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bpexile

Lee Johnson

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I am not trying to start another "S*** Storm" but would like to say thatwhile the jury is still out with me but slightly leaning in LJ's favour. However I do feel he's doing a great job with the younger players at BCFC with both selling the club to them & installing confidence. Long may it continue, just off to get my hard hat, bye for now.

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4 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I am not trying to start another "S*** Storm" but would like to say thatwhile the jury is still out with me but slightly leaning in LJ's favour. However I do feel he's doing a great job with the younger players at BCFC with both selling the club to them & installing confidence. Long may it continue, just off to get my hard hat, bye for now.

Which club do you mean?

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6 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I am not trying to start another "S*** Storm" but would like to say thatwhile the jury is still out with me but slightly leaning in LJ's favour. However I do feel he's doing a great job with the younger players at BCFC with both selling the club to them & installing confidence. Long may it continue, just off to get my hard hat, bye for now.

Can you give some specific examples of these young players pls? 

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8 minutes ago, Bristol_Badger said:

Can you give some specific examples of these young players pls? 

Just seen the interviews of Tyreeq Bakinson & Rory Holden, both these young guys seemed suitably impressed as was the not so young Luke Steele. As I said the jury is still out but surely he must be good at something so credit where it's due.

Edited by bpexile

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Yeah, I was on the same level as Kid in the Riot and glos old boy last year, but he's brought me round. We look like we've got something of a plan.

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4 hours ago, BCFC Grim said:

Yep doing a cracking job with Magnússon, engvall, Moore, O Dowda? These are young players right? 

O'dowda looks a lost cause to me, Engvall looks like he just won't settle and likes/feels comfortable playing where he is now, Moore is still young and out on loan for some vital experience as I don't think anybody knows his best position yet and Magnússon isn't exactly a failure. All far too soon to scribble off players in only their 2nd season when SO young though.

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4 minutes ago, brizzlelou said:

O'dowda looks a lost cause to me, Engvall looks like he just won't settle and likes/feels comfortable playing where he is now, Moore is still young and out on loan for some vital experience as I don't think anybody knows his best position yet and Magnússon isn't exactly a failure. All far too soon to scribble off players in only their 2nd season when SO young though.

Taylor Moore = 20

O'Dowda = 22

Magnússon = 24

 

Wouldn't exactly label them as so young @brizzlelou I would describe Moore as a young player. However, O'Dowda and Magnússon wouldn't be in that category in my book.

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3 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

Taylor Moore = 20

O'Dowda = 22

Magnússon = 24

 

Wouldn't exactly label them as so young @brizzlelou I would describe Moore as a young player. However, O'Dowda and Magnússon wouldn't be in that category in my book.

Like I said I do think O'Dowda is a lost cause and unfortunately a gamble that didn't pay off. Moore is young at 20 and Magnússon not a failure in my eyes. Not a grand success but neither a failure.

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All depends on the coaching really doesn't it?

In the past I'd say we have a poor record in improving both with established players and young players who come to us.

Really hope times have changed. Maybe Mr Holden is good. A strong youth policy delivering players who can make it relies on having brilliant coaching staff.

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There seems to be an increasing trend of players breaking through in there 20s, whereas historically I think we would say if they're not in the first team by 20, they'll never make it.

Why is that?

Is it the physical demands are now so increased that you can't physically build up a 18, 19 year old without damaging them longer term?  Therefore most (one or two exceptions, some maybe in certain positions) aren't strong enough to cope week in week out.

Is the u23 system helping or hindering?  I'm not very informed to know.

Any thoughts?

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There seems to be an increasing trend of players breaking through in there 20s, whereas historically I think we would say if they're not in the first team by 20, they'll never make it.

Why is that?

Is it the physical demands are now so increased that you can't physically build up a 18, 19 year old without damaging them longer term?  Therefore most (one or two exceptions, some maybe in certain positions) aren't strong enough to cope week in week out.

Is the u23 system helping or hindering?  I'm not very informed to know.

Any thoughts?

