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Have we under estimated LJ ?


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18 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

Should we lose at Norwich I fully expect us to put Bolton to the sword at AG the following Tuesday night..that marker of "first ten games" would then see us with 16 points-  a fantastic start..

Dare to hope we can maintain it ?!!.......would see us finish 70+points if we do.

Will be crucial how we react(when it comes)to a couple of defeats on the bounce-then we may have an idea..

I have my fingers crossed for a draw at norwich then a win against Bolton which would give us 17. I remember the GJ playoff season when we got 17 then another 17 from the next 10. I am definitely superstitious when it comes to football so IF we hit that lucky number I will be just a bit excited.

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4 hours ago, City Ben said:

To turn around a losing run you have to go on a losing run. We're currently on an unbeaten run.

This is gold. You don't yet have faith in LJ because he hasn't lost enough games? Jeez! 

I'm going to try it again: "I'll have more faith when he keeps us going on this unbeaten run for another ten games."

After what happened last season, anyone has the right to be cautiously pleased with how this season has started, but aware of what happened last season. Last seasons run was awful, lj would have been sacked if it was anything to do with me, but we currently look more resilient this year.

i personally am still concerned about the ability of the club to spend good money on young players and actually improve them.

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11 minutes ago, simon uk said:

After what happened last season, anyone has the right to be cautiously pleased with how this season has started, but aware of what happened last season. Last seasons run was awful, lj would have been sacked if it was anything to do with me, but we currently look more resilient this year.

i personally am still concerned about the ability of the club to spend good money on young players and actually improve them.

I don't disagree that we should remain aware of what happened last season. You won't find me getting carried away, and I think your word "cautiously" is important. 

I was just pointing out that not giving credit to LJ until the current run of good form comes to an end, we lose some matches, then he turns it around again seems... well... perverse. 

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I think we have to appraise the coaching team and not just LJ. For me Jamie Mac has to be the one who has made the difference. MA and LJ chose him (and booted out Pembo, this upset me, especially listening to MA's bullshit afterwards) so they have to be congratulated on that but Jamie Mac has been the inspirational figure with the important Scots gravitas. This has to have impressed a young group of players. Holden remains a shadowy presence still not sure what he brings. But LJ cannot alone be credited for the temporary success.

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36 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

I think we have to appraise the coaching team and not just LJ. For me Jamie Mac has to be the one who has made the difference. MA and LJ chose him (and booted out Pembo, this upset me, especially listening to MA's bullshit afterwards) so they have to be congratulated on that but Jamie Mac has been the inspirational figure with the important Scots gravitas. This has to have impressed a young group of players. Holden remains a shadowy presence still not sure what he brings. But LJ cannot alone be credited for the temporary success.

But LJ alone was taking the flak for our poor run. I do agree with you that the apparent improvement is down to the whole coaching staff, but people seem much more willing to heap scorn on LJ (and my word was it deserved at certain times last season) than they do to heap praise

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44 minutes ago, City Ben said:

I don't disagree that we should remain aware of what happened last season. You won't find me getting carried away, and I think your word "cautiously" is important. 

I was just pointing out that not giving credit to LJ until the current run of good form comes to an end, we lose some matches, then he turns it around again seems... well... perverse. 

Credit for the run we're on for sure. We'll almost certainly have a bad run at some point. I think it's a valid point to make about how he can turn that around as well as credit a good run. Can he stop the rot after 4 matches or 14? He looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights last season. Has he learned from this?

I'm happy to credit him for a good run and a bad one (as long as he keeps it short!)

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23 hours ago, cider-manc said:

I hate to be that guy....

..... But this time last year we were in a similar position- Around 9 to 12th with some good results under our belt. In fact we are just a week away from it being a year since we smashed Fulham 4-0 and that put us onto 14 points from 9 games. So if we lose our next game we would have actually made a worse start this season than we did last... So I am going to rein in my optimism.

And to help illustrate your point, here is the league table from last season as of the first week of November after a 2-2 draw at Barnsley:

image.png.6d776786280be093a101948b72d92f3a.png

Might help explain why many are reigning in the optimism for now...

