because they want to keep nice clean areas with no hardware cluttering up the walls. This is why Mark stated that they were looking into some form of fold up seating, but, not for this season. So, if they are considering it, it must be feasible and be able to meet the safety requirements.

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8 minutes ago, Rich said:

I have been told that it might be restrictive for some events that fixed seating would be a hindrance, presumably shelves would also fall into that category. Also was told that aesthetics might also came into it because they want to keep nice clean areas with no hardware cluttering up the walls. This is why Mark stated that they were looking into some form of fold up seating, but, not for this season. So, if they are considering it, it must be feasible and be able to meet the safety requirements.

My point is Stoke is a modern ground which could well on paper have similar events like trade shows etc.

If they can have shelving in the concourse at Stoke, why should it affect aesthetics of trade shows here?

Maybe we have more concourse events than them, I don't know. Modern grounds have these facilities though and Stoke's was completed in 1997 so it's surely in that category IMO.

Fold up seating yeah, that may well work. Easy to remove in a fire situation also.

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I don't know how it can affect events, you'd have to ask the club. Looking at that photo of the Stoke concourse, it does seem nowhere near the size of any of ours, perhaps that's how they wanted it, or geography dictated.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I don't have an issue with shelving in the stands in the slightest. Pretty sure even the Atyeo had shelving, if there isn't shelving- kinda why not?

I remember the shelving in the Atyeo, first they had thin white ones and then replaced them later with different style so why can't they add them into the rest of the concourse. I am sure any trade events etc will appreciate having somewhere to put their drinks of coffee and tea aswell. 

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5 minutes ago, Threshing Red said:

I remember the shelving in the Atyeo, first they had thin white ones and then replaced them later with different style so why can't they add them into the rest of the concourse. I am sure any trade events etc will appreciate having somewhere to put their drinks of coffee and tea aswell. 

Not to mention their ginger nuts.

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Unfortunately it's all about the money methinks.

The club/Bristol Sport could easily encompass seating and beer/pie resting facilities if they chose to.

I can only come to the conclusion that the revenue of the masses is more important to that of the needs of the few. 

Personally, this is one of the main reasons  why I eat and drink pre-match (and afterwards) locally prior to kick off, although we might sneak one in before the game.

I do savour and enjoy the pre-match experience but most of it does not include putting my dosh into the Bristol Sports experience.

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