It should pay dividends I think. Hopefully we'll value smaller technical players like Bobby Reid and stop only scouting tall quick players.

I had a friend in the same age group as Reid and he told me at the time City and other academies generally valued athleticism and height above everything else. 

They ran the boys into the ground with intense training 4 or 5 times a week and just made them do 2 touch.

As a result - lots of the players with promise got niggles and unless they were exceptional (like Reid who got held back a year) they'd be let go unless they were incredibly athletic and preferably 6ft+.

Sounds like we're a bit more enlightened now.

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27 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

Taylor Moore = 20

O'Dowda = 22

Magnússon = 24

 

Wouldn't exactly label them as so young @brizzlelou I would describe Moore as a young player. However, O'Dowda and Magnússon wouldn't be in that category in my book.

So 22 is no longer young? Magnússon to me looked much better against Watford than he did last season. And will continue to improve as he gets older, you would think. Most defenders improve in their mid to late 20s, so 24 is still pretty young.

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21 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It should pay dividends I think. Hopefully we'll value smaller technical players like Bobby Reid and stop only scouting tall quick players.

I had a friend in the same age group as Reid and he told me at the time City and other academies generally valued athleticism and height above everything else. 

They ran the boys into the ground with intense training 4 or 5 times a week and just made them do 2 touch.

As a result - lots of the players with promise got niggles and unless they were exceptional (like Reid who got held back a year) they'd be let go unless they were incredibly athletic and preferably 6ft+.

Sounds like we're a bit more enlightened now.

Think there was a period where the African and French-Africans were en-vogue....hope that is gone.  Room for all types in the modern game.

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44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There seems to be an increasing trend of players breaking through in there 20s, whereas historically I think we would say if they're not in the first team by 20, they'll never make it.

Why is that?

Is it the physical demands are now so increased that you can't physically build up a 18, 19 year old without damaging them longer term?  Therefore most (one or two exceptions, some maybe in certain positions) aren't strong enough to cope week in week out.

Is the u23 system helping or hindering?  I'm not very informed to know.

Any thoughts?

I wonder if it is anything to do with the players training.

Theses days players are like racehorses, in that they are physically fine tuned to within an inch of injury. With this type and level of training, diet controlled conditioning is it harder for their bodies to cope with while they are still developing in their late teens - you will remember the problems Gerrard had in his late teens because he was still growing? The physical demands of the game in England probably exacerbate this, compared with more technical leagues like Spain or Italy..

A few years ago training, diet control and the like were nothing like they are now, and  perhaps the bigger, stronger lads were the ones with a bit of an advantage and head start when it came to breaking through. I well remember when I first started playing senior football in my late teens bigger and stronger players seemed to have the edge and advantage , even over more skilful players.

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20 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I wonder if it is anything to do with the players training.

Theses days players are like racehorses, in that they are physically fine tuned to within an inch of injury. With this type and level of training, diet controlled conditioning is it harder for their bodies to cope with while they are still developing in their late teens - you will remember the problems Gerrard had in his late teens because he was still growing? The physical demands of the game in England probably exacerbate this, compared with more technical leagues like Spain or Italy..

A few years ago training, diet control and the like were nothing like they are now, and  perhaps the bigger, stronger lads were the ones with a bit of an advantage and head start when it came to breaking through. I well remember when I first started playing senior football in my late teens bigger and stronger players seemed to have the edge and advantage , even over more skilful players.

I believe this is a very valid point and a comparison I`ve used before. I honestly believe players are more vulnerable to niggly injuries like groin strains and the like as a result of the intensive conditioning they have these days and the speed the game is played at.

As a plus point however, medical technology and diagnosis is so much further advanced these days so problems are identified earlier and treated before they become too bad.

As we often say on here, The Cheese would have played for another ten years if he`d been around now and his injury could have been dealt with using modern procedures.

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3 hours ago, brizzlelou said:

Like I said I do think O'Dowda is a lost cause and unfortunately a gamble that didn't pay off. Moore is young at 20 and Magnússon not a failure in my eyes. Not a grand success but neither a failure.

