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Have we under estimated LJ ?


bpexile

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I don't want to start a slanging match  so before I put on my tin hat, can we all remember in LJs early days of being head coach at city he stated how he thought that Joe Bryan & Bobby Reid were class acts of big monetary value. He was ridiculed by many on here & the same wanted city to replace both of these lads. Now we could argue that they are our two most prized players. Is it possible that we under estimated LJ ? I'm certainly guilty, I was one that wanted him out but am prepared to admit I was wrong, LJ has slowly won me over, we seem to be playing with real purpose at last & have good quality in depth with some very good looking academy lads, what are your genuine thoughts please.

:gasmask:  :gasmask:

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17 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I don't want to start a slanging match  so before I put on my tin hat, can we all remember in LJs early days of being head coach at city he stated how he thought that Joe Bryan & Bobby Reid were class acts of big monetary value. He was ridiculed by many on here & the same wanted city to replace both of these lads. Now we could argue that they are our two most prized players. Is it possible that we under estimated LJ ? I'm certainly guilty, I was one that wanted him out but am prepared to admit I was wrong, LJ has slowly won me over, we seem to be playing with real purpose at last & have good quality in depth with some very good looking academy lads, what are your genuine thoughts please.

:gasmask:  :gasmask:

I think so. I'm not convinced he is the messiah, as last season proves, but I certainly think he's the right man for the job, and LJ, DH, and JMac have all done superb work with Bobby and Joe, and we're definitely heading in the right direction. I wouldn't be able to put a monetary value on Bobby but I wouldn't let JB go for anything short of 7.5 million.

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one swallow does not a summer make. We've had some decent results culminating in a fabulous result on Saturday, but I wish people on here would be a little more measured in their reactions - we're either going up or we're going down, there's never a middle ground. He's looked pretty smart the last few weeks, but there's still time for everything to go wrong. It's asking the impossible, but it'd be great if people just followed a policy of cautious optimism and positive support. 

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5 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

one swallow does not a summer make. We've had some decent results culminating in a fabulous result on Saturday, but I wish people on here would be a little more measured in their reactions - we're either going up or we're going down, there's never a middle ground. He's looked pretty smart the last few weeks, but there's still time for everything to go wrong. It's asking the impossible, but it'd be great if people just followed a policy of cautious optimism and positive support. 

Well said, but remember this is otib.........

For decades of following City I, and I'm sure plenty of other fans have always had an underlying feeling that City will  let you down and some point and ultimately they always have.

Im reluctant to say it but that feeling does not seem to be there at the moment and I'm actually feeling optimistic about the way City are progressing.

Several factors are involved. The redevelopment of AG is superb ( shame about the crap sound system....:facepalm:) The management structure within the club is working well with MA as CEO and LJ as head coach. Player recruitment seems going well and obviously the performances on the pitch have been pretty impressive.

The club overall is in a good place right now. 

 

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If we - from afar, or the outside - under estimated someone within football, then is it any surprise? We are in good company:

Gary Lineker - tweeted his incredulity/doubt when Ranieri was appointed, and his outrage when he was sacked. Both good/correct decisions, with the benefit of hindsight (wtboh).

Alan Hansen - you don't win anything with kids (listen up, LJ).

Brian Clough - called that Polish keeper a "clown" in 1973.

Chris Iwelumo and Ian Holloway - tipped Huddersfield to be relegated last season.

Everyone in football - got Leicester wrong, the season they won it.

 

The list goes on. The game is littered with such under estimations. Our excuse is that we do not have first-hand inside info about the game - we make, as SL put it last season "uninformed decisions" - whereas those inside the game get it wrong as much as us when they have "played the game" and "know the game." 

SL knows what goes on inside this club but still gets many of his "estimates" wrong. If he didn't, we'd be in the Premier League, or even the Europa League, at the moment. But every now and then, over the course of 15 plus years, one or two of his punts have to come off, or at least do better than his bad "estimates." Could be that this one works out well. 

