Lee Johnson dividing opinion on SWFC's Owlstalk

[Tipps69]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

Interesting that Bolton, GJ and 'sports science, coaching, diet and development'....are mentioned in the last couple posts.

Big Sam is a very forward thinking coach, and was one of the first in this country to use technology and 'outside the box' thinking, and new methods of coaching, teaching philosophy.

So many see him as being a dinosaur....they couldn't be further from the truth.

What he had instilled at Bolton was far removed from what we had under GJ. We may have bought older players, but Big Sams were well scouted.

Another forum member BBSB will tell you all about Big Sam.

But ‘Big Sams’ recruitment policy when he got Bolton up was to spend very little on transfer fees & bring in ‘old heads’, ex-internationals who had a proven pedigree to be able to perform at the level required & it offered those players the opportunity to play at a high level before their careers came to an end (Adebola & Byfield in our case).

We have now started fishing in this foreign market & reaping the rewards where as ‘Big Sam’ was fishing in this ‘pond’ 20 years ago or so but Bolton had the advantage of being in The Premier League, we on the other hand were ‘little ol Bristol City’ who had only just managed to make it to the 2nd tier of English football, not exactly an attractive proposition considering.

[Septic Peg]

52 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I think GJ’s platform was built on the blueprint of the Bolton design from when they first made it to The Premier League, sign older players who have played at that level but required very little in the way of an initial outlay in the form of transfer fees just to consolidate at that level, the problem GJ had was that the team got better results than expected & all of a sudden expectations had risen significantly & there was no time to try & build from the bottom up because once we looked like we were becoming promotion candidates by the January & having made the play-off final, expectations had risen & everything had to be concentrated on the first team to try & keep us up there although it was done years before anyone could of possibly expected.

Nail on head.

Whilst that season was incredible, I knew it wouldn't work out, just because we had no time to establish ourselves. We've been a Champ/League 1 yoyo team for years. This is our 3rd consecutive Champ season and I feel we are now starting to be comfy at this level. 

If we can establish ourselves as full time Champ regulars like Ipswich, Wolves etc, we will have the foundations to push onwards and drop the yoyo tag.

[Tipps69]

Exactly this Peg, we had no time for a gradual progression & it was a case of all or nothing & us the supporters got dragged along with it.

Now we are establishing ourselves in this division, we are showing signs of progression & the next step will be to push on for promotion & then we will really see what our intentions are with less of a restriction on what we are allowed to spend & with more money coming into the club from all angles & SL’s vast fortune, I can only see us being in a much better position than some of the clubs that make it up for the first time.

[Grey Fox]

Nice thing is, we have no big expectations this season, most of us would probably be happy with a top half finish, the fans of clubs like Wednesday, Leeds, Villa, Boro' etc demand success, so when results go against them they add to the pressure on the club (did anyone see the clip of the Wed's boss beating up a £20 note in the press conference?). As the season develops more and more of them will have to try and deal with that pressure, and if they do not leaves a little bit of room for a cider chilled dark horse to gallop through?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

But ‘Big Sams’ recruitment policy when he got Bolton up was to spend very little on transfer fees & bring in ‘old heads’, ex-internationals who had a proven pedigree to be able to perform at the level required & it offered those players the opportunity to play at a high level before their careers came to an end (Adebola & Byfield in our case).

We have now started fishing in this foreign market & reaping the rewards where as ‘Big Sam’ was fishing in this ‘pond’ 20 years ago or so but Bolton had the advantage of being in The Premier League, we on the other hand were ‘little ol Bristol City’ who had only just managed to make it to the 2nd tier of English football, not exactly an attractive proposition considering.

Exactly...regardless of what division you're in, Scouting costs next to nothing. Most underpaid 'job' at any club. The majority do it for pin money, expenses and sometimes not even that. Get a bunch of scouts working for you, that you trust in their judgement, and due your due diligence when looking at a player....add that to all the 'technical' stuff.

Making good contacts in football, that have mutual respect for one another, and have like minded ideas as well as being open to other people and suggestions always helps.

Sam made sure he did that....and from what I understand LJ does too.

We had a previous manager, that would only work with a small team of people he liked, was very closed to listening to anyone outside of that, was 'Marmite' by a lot of the football community, and only liked to work with a small band of certain scouts and agents. If you do that, you are going to lessen your percentage of chances in doing well....especially higher up the leagues you go.

 

[Tipps69]

5 minutes ago, Grey Fox said:

Nice thing is, we have no big expectations this season, most of us would probably be happy with a top half finish, the fans of clubs like Wednesday, Leeds, Villa, Boro' etc demand success, so when results go against them they add to the pressure on the club (did anyone see the clip of the Wed's boss beating up a £20 note in the press conference?). As the season develops more and more of them will have to try and deal with that pressure, and if they do not leaves a little bit of room for a cider chilled dark horse to gallop through?

Which the difference that we’ve had from our time in The Championship under GJ & LJ, GJ had relative success when we came up in 2007 & that automatically rose our expectations. This time around SC made a ‘pigs ear’ of things in the first season (for whatever reason) & that then meant that our expectations never got too high, that was until our start of last season where we were in the play-off positions come the end of September & then everybody’s expectations came crashing down but if you look at how far we have progressed both on & off the pitch in just those 3 seasons (2 & a bit technically), we are so much better prepared & even if we were to gain promotion this season, we would be in so much of a better position than if we had gained promotion in 2008.

[Tipps69]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Exactly...regardless of what division you're in, Scouting costs next to nothing. Most underpaid 'job' at any club. The majority do it for pin money, expenses and sometimes not even that. Get a bunch of scouts working for you, that you trust in their judgement, and due your due diligence when looking at a player....add that to all the 'technical' stuff.

Making good contacts in football, that have mutual respect for one another, and have like minded ideas as well as being open to other people and suggestions always helps.

Sam made sure he did that....and from what I understand LJ does too.

We had a previous manager, that would only work with a small team of people he liked, was very closed to listening to anyone outside of that, was 'Marmite' by a lot of the football community, and only liked to work with a small band of certain scouts and agents. If you do that, you are going to lessen your percentage of chances in doing well....especially higher up the leagues you go.

 

I can’t possibly think of who you’re referring too 

[cheshire_red]

3 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Trying to think who that is in Wednesday's case.

Nigel Pearson played for them but has just got a new job. John Sheridan just got sacked at Oldham but the fact he got sacked at Oldham doesn't bode well, Megson tried and failed, Di Canio's stock is low, Waddle has proved he is no manager. Is there actually any former Wednesday player (or Wednesday fan) doing well in management?

Oh Danny Boy

[cheshire_red]

2 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

I think GJ’s platform was built on the blueprint of the Bolton design from when they first made it to The Premier League, sign older players who have played at that level but required very little in the way of an initial outlay in the form of transfer fees just to consolidate at that level, the problem GJ had was that the team got better results than expected & all of a sudden expectations had risen significantly & there was no time to try & build from the bottom up because once we looked like we were becoming promotion candidates by the January & having made the play-off final, expectations had risen & everything had to be concentrated on the first team to try & keep us up there although it was done years before anyone could of possibly expected.

Or we could have bought a striker or two in January

[Kid in the Riot]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

True...However, GJ had an owner that was willing to throw plenty of money at short term success....hoping to get to the Prem and go from there.

GJ must have thought he'd won the lottery in management terms.

It's only until recent years, that we've actually understood that you have to build foundations, put an infrastructure in place, and have the right people in place to run a football club

I suspect all our managers feel the same spud, LJ (who has spent more than all of them put together ) included.

Bit harsh to single out GJ. He actually got us promoted by spending pretty much sod all and his biggest signing of our most successful season in donkeys years was Trundle at £1m. If anything there was a school of thought that in the January transfer window that season we didn't spend enough (only £300k on Adebola) whereas our nearest rivals at the time Stoke City spent a few million and ended up getting promoted automatically. His other 'big money' signing was Maynard who can be considered a success as he scored about 50 goals for us making him one of our most successful strikers of all-time.

GJ certainly preferred 'experience' over 'youth' though and long-term that will not be beneficial to a football club. In the end he just ran out of ideas I think as was demonstrated by the number of loan players he kept bringing in.

[Lordofthebling]

Deja vu... We were saying this exactly last year.

I think the fact that SL literally put