I don't get people trying to write of Magnússon, this is a player that has come through the Juventus youth system. You don't do that unless you are a seriously good footballer. He is also an International footballer.

LJ for some bizarre reason decided to blame him for a defeat last season, even though he was a sub that didn't come on until we were losing that game 3-0!. I'm sure that would have knocked the player for six, and was terrible management as far as I'm concerned. 

 

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think there was a period where the African and French-Africans were en-vogue....hope that is gone.  Room for all types in the modern game.

According to my friend - training consisted of 20 mins of 'keepie uppie' as a warm up. A few shooting drills and then an hour of 2 touch. The training was basic and I hope it's moved on hugely.

This was during GJ's time and he sometimes used to watch.

They were trained by Rafael Burke (former class of 92 who didn't make the grade http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-lost-boys-the-members-of-manchester-uniteds-golden-generation-who-missed-out-on-the-big-time-8973980.html) who could do outrageous skill with the ball. Best player at that age group was Tom Andrews according to my friend (now at Bath City).

He couldn't believe it when Reid made the first team. The implication was Reid got special treatment and was given far more patience than other players.

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18 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

According to my friend - training consisted of 20 mins of 'keepie uppie' as a warm up. A few shooting drills and then an hour of 2 touch. The training was basic and I hope it's moved on hugely.

This was during GJ's time and he sometimes used to watch.

They were trained by Rafael Burke (former class of 92 who didn't make the grade http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-lost-boys-the-members-of-manchester-uniteds-golden-generation-who-missed-out-on-the-big-time-8973980.html) who could do outrageous skill with the ball. Best player at that age group was Tom Andrews according to my friend (now at Bath City).

He couldn't believe it when Reid made the first team. The implication was Reid got special treatment and was given far more patience than other players.

I played against him a couple of times....lots of trickery, but was a bit like Edward Scissorfoot when he actually tried to pass / cross. :P

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On ‎03‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 16:32, Davefevs said:

There seems to be an increasing trend of players breaking through in there 20s, whereas historically I think we would say if they're not in the first team by 20, they'll never make it.

Why is that?

Is it the physical demands are now so increased that you can't physically build up a 18, 19 year old without damaging them longer term?  Therefore most (one or two exceptions, some maybe in certain positions) aren't strong enough to cope week in week out.

Is the u23 system helping or hindering?  I'm not very informed to know.

Any thoughts?

Maybe it's the mental demands Dave and not so much the physical?

If you're clever and physical...you'll do well.

Physical, but mentally weak...you wont.

I look at the world now, and how we wrap kids up in cotton wool, offended by everything...'please don't shout at me, as it will hurt my feelings' sort of thing....yet they have to go out and battle and bully, both mentally and physically.

I'm surprised the coach's get as far as they do with them, as it's not like a 'proper job'.

Imagine being 20 and an old Pro like Wilbs in your face, knashing, kicking and physically and mentally destroying you for 90 mins.

Reminds me of the time I was 18 and played mens football for the first time.

Playing up front...and this thug of a bloke from Swindon playing CB...told me in the first minute, he was gonna break my legs, beat me up after the game, tear my head off and shit down my throat. I lasted 30 mins :laugh:

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I think the squads these days have something to do with it. In the time of just one sub you couldn't have a load of players not getting on the bench so if you did have several players out then a youngster would get a chance. These days you can have 7 squad players on the bench plus a couple more to back them up and these players would be consider first team players so the youngsters are further down the pecking order. If that makes sense? 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

Maybe it's the mental demands Dave and not so much the physical?

If you're clever and physical...you'll do well.

Physical, but mentally weak...you wont.

I look at the world now, and how we wrap kids up in cotton wool, offended by everything...'please don't shout at me, as it will hurt my feelings' sort of thing....yet they have to go out and battle and bully, both mentally and physically.

I'm surprised the coach's get as far as they do with them, as it's not like a 'proper job'.

Imagine being 20 and an old Pro like Wilbs in your face, knashing, kicking and physically and mentally destroying you for 90 mins.