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42 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

I think we have to appraise the coaching team and not just LJ. For me Jamie Mac has to be the one who has made the difference. MA and LJ chose him (and booted out Pembo, this upset me, especially listening to MA's bullshit afterwards) so they have to be congratulated on that but Jamie Mac has been the inspirational figure with the important Scots gravitas. This has to have impressed a young group of players. Holden remains a shadowy presence still not sure what he brings. But LJ cannot alone be credited for the temporary success.

If you look at the club's long term plan aspirations, then it has to be a team effort, as everyone from MA to coaches to players all have to be signed up to the way the club is trying to go forward, both on and off the pitch.

If so, then success will only be achieved because everyone is carrying out their part of the process.

The more traditional way is for club to sack a manager when things are going badly and bring in a new manager, with the hope that the new manager will turn things around, so success or failure tends to rest on one set of shoulders. The problem with that approach is that if success is achieved then it tends to come to an end when the manager, under who the success was achieved, leaves for whatever reason.

There're same fans who never wanted LJ here in the first place, either because of his playing time here, that he is GJ's son, or that they felt that SL ducked the issue by not appointing a "big name" manager  with "proven championship experience". Their fears were being proved during the poor run before last Christmas, but I sense that while some are admitting they might have been wrong in their original judgements, some still seem to begrudge LJ any credit whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong, there is still a long way to go before we can regard the club as real contenders in this division, but there are real signs that everything the club has been working towards is now starting to come together on the pitch. We have a young squad that can only improve the longer it stays together, and a crop of young players pushing for first team contention - something we have sadly lacked for too long - and a playing style that is giving fans attractive and exciting football. Perhaps     LJ should be given credit, along with the rest of his coaching team for what they have achieved, although I am pretty certain they will not think they have finished the job by a long chalk.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

And to help illustrate your point, here is the league table from last season as of the first week of November after a 2-2 draw at Barnsley:

image.png.6d776786280be093a101948b72d92f3a.png

Might help explain why many are reigning in the optimism for now...

It still feels incredible that one loss to Brighton- a game in which we weren't even that bad ultimately- I mean we weren't great but we weren't disastrous, vs a team who looked highly likely for auto and had just hammered Norwich 5-0 should have knocked us off course like that!

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13 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

And to help illustrate your point, here is the league table from last season as of the first week of November after a 2-2 draw at Barnsley:

image.png.6d776786280be093a101948b72d92f3a.png

Might help explain why many are reigning in the optimism for now...

Tammy scored 9 in the first 15 league games and we were told we would struggle this season without a proven championship goalscorer, as it was only Tammy's gaols that kept us up last season..

However, we are now the championship's top scoring team, and do seem very different proposition than we were last season, when we were often anything but convincing even when scraping results earlier in the season. Had Millwall, Brentford and Wolves been played last seats we would almost certainly have seen us beaten in every game, as we lacked backbone and resilience.

Still a long way to go of course, and Bristol City has long had a habit of letting us down , and not just under LJ, but there does seem to be a feeling among fans and out on the pitch that we are going to remain much more competitive throughout this season. The key will be how LJ and the players react when we suffer our next setback, which we will, but if performances so far are anything to go by, I would be more than surprised if we go on anything like the losing streak from last year.

Fingers crossed the team can justify the increasing optimism among fans. 

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Still too early to read that much into things but far more promising than last season. The manner of our performances wasn't that brilliant during our early season form last year.

Some very good early signs, and our squad feels far more applicable to the style of football he wants to play. When we're good - we're very good. 

Interesting to see how we cope with the inevitability of a few injuries, loss of form or suspension.

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43 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

And to help illustrate your point, here is the league table from last season as of the first week of November after a 2-2 draw at Barnsley:

image.png.6d776786280be093a101948b72d92f3a.png

Might help explain why many are reigning in the optimism for now...

It's insane to think that we only managed 30 more points from the next 31 games.....  *shudder*

22 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Well I remember being at that Barnsley game and turning to my friend saying "how on earth are we 6th in the league". We were utterly uninspiring. 

