England U21

[RedRock]

Assist and goal for Tammy! 

Live on BT1 at the mo.

Decent paced game. The 'adults' could learn a thing or two from the 'kids' here about playing positive, forward-thinking football. Hope 'reverse gear' Henderson realises now you can occasionally engage 'forward' and make a pass directed towards the opponents goal. 

[nickolas]

Henderson is an expensive Joe Burnell! Sideways, sideways, backwards. 

And to be given the armband?! Laughable. 

Roy Keane talking last week about very average players earning vast sums of money in the game nowadays. 

Well Henderson falls right into that one for me. 

[CheddarReds]

Had a giggle that Eddie Howe had to watch the man he wanted on deadline day, Demerai Gray, score a top goal!

[robin_unreliant]

Henderson is a joke. Didn't Sir Alex say he ran like a duck? Sums up what's wrong with over-rated mediocre England.

Sterling - a £50m version of Junior Bent (sorry Jr that was a bit harsh on you).

[Super]

4 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Henderson is a joke. Didn't Sir Alex say he ran like a duck? Sums up what's wrong with over-rated mediocre England.

Sterling - a £50m version of Junior Bent (sorry Jr that was a bit harsh on you).

SAF also said Phil Jones would become Uniteds greatest ever player.

[Phileas Fogg]

15 minutes ago, Super said:

SAF also said Phil Jones would become Uniteds greatest ever player.

He also won 49 trophies so probably can be forgiven a couple of things he said not happening!

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, Super said:

SAF also said Phil Jones would become Uniteds greatest ever player.

He said could, not would 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

Henderson is a joke. Didn't Sir Alex say he ran like a duck? Sums up what's wrong with over-rated mediocre England.

Sterling - a £50m version of Junior Bent (sorry Jr that was a bit harsh on you).

Henderson is there to do a job.  Too many people think he's got to do what Gerrard does.  Last night he made more incisive passes and forward runs than he did v Malta, where he coasted.  Not sure what the difference was?  He's plateaued at Liverpool in the past 12 months, and there is a rumour that he's got a persistent heel injury....who knows.

Who overrates England?  I certainly don't.  We are probably not much difference in ability to Slovakia, yet people expect us to rock up and win 4-0.

I was entertained by England last night....first time in ages.  We were wasteful around the box, and made too many wrong choices  with the final ball, but at least we played with tempo, got at them, and deservedly won.

We aren't that good, we aren't 66 or 96 no more....we don't have the players.  Some are regressing, like Sterling, who is not the player of the SSS partnership with Suarez and Sturridge.  I really don't know what's happened to him.

I'm not a fan of Harry Kane, not sure what he does in most games (bar the important goals output), but last night he had a very good game and touched the ball more than I've ever seen.

We haven't become tournament hopefuls overnight, but results-apart, I could watch that kind of performance, there was also a fair bit of technical stuff to admire about the Slovaks too!

[Oops]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Henderson is there to do a job.  Too many people think he's got to do what Gerrard does.  Last night he made more incisive passes and forward runs than he did v Malta, where he coasted.  Not sure what the difference was?  He's plateaued at Liverpool in the past 12 months, and there is a rumour that he's got a persistent heel injury....who knows.

Who overrates England?  I certainly don't.  We are probably not much difference in ability to Slovakia, yet people expect us to rock up and win 4-0.

I was entertained by England last night....first time in ages.  We were wasteful around the box, and made too many wrong choices  with the final ball, but at least we played with tempo, got at them, and deservedly won.

We aren't that good, we aren't 66 or 96 no more....we don't have the players.  Some are regressing, like Sterling, who is not the player of the SSS partnership with Suarez and Sturridge.  I really don't know what's happened to him.

I'm not a fan of Harry Kane, not sure what he does in most games (bar the important goals output), but last night he had a very good game and touched the ball more than I've ever seen.

We haven't become tournament hopefuls overnight, but results-apart, I could watch that kind of performance, there was also a fair bit of technical stuff to admire about the Slovaks too!