Reminds me of the time I was 18 and played mens football for the first time.

Playing up front...and this thug of a bloke from Swindon playing CB...told me in the first minute, he was gonna break my legs, beat me up after the game, tear my head off and shit down my throat. I lasted 30 mins :laugh:

Was it Shaun Taylor :P

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On 9/4/2017 at 01:02, Davefevs said:

There seems to be an increasing trend of players breaking through in there 20s, whereas historically I think we would say if they're not in the first team by 20, they'll never make it.

Why is that?

Is it the physical demands are now so increased that you can't physically build up a 18, 19 year old without damaging them longer term?  Therefore most (one or two exceptions, some maybe in certain positions) aren't strong enough to cope week in week out.

Is the u23 system helping or hindering?  I'm not very informed to know.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that age is just a number & it's down to the individual. Tammy performed like a player with years more experience than he had.

Lets be honest, it's an age when they would all be considered old enough to go to war so football seems a minor obstacle imo, so again imo it's having the coaching staff in place to recognise the attributes of the individuals regardless of age.

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2 minutes ago, bpexile said:

My thoughts are that age is just a number & it's down to the individual. Tammy performed like a player with years more experience than he had.

Lets be honest, it's an age when they would all be considered old enough to go to war so football seems a minor obstacle imo, so again imo it's having the coaching staff in place to recognise the attributes of the individuals regardless of age.

:clap:

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On 05/09/2017 at 23:55, bpexile said:

My thoughts are that age is just a number & it's down to the individual. Tammy performed like a player with years more experience than he had.

Lets be honest, it's an age when they would all be considered old enough to go to war so football seems a minor obstacle imo, so again imo it's having the coaching staff in place to recognise the attributes of the individuals regardless of age.

People want to talk about age, Bobby Reid is having his first season of really looking like a first team regular at championship level and he'll turn 25 this month.

 

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1 hour ago, hodge said:

People want to talk about age, Bobby Reid is having his first season of really looking like a first team regular at championship level and he'll turn 25 this month.

 

My point exactly, regardless of age, thankfully we have coaches in place to realise his capabilities & didn't offload him earlier.

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I dont understand whats happened, it appears we are suggesting that players shouldnt be expected to play in the championship until they are 24/25n and we are buying them much younger, for the future. Are we really thinking it will take players 4 to 5 years before they are ready for the championship? Are we really signing elliason then not expecting him to play much for the duration of his contract?

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20 minutes ago, simon uk said:

I dont understand whats happened, it appears we are suggesting that players shouldnt be expected to play in the championship until they are 24/25n and we are buying them much younger, for the future. Are we really thinking it will take players 4 to 5 years before they are ready for the championship? Are we really signing elliason then not expecting him to play much for the duration of his contract?

If that's in reference to my post I didn't suggest that at all. I was making the point people are wrong to write players off by the age of 22/23/24 if they aren't good players at this level by then. Obviously we would hope they will be good enough asap but some players reach their potential earlier than others. 

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On 01/09/2017 at 00:08, bpexile said:

I am not trying to start another "S*** Storm" but would like to say thatwhile the jury is still out with me but slightly leaning in LJ's favour. However I do feel he's doing a great job with the younger players at BCFC with both selling the club to them & installing confidence. Long may it continue, just off to get my hard hat, bye for now.

Johnson Out

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47 minutes ago, hodge said:

If that's in reference to my post I didn't suggest that at all. I was making the point people are wrong to write players off by the age of 22/23/24 if they aren't good players at this level by then. Obviously we would hope they will be good enough asap but some players reach their potential earlier than others. 

No wasnt thinking of anyone in particular on here. If for example we are still waiting for engvall to come good, that will have been 1.5 years after signing by the time hes back from sweden, and still no guarantee that he will be ready, but still highly rated for the future. Same with a lot of those signings, including odowda Magnússon and taylor moore, who at least is a bit younger. Can it really need 2 years of training for Hörður Magnússon to be ready for championship football with his background and international experience? If thats what it really takes, why are we buying anyone from abroad or lower leagues, surely the transfer fee and wasted salary would be better spent on  championship ready first teamers?