The more promising aspect of that table is other than us and Birmingham all those teams managed to stick in and around the top 6.

We were very lucky in that game (which is bizarre because we were winning going into injury time). We were useless all over the park but Matthews got absolutely ran ragged and seem to find himself 2 on 1 for most the game.... Barnsley should have been out of sight at HT.

 

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It's amazing the damage that one bad apple can do to a team. This goes for any team. They breed toxicity, negativity and undermine leadership. We'll never know but it seems that there is belief this season, which was lacking last. 

I'm a Johnson critic, it seems he is learning though and if indeed progress is maintained, then I will back him. 

A lot of odd decisions were made in the last year. Maybe, now they might not be seen as so odd? It's a results game and right now they're good. The test will come as others have said if and when we lose two on the bounce.

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4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

And to help illustrate your point, here is the league table from last season as of the first week of November after a 2-2 draw at Barnsley:

image.png.6d776786280be093a101948b72d92f3a.png

Might help explain why many are reigning in the optimism for now...

If you look at last seasons form dissected into thirds...first third we were top 6 form wise, second third second worst in the division, final third we were top 4.

A bonkers season.

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10 minutes ago, spudski said:

If you look at last seasons form dissected into thirds...first third we were top 6 form wise, second third second worst in the division, final third we were top 4.

A bonkers season.

Really? 22 pts from our final 16 games...possible, but I'd be surprised if that was in the top 4 best form in the final third of games. On the face of it looks like more 6-10th ish.

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16 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Really? 22 pts from our final 16 games...possible, but I'd be surprised if that was in the top 4 best form in the final third of games. On the face of it looks like more 6-10th ish.

Yes mate...I can't remember the site where the Stats came from, but I did post it up on here before in a previous thread. If I ever find it again I'll post it up.

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14 hours ago, City Ben said:

To turn around a losing run you have to go on a losing run. We're currently on an unbeaten run.

This is gold. You don't yet have faith in LJ because he hasn't lost enough games? Jeez! 

I'm going to try it again: "I'll have more faith when he keeps us going on this unbeaten run for another ten games."

The bigger picture is we have only lost something like twice in 18 games

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On 19 September 2017 at 09:50, southvillekiddy said:

I think we have to appraise the coaching team and not just LJ. For me Jamie Mac has to be the one who has made the difference. MA and LJ chose him (and booted out Pembo, this upset me, especially listening to MA's bullshit afterwards) so they have to be congratulated on that but Jamie Mac has been the inspirational figure with the important Scots gravitas. This has to have impressed a young group of players. Holden remains a shadowy presence still not sure what he brings. But LJ cannot alone be credited for the temporary success.

This is very speculative. You don't have a clue what goes on behind closed doors. We see a very small snippet every Saturday for 90mins. 

From what I've heard, Holden plays a very proactive role on the training ground, as do LJ and JMac. 

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2 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

This is very speculative. You don't have a clue what goes on behind closed doors. We see a very small snippet every Saturday for 90mins. 

From what I've heard, Holden plays a very proactive role on the training ground, as do LJ and JMac. 

Okay. Speculative of course but is it very speculative? We see quite a lot of LJ and increasing Jamie Mac throughout the week on the Official site. Holden is beginning to feature more with the run of good results. Of course Holden has a role on the training ground with LJ and Jamie Mac (I didn't say he did nothing, rather that I was unsure of his level of influence within the Management/coaching team) What else would they be doing throughout the week? Their appearances on the Official site give us a view of them on which we can base an opinion.

Of course you will have noticed that I made my post, which included my reference to Holden, on the morning before the latest great result against Stoke. Holden was given what might be his most significant interview so far on the Official site on the evening after that game

Out of interest what do think of Jamie Mac? Do you have an opinion on his effect on the squad since he became assistant manager?

 

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12 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Okay. Speculative of course but is it very speculative? We see quite a lot of LJ and increasing Jamie Mac throughout the week on the Official site. Holden is beginning to feature more with the run of good results. Of course Holden has a role on the training ground with LJ and Jamie Mac (I didn't say he did nothing, rather that I was unsure of his level of influence within the Management/coaching team) What else would they be doing throughout the week? Their appearances on the Official site give us a view of them on which we can base an opinion.

Of course you will have noticed that I made my post, which included my reference to Holden, on the morning before the latest great result against Stoke. Holden was given what might be his most significant interview so far on the Official site on the evening after that game

Out of interest what do think of Jamie Mac? Do you have an opinion on his effect on the squad since he became assistant manager?

 

It had nothing to do with the previous result. 

I was just referring to the fact you're speculating on things on the basis of nothing. You no idea the roles LJ, JMac, Holden play behind closed doors. None of us do. 

I think collectively they are doing something right, based on results. 

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On 19/09/2017 at 09:50, southvillekiddy said:

I think we have to appraise the coaching team and not just LJ. For me Jamie Mac has to be the one who has made the difference. MA and LJ chose him (and booted out Pembo, this upset me, especially listening to MA's bullshit afterwards) so they have to be congratulated on that but Jamie Mac has been the inspirational figure with the important Scots gravitas. This has to have impressed a young group of players. Holden remains a shadowy presence still not sure what he brings. But LJ cannot alone be credited for the temporary success.

This seems to be the latest way to slightly detract success from LJ. It’s just as wild and unsubstantiated a guess as last season’s ones about Holden being some sort of curse or Jonah. We only get a tiny snippet of what actually happens at the club so people don’t really know who does what and what impact it has.

The coaching team are only as good as the manager; after all the buck stops with LJ to make these appointments. They’re clearly a good team though which is good to see.

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The buck stops with LJ...but the success at any Club, depends on the infrastructure and other coach's brought in, and their willingness to go with it, understand what's needed, and the most important....TIME GIVEN TO IMPLIMENT IT ALL.

LJ came in with a plan and a style of play he wanted to implement for the long term.

That wasn't going to be successful in this league in it's first season.

You need time to bring in the right players and time to coach those ideas...for them to be understood and ingrained.

We never got absolutely hammered last season, or out played every game.

More often than not, individual errors cost us.

It's those individual errors being less and understanding of what's needed that's made a difference this season.

It's also no coincidence that our foreign imports and done rather better than in previous seasons.

They have had a knowledge and understanding of the type of coaching being given now, from an early age. They fit in straight away...and are able to pass that knowledge on to our British players, who haven't had the 'higher level of technical coaching and understanding that they have had'.

It's a big pot, of many pieces coming together and working as one.

Yes...the buck stops with LJ...but it isn't just his ideas. He impliment's many, but he has the foresight to bring in the personnel able to work with them.

It's a package....all successful managers make sure they are surrounded by the right people for them.

Look at Alex Ferguson and his selected backroom staff as an example.

 

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4 minutes ago, spudski said:

The buck stops with LJ...but the success at any Club, depends on the infrastructure and other coach's brought in, and their willingness to go with it, understand what's needed, and the most important....TIME GIVEN TO IMPLIMENT IT ALL.

LJ came in with a plan and a style of play he wanted to implement for the long term.

That wasn't going to be successful in this league in it's first season.

You need time to bring in the right players and time to coach those ideas...for them to be understood and ingrained.

We never got absolutely hammered last season, or out played every game.

More often than not, individual errors cost us.

It's those individual errors being less and understanding of what's needed that's made a difference this season.

It's also no coincidence that our foreign imports and done rather better than in previous seasons.

They have had a knowledge and understanding of the type of coaching being given now, from an early age. They fit in straight away...and are able to pass that knowledge on to our British players, who haven't had the 'higher level of technical coaching and understanding that they have had'.

It's a big pot, of many pieces coming together and working as one.

Yes...the buck stops with LJ...but it isn't just his ideas. He impliment's many, but he has the foresight to bring in the personnel able to work with them.

It's a package....all successful managers make sure they are surrounded by the right people for them.

Look at Alex Ferguson and his selected backroom staff as an example.

 

Para...para...paragraphs!

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