 

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1 hour ago, poland_exile said:

one swallow does not a summer make. We've had some decent results culminating in a fabulous result on Saturday, but I wish people on here would be a little more measured in their reactions - we're either going up or we're going down, there's never a middle ground. He's looked pretty smart the last few weeks, but there's still time for everything to go wrong. It's asking the impossible, but it'd be great if people just followed a policy of cautious optimism and positive support. 

That's the annoying thing for me - one swallow does a summer make - but only for negative opinion it seems.

The bad (okay appalling) run is - in the grand scheme - a blip on Johnson's championship record.

Even when you include it, his win rate in the championship is now almost 40% which is some accomplishment for a manager with only 80 ish games at this level under his belt. 

People don't seem to realise it but for the majority of his time here, we've been in excellent form. 

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8 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Some posters have always recognised Reid's ability, many havent.

Reid is worth much more than £5m so actually LJ was incorrect.

I agree with you on Reids ability but the question was about underestimating LJ so do I deduct from that you are a Johnson out person or just nit picking ?

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I think most supporters have always gone off the available evidence, which is all you can do. I do not think the vast majority have had knives out from the off for LJ but people naturally get concerned when we get into an extended losing streak that, at the time, there appears to be no way out of.

LJ has always claimed he has a plan. There were times last season, particularly after the Forest away game for me, where it was hard to see that this was the case. I do not think anyone underestimated LJ but there are now signs that what he was trying to build may be coming to fruition.

Where I think time may show many of us may have been wrong and owe an apology is to Steve Lansdown. People got very angry  last season and threw a lot of accusations around but the suggestion he was only keeping LJ in a job because he was a mate and towed the line was not a fair one and, if LJ continues to improve, then credit has to go to him for staying calm and showing leadership whilst the rest of us panicked.

There are also two or three  posters - but no more than that - where, if things do well, I will be interested to see at what point they will give LJ credit but I think the vast majority of us only showed the concern any football fan would in the light of bad results.

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I too was very scepical about LJ last season, but this season has started pretty well.  But don't forget that we started last season well too.

The quality of football we are playing this season and the strength in depth is the real difference though.

One swallow does not a summer make though an and I will reserve my judgement until after Xmas.

Feeling a lot more positive at the moment though.

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Many of us under estimated LJ, but last season, LJ over estimated LJ - see Lee Tomlin. I reckon LJ coaching and managing younger players with everything ahead of them (say, Brownhill) or something to prove (like a Paterson) is what he is good at, like he did well at Oldham, and was getting going at Barnsley before he jumped ship.

If the honest appraisal last season was LJ "I've ****ed up, bringing in Tomlin; I can't handle him." SL/MA "ok, put him on the bench, go back to what you are good at. We'll get rid of Tomlin in the summer" then we might be able to see and understand the seemingly illogical decision to stick by LJ. But of course, we rarely, if ever, get such honesty and openness; they couldn't, because they had to "get rid" of Tomlin, and so we had the press conference where we were told there was only sweetness and light behind the scenes.

Its all a game, and we try and guess what tf is going on, and never know for sure when or if we are hot or cold in our estimates. And we do lose sight of the fact that we are always guessing, and have a tendency to forget that our opinions are opinions, not concrete facts. We are, after all, merely human.

 

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For me, I think it's less about us underestimating LJ, and more to do with a board and a manager sticking with one another for a prolonged period.

For me, it's still far too early to say that this season is a success. We're on a bit of a high right now, but this was no different to last season. For LJ to show improvement he needs to maintain this level throughout the season, and finish much higher than before.

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1 hour ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

8 games in so lets see where we are after the next 3 or 4. Thing is we will have a bad run at some stage as long as it doesn't turn into another record of straight defeats then im happy.

I'm loving what I'm seeing at the moment, but you are correct. The biggest test now will be when we lose 2/3 league games on the trot. How do we rectify that. 

Personally I think the squad has enough depth now that we can make changes without getting in a rut becomes a problem. 

Its certainly going to be an interesting season! 