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3 minutes ago, simon uk said:

No wasnt thinking of anyone in particular on here. If for example we are still waiting for engvall to come good, that will have been 1.5 years after signing by the time hes back from sweden, and still no guarantee that he will be ready, but still highly rated for the future. Same with a lot of those signings, including odowda Magnússon and taylor moore, who at least is a bit younger. Can it really need 2 years of training for Hörður Magnússon to be ready for championship football with his background and international experience? If thats what it really takes, why are we buying anyone from abroad or lower leagues, surely the transfer fee and wasted salary would be better spent on  championship ready first teamers?

I think with Magnússon in particular, the reason he isn't playing is because we upgraded the position. We're really strong at centre half now. If we're to push on as a club we will need to keep upgrading and players will lose their places. It's not a case of him not being 'ready', it's more that his competitors are better right now. 

Don't think it's that unreasonable for us to wait for the likes of Moore and Engvall (although I think there's much more to it with Engvall).

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So far so good I think. Think we are stronger this season and the defence is ok. LJ knows how to play and who to play in the right position. Think we have good competion for the starting eleven.

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How many of our young uns are 1, going to play in the first team consistently, and 2, ever make us any money ? not many imo.

With lj randomly spending millions, under 21s under 18`s, academy or whatever you call them now their future can only be with teams like some are gone to now...Chelt etc  sorry just my opinion.

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On 3 September 2017 at 16:44, JonDolman said:

 

So 22 is no longer young? Magnússon to me looked much better against Watford than he did last season. And will continue to improve as he gets older, you would think. Most defenders improve in their mid to late 20s, so 24 is still pretty young.

Important point, 24-28 is probably peak years for most strikers but central defenders are different. I would probably say 28-32 would be peak years for the majority of central defenders.

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1 hour ago, glos old boy said:

How many of our young uns are 1, going to play in the first team consistently, and 2, ever make us any money ? not many imo.

With lj randomly spending millions, under 21s under 18`s, academy or whatever you call them now their future can only be with teams like some are gone to now...Chelt etc  sorry just my opinion.

It only takes the odd gem or two to hit a pay off

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The rate fees are going up as well, how long is it before league 1 teams start paying a million for a decent player at that standard? So buying players like O'Dowda now for £1.7m or so who at the moment looks like he could make it. If he doesn't by another season or so could be sold for over a million potentially. 

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22 minutes ago, brizzlelou said:

It only takes the odd gem or two to hit a pay off

Look its a good plan BUT highly unlikely to pay off anything; first a "young un" has got to get in to a 1st team, that LJ seems to be over filling with players from everywhere and not without cost. Then this youth has to rise to the top of that 1st team and stay there and be noticed.....then what someone may sign this youth whos risen through the ranks and.......we are back to where we started. The money from this transfer? may just cover costs of others who didn't make it and the scouts who found them.

We will never have a fortune from our young un`s so why not just buy decent proven players in the first place.

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45 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

Look its a good plan BUT highly unlikely to pay off anything; first a "young un" has got to get in to a 1st team, that LJ seems to be over filling with players from everywhere and not without cost. Then this youth has to rise to the top of that 1st team and stay there and be noticed.....then what someone may sign this youth whos risen through the ranks and.......we are back to where we started. The money from this transfer? may just cover costs of others who didn't make it and the scouts who found them.

We will never have a fortune from our young un`s so why not just buy decent proven players in the first place.

Because buying established championship players is becoming more expensive every window. Nouha Dicko supposedly £3.8m and has scored 3 goals last year and a bad injury record. Howson 5.65m, Shotton 3.2m (who some don't think is as good as Flint). Aluko £7.5m. Just a few examples but its no surprise that more teams are either taking punts on lower league players or looking abroad now for value for money as there is very little in the championship itself unless you're lucky (us with Pato springs to mind).