Have you played football at any level Dave?

Genuine question.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Oops said:

Have you played football at any level Dave?

Genuine question.

Lots of levels 

No, nothing special.  Western League Prem was the highest level (mid-90s), but I was probably described as a 'journeyman centre-half' who was lucky to play with better players.  Snapped by ACL at 26 and never really came back.  Spent 4 of the next 5 seasons (1 year out) trying to get back, but ended up with no cartilage in other knee before "retiring"!

[Oops]

We play 1990's football though, and I'm struggling to summon up any enthusiasm for my national team.

Sorry to hear about your injury, I had to pack it in at 29 for the same. Never played western league though!  Gloucester county and 20 mins for Mangotsfield was my limit 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Oops said:

We play 1990's football though, and I'm struggling to summon up any enthusiasm for my national team.

Sorry to hear about your injury, I had to pack it in at 29 for the same. Never played western league though!  Gloucester county and 20 mins for Mangotsfield was my limit 

You are right, we haven't evolved our game.  I could actually handle us playing 90s football if we picked a team to do so, e.g. High tempo, a bit back to front.

I recall an England game under Hoddle, (googled it 1998 v Czech Republic - 2-0 win) where he played Dion Dublin and Ian Wright up top.  From memory we played massively direct into Dublin or in behind to Wright, which was even more surprising in that we also played wingbacks!  For me it allowed all those English traits to come out, and I thought it was a style that would do us well.  The Czechs couldn't handle Dublin or Wright.  Best part of 20 years ago, and there haven't been more than a dozen games where I've really enjoyed the way we played.  Germany 5-1, Argentina 2-2, Argentina 3-2 (Friendly) are examples.

I didn't realise until now that it was Hoddle's last game in charge.  I'm not going into his dismissal, but perhaps that was a big turning point.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Phil Jones was very highly rated when he came through...still time, he's young.

I believe Capello, who knows a good player and has won a few things-in 2011 was gushing- compared him to Franco Baresi and Fernando Hierro.

The thing about playing the 90s football...wouldn't we in hot summer tournaments get exposed somewhat? Especially in the midfield if we played direct, 4-4-2. Given how the game has changed etc. 3-5-2 maybe though...thought we were decent with a back 3 in some past times.

[JasonM88]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Henderson is there to do a job.  Too many people think he's got to do what Gerrard does.  Last night he made more incisive passes and forward runs than he did v Malta, where he coasted.  Not sure what the difference was?  He's plateaued at Liverpool in the past 12 months, and there is a rumour that he's got a persistent heel injury....who knows.

Who overrates England?  I certainly don't.  We are probably not much difference in ability to Slovakia, yet people expect us to rock up and win 4-0.

I was entertained by England last night....first time in ages.  We were wasteful around the box, and made too many wrong choices  with the final ball, but at least we played with tempo, got at them, and deservedly won.

We aren't that good, we aren't 66 or 96 no more....we don't have the players.  Some are regressing, like Sterling, who is not the player of the SSS partnership with Suarez and Sturridge.  I really don't know what's happened to him.

I'm not a fan of Harry Kane, not sure what he does in most games (bar the important goals output), but last night he had a very good game and touched the ball more than I've ever seen.

We haven't become tournament hopefuls overnight, but results-apart, I could watch that kind of performance, there was also a fair bit of technical stuff to admire about the Slovaks too!

Wow

[RedRock]

Henderson. Can someone explain to me (and, ideally, him) what his actual job is?

'Busy doing nothing' sums him up for me.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, JasonM88 said:

Wow

I'm not a fan, and I'm talking more from an England perspective here.  I see too many of his games where he's given us very little, but as I said his goals record is decent.  England need more than goals from Harry.  We need some to play through.  Last night he linked up the play well.  I've not seen him do that in and England shirt hardly at all before.