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I'm not sure 'under estimation' is the right word. More 'misrepresentation'. LJ was a very young manager adjusting to a higher quality of opposition, an increased amount of pressure and a significantly larger average ego. He wa still learning when he got here and he's still learning now. The expectations in modern football are for instant gratification, that doesn't mean those expectations are correct. As much as I think he was incredibly lucky to keep his job last season, I don't know why people can't see the value in investing in the development of a manager or coach in the same way that one would invest in a player.

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3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

In response to the question raised in the title, I would like to say......

I don't know, have you?

Still early days as many have said but I do feel far more positive about the future. A run of bad results would obviously change things but in my case the postive feelings certainly outway the negative, so in answering your question "Yes" & long may it continue.

Thanks for the input.

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I hate to be that guy....

..... But this time last year we were in a similar position- Around 9 to 12th with some good results under our belt. In fact we are just a week away from it being a year since we smashed Fulham 4-0 and that put us onto 14 points from 9 games. So if we lose our next game we would have actually made a worse start this season than we did last... So I am going to rein in my optimism.

 

However- Even after our good start last season there was a big feeling that we were riding our luck a lot. This year does feel different as I can see how the team are trying to play, I can see that the players understand what it is that is asked of them and most importantly I can see that the players are doing what is asked of them rather than ignoring instructions (heres looking at you Tomlin).

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3 hours ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

8 games in so lets see where we are after the next 3 or 4. Thing is we will have a bad run at some stage as long as it doesn't turn into another record of straight defeats then im happy.

Should we lose at Norwich I fully expect us to put Bolton to the sword at AG the following Tuesday night..that marker of "first ten games" would then see us with 16 points-  a fantastic start..

Dare to hope we can maintain it ?!!.......would see us finish 70+points if we do.

Will be crucial how we react(when it comes)to a couple of defeats on the bounce-then we may have an idea..

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It's a good start for sure.

I realise we can only play the teams the fixture list throws at us, but I think 6 of the 8 played so far are in the bottom 10 currently and only 1 is in the top half at all. That's not to say we won't get a decent haul points against more in form teams either. A case of remaining optimistic and waiting and seeing. 

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11 hours ago, poland_exile said:

one swallow does not a summer make. We've had some decent results culminating in a fabulous result on Saturday, but I wish people on here would be a little more measured in their reactions - we're either going up or we're going down, there's never a middle ground. He's looked pretty smart the last few weeks, but there's still time for everything to go wrong. It's asking the impossible, but it'd be great if people just followed a policy of cautious optimism and positive support. 

This is so true.

If we lose at Norwich next weekend then no doubt there'll be a meltdown and people will ask questions about team selection, tactics, substitutions etc. etc. and the relegation word will be out.

Likewise, we've won a couple and were suddenly promotion contenders.

I just wish people would recognise that yes, we've made progress. But we're not the finished article and we'll win some and lose some. 

But saying all that, positive signs so far and it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. 

 

Up the city x

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7 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

This is so true.

If we lose at Norwich next weekend then no doubt there'll be a meltdown and people will ask questions about team selection, tactics, substitutions etc. etc. and the relegation word will be out.

Likewise, we've won a couple and were suddenly promotion contenders.

I just wish people would recognise that yes, we've made progress. But we're not the finished article and we'll win some and lose some. 

But saying all that, positive signs so far and it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. 

 

Up the city x

spot on. As football fans it's in our nature to view things in black and white, and to seek either a hero or a villain.

In this case mind, it'd really help our collective mental health if we just chilled out a bit and asked: has LJ done to enough to deserve devotion? No. Has LJ done enough to earn respect? Yes. 

As you say, it's going to be bloody interesting to see how this all works out. 

Onwards! 

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18 hours ago, Tammys Scan said:

I'll have more faith when he turns us around after going on a losing run..

To turn around a losing run you have to go on a losing run. We're currently on an unbeaten run.

This is gold. You don't yet have faith in LJ because he hasn't lost enough games? Jeez! 

I'm going to try it again: "I'll have more faith when he keeps us going on this unbeaten run for another ten games."

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