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4 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Look its a good plan BUT highly unlikely to pay off anything; first a "young un" has got to get in to a 1st team, that LJ seems to be over filling with players from everywhere and not without cost. Then this youth has to rise to the top of that 1st team and stay there and be noticed.....then what someone may sign this youth whos risen through the ranks and.......we are back to where we started. The money from this transfer? may just cover costs of others who didn't make it and the scouts who found them.

We will never have a fortune from our young un`s so why not just buy decent proven players in the first place.

U18 signings are often a few hundred thousand at most.

So lets say 10 are signed at the upper end of that. £3m spent.

If 1 of them makes it with us, we can recoup that entire outlay. Any money the other players are sold for- and most would be sold, even if they didnt make it with us- is profit.

 

Of course, it is far, far easier to shout and scream that everything is a failure and a waste of time and/or money than to actually wait, or give it a chance for this to work. The U18 signings arent going to be expected to be straight in the XI and many wont be for more than a season or two- LJ raved about Bakinson and said we'd hopefully see him in the first team in 18 months.

As for squad that is "over filled" it is average size for this division. But I suppose a fact wouldnt let you rant.

Or we could spend big on proven Championship players and waltz the division just like Aston Villa last season. 

Oh, hang on. Villa didnt go up despite their 40m+ spend on proven players and despite this seasons efforts are still struggling to make it so they will pass FFP next year.

Edited by JamesBCFC
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8 hours ago, hodge said:

The rate fees are going up as well, how long is it before league 1 teams start paying a million for a decent player at that standard? So buying players like O'Dowda now for £1.7m or so who at the moment looks like he could make it. If he doesn't by another season or so could be sold for over a million potentially. 

Odowda would be worth over 3 million now I reckon. Potentially way more. I can't see why some people don't rate him. I don't think Paterson and Brownhill are necessarily better. They all bring different qualities.

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5 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

U18 signings are often a few hundred thousand at most.

So lets say 10 are signed at the upper end of that. £3m spent.

If 1 of them makes it with us, we can recoup that entire outlay. Any money the other players are sold for- and most would be sold, even if they didnt make it with us- is profit.

 

Of course, it is far, far easier to shout and scream that everything is a failure and a waste of time and/or money than to actually wait, or give it a chance for this to work. The U18 signings arent going to be expected to be straight in the XI and many wont be for more than a season or two- LJ raved about Bakinson and said we'd hopefully see him in the first team in 18 months.

As for squad that is "over filled" it is average size for this division. But I suppose a fact wouldnt let you rant.

Or we could spend big on proven Championship players and waltz the division just like Aston Villa last season. 

Oh, hang on. Villa didnt go up despite their 40m+ spend on proven players and despite this seasons efforts are still struggling to make it so they will pass FFP next year.

You quote Villa but ignore Cardiff and Wolves how many of their players came through the ranks? they aren't doing too bad; even Villa will be back in the prem way before us as we seem content to go around in circles.

 

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12 hours ago, glos old boy said:

How many of our young uns are 1, going to play in the first team consistently, and 2, ever make us any money ? not many imo.

You have no way of knowing either way right now 

12 hours ago, glos old boy said:

With lj randomly spending millions, under 21s under 18`s, academy or whatever you call them now their future can only be with teams like some are gone to now...Chelt etc  sorry just my opinion.

Don't think so, let's wait and see. Your negativity - basically just for the sake of it - is incredibly tiresome.

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54 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

You quote Villa but ignore Cardiff and Wolves how many of their players came through the ranks? they aren't doing too bad; even Villa will be back in the prem way before us as we seem content to go around in circles.

 

Wolves are an anomaly and not really comparable. Cardiff are doing well right now but it's still very early season.

Zohore - one of Cardiff's best players - came from Denmark and relative obscurity; the sort of signing we'd typically make.

How would your model for recruitment work then? We only buy the top players in the league? We're relatively small fry in this league, we can't just go out and buy the best. 

Of course you'd expect Villa to get promotion before us, would be a big failure on their part if we didn't. They're a much bigger club with a far more expensive squad than us so it's hard to compare.

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