I take it you rate him?  Why not enter the debate and explain why your opinion differs.  I'm always happy to accept differences and  am open to change my mind....but "wow" doesn't give me much to go on.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Henderson. Can someone explain to me (and, ideally, him) what his actual job is?

'Busy doing nothing' sums him up for me.

See the u21 thread for my thoughts.

[leadman]

englands problem is the midfield for me, dier is a ball carrying centre half , dele ali is inconsistent, I didn't think he affected the game yesterday,  oxlade is a waste of a shirt, Henderson not international class, rashford was excellent and find it hard to criticize kane  with the lack of anything decent to feed off.

I don't know what the answer is but rashford proves if your good enough you should be given a chance, we do have the  u20 world champions and one of the best u21s, must be someone in there.

[Cowshed]

7 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Henderson. Can someone explain to me (and, ideally, him) what his actual job is?

'Busy doing nothing' sums him up for me.

He is busy enough doing things simply to have played for the U21's, England full team and Liverpool. He is also been made Captain of all three.

His role is to sit at the base of the midfield , provide defensive balance, sweep in front of the defence and keep (keep it in possession constantly) the ball moving simply from deep positions - The more offensive players provide creativity.

How good he is down to perception, preference, expectations etc, but his role is not to do a lot on the ball, and it can be argued that at Liverpool he gets to play with better players than some of England's who he assists in their roles.

[RedRock]

 

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

He is busy enough doing things simply to have played for the U21's, England full team and Liverpool. He is also been made Captain of all three.

His role is to sit at the base of the midfield , provide defensive balance, sweep in front of the defence and keep (keep it in possession constantly) the ball moving simply from deep positions - The more offensive players provide creativity.

How good he is down to perception, preference, expectations etc, but his role is not to do a lot on the ball, and it can be argued that at Liverpool he gets to play with better players than some of England's who he assists in their roles.

Thanks for your explanation.

No surprise to me that Liverpool and the Under21s achieved so little despite the enormity of the resources available. 

So, against the might of Malta we have Livermore and Dier playing defensive midfield with Henderson providing defensive balance and keeping the ball moving from defensive positions? 

Maybe, it's not Henderson - who I now appreciate contributes by running around a lot, I should be questioning - it's Southgate!

Just wish someone could teach him though how to play a quick forward pass, as all he achieves is slowing the game down. Great if you have a Messi unlocking banks of defenders who have been given time to drop back into position. We haven't got a Messi so, as a consequence, the likes of Kane are then marked out the game. Interestingly, we looked the most threatening (and entertaining) when we were 1-0 down playing positive, quick, attacking football - largely bypassing Henderson. 

When Henderson re-exerted his influence on the game, we seem forced to play hopeless kickabouts 10 yards just inside the opponents half in front of a mass defence before passing the ball back into our half from where Cahill, or someone equally adept, inevitably hoofs it forward or out of play. 

Anyhow, time for Warnock to become England manager, he'll sort out these limp-wristed wasters  :-)

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I think Henderson as part of a 3, with a more creative type- Wilshere if he had kept his trajectory could have been perfect- would have been a nice balance, Dier, Henderson, Wilshere.

However it will be a long road back for Wilshere so that option is out for a while sadly.

[Cowshed]

45 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

 

Thanks for your explanation.

No surprise to me that Liverpool and the Under21s achieved so little despite the enormity of the resources available. 

So, against the might of Malta we have Livermore and Dier playing defensive midfield with Henderson providing defensive balance and keeping the ball moving from defensive positions? 

Maybe, it's not Henderson - who I now appreciate contributes by running around a lot, I should be questioning - it's Southgate!

Just wish someone could teach him though how to play a quick forward pass, as all he achieves is slowing the game down. Great if you have a Messi unlocking banks of defenders who have been given time to drop back into position. We haven't got a Messi so, as a consequence, the likes of Kane are then marked out the game. Interestingly, we looked the most threatening (and entertaining) when we were 1-0 down playing positive, quick, attacking football - largely bypassing Henderson. 

When Henderson re-exerted his influence on the game, we seem forced to play hopeless kickabouts 10 yards just inside the opponents half in front of a mass defence before passing the ball back into our half from where Cahill, or someone equally adept, inevitably hoofs it forward or out of play. 

Anyhow, time for Warnock to become England manager, he'll sort out these limp-wristed wasters  :-)

 

Maybe the question should be why England has stopped producing players with a range of passing.

France employ players like Henderson. Their Manager was one.

Henderson does not continually slow the game down because his role is to move the ball simple, quick and early to players who should be able to penetrate the opposition. He has played alongside Gerrard, Lallana and Coutinho who will break the lines. He generally plays 360% to whoever is nearest and in the direction he is facing, and again if he plays backwards to go forwards and the receiving player does not have the skill to penetrate  ... The first question has to be asked again.

Henderson by providing balance to the full backs who play pushed up speeds the game up by simply sitting - thus the full backs provide width and tempo. Its hard to really speed the game up when he will be deeper than seven of his fellow outfield players for significant parts of the game - Pirlo maybe ... !!

Henderson could be very good at doing simple and there is a beauty in it with better players, which explains why Klopp who was responsible for a wonderful Dortmund has not replaced him.

 

[RedRock]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Maybe the question should be why England has stopped producing players with a range of passing.

France employ players like Henderson. Their Manager was one.

Henderson does not continually slow the game down because his role is to move the ball simple, quick and early to players who should be able to penetrate the opposition. He does. He has played alongside Gerrard, Lallana and Coutinho who will break the lines. He generally plays 360% to whoever is nearest and in the direction he is facing, and again if he plays backwards to go forwards and the receiving player does not have the skill to penetrate either ... The first question has to be asked again.

Henderson by providing balance to the full backs who play pushed up speeds the game up by simply sitting. Its hard to really speed the game up when he will be deeper than seven of his fellow outfield players for significant parts of the game.

Henderson could be very good at doing simple and there is a beauty in it with better players, which explains why Klopp who was responsible for a wonderful Dortmund has not replaced him.

 

Klopp left Dortmund in a mess and near relegation. Great bloke, but whether a great manager is a matter of some debate.

France may well have a Henderson-type, but they also have an abundance of 'flair' players, on a different planet to the likes of our petulant, powder-puff players like Sterling and Ali.

Just going back to the point you highlighted in my post, can you/anyone explain Dier, Livermore, Henderson .... against Malta? Three defensive midfielders, in front of a back four! Maybe it's because they are all so limited in their skill set. Dier heads, Livermore might tackle and Henderson short- passes backwards or sideways. What have we become? Not wonder watching England nowadays is joyless.

[BobBobSuperBob]

13 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Klopp left Dortmund in a mess and near relegation. Great bloke, but whether a great manager is a matter of some debate.

France may well have a Henderson-type, but they also have an abundance of 'flair' players, on a different planet to the likes of our petulant, powder-puff players like Sterling and Ali.

Just going back to the point you highlighted in my post, can you/anyone explain Dier, Livermore, Henderson .... against Malta? Three defensive midfielders, in front of a back four! Maybe it's because they are all so limited in their skill set. Dier heads, Livermore might tackle and Henderson short- passes backwards or sideways. What have we become? Not wonder watching England nowadays is joyless.

Totally agree , Crazy -

but .........and was thinking  as I watched - sad thing is with Wiltshire heading for obscurity we are badly lacking any form of playmaker - not sure who else there is and who I would have played ! Drinkwater ? Hardly sets the pulses racing !!!

If it wasn't for his temperament / attitude flaws I've always thought , talent , wise Shelvey could have been one

[JamesBCFC]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Totally agree , Crazy -

but .........and was thinking  as I watched - sad thing is with Wiltshire heading for obscurity we are badly lacking any form of playmaker - not sure who else there is and who I would have played ! Drinkwater ? Hardly sets the pulses racing !!!

If it wasn't for his temperament / attitude flaws I've always thought , talent , wise Shelvey could have been one

What happened to that player at West Ham who was in great form a season or two ago, Antonio or something?

Got a feeling he is more of a winger, but he had a few great seasons as a CM.

[Cowshed]

37 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Klopp left Dortmund in a mess and near relegation. Great bloke, but whether a great manager is a matter of some debate.

France may well have a Henderson-type, but they also have an abundance of 'flair' players, on a different planet to the likes of our petulant, powder-puff players like Sterling and Ali.

Just going back to the point you highlighted in my post, can you/anyone explain Dier, Livermore, Henderson .... against Malta? Three defensive midfielders, in front of a back four! Maybe it's because they are all so limited in their skill set. Dier heads, Livermore might tackle and Henderson short- passes backwards or sideways. What have we become? Not wonder watching England nowadays is joyless.

Klopp left Dortmund in a mess and near relegation ... 7th. Personally I thought Dortmund where fantastic for three years under Klopp.

France may well have a Henderson-type, but they also have an abundance of 'flair' players ... And that is the point. Where truly are England's?

Just going back to the point you highlighted in my post, can you/anyone explain Dier, Livermore, Henderson .... against Malta? I will have a go. Mr Southgate played 4-2-3-1. The same system. It is in theory an attacking style. A four and a six. Two CD and DM defend provide balance and shape, its not a back four or flat which frees six to go forwards. Six can become seven .. Its fluid if you have the players. Your post there is casting aspersions on the ability of England's players = He has not got the players.

The Malta game was also preparation for the Slovakia game. Two formations and change  v a common formation in the EPL and one used by England? He chose the latter and yes England are limited in their skill set so are limited in what Mr Southgate can do unless he can magic up options he does not have.

I enjoyed the Slovakia game. I did not expect high quality, England are a second tier nation ... That is where England's national team is.

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

15 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

What happened to that player at West Ham who was in great form a season or two ago, Antonio or something?

Got a feeling he is more of a winger, but he had a few great seasons as a CM.

Not sure he's ever been cm James - Was a wide man at Forest and West Ammm were using him as a right wing back 

Injured ATM I think

[JamesBCFC]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not sure he's ever been cm James - Was a wide man at Forest and West Ammm were using him as a right wing back 

Injured ATM I think

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, I'm sure he had a few crackers in CM. 

TBH completely out of touch with the Premier League now. Not even watched MOTD for a couple of seasons, it's a struggle for me to think who won the title (I want to say Chelsea, but not 100% sure)

Outside of City and Manor Farm my interest has dwindled a lot.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, I'm sure he had a few crackers in CM. 

TBH completely out of touch with the Premier League now. Not even watched MOTD for a couple of seasons, it's a struggle for me to think who won the title (I want to say Chelsea, but not 100% sure)

Outside of City and Manor Farm my interest has dwindled a lot.

Yeah Antonio is a winger/forward or a wing back.

Very good athlete and capable of good goals but not a brilliant technician.

Real shame to see Wilshere and Ravel Morrison not fulfil their potential. Both very talented but wasted it in my opinion.

Really think we could be on a bit of a resurgence over the next few years.. Rashford, Butland, Abraham, Trent Alexander Arnold.. there's a few to be excited about..

[JamesBCFC]

10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Yeah Antonio is a winger/forward or a wing back.

Very good athlete and capable of good goals but not a brilliant technician.

Real shame to see Wilshere and Ravel Morrison not fulfil their potential. Both very talented but wasted it in my opinion.

Really think we could be on a bit of a resurgence over the next few years.. Rashford, Butland, Abraham, Trent Alexander Arnold.. there's a few to be excited about..

As above, fallen out of touch with the Prem, but dont Wilshere and Morrison have questionable attitudes? Both had good potential, but it is up to them to fulfill it.

We desperately need to drop Hart, has been more of a hinderance over the last few years, doesnt help that he is guarenteed his place either.

 

You missed out Kelly from the 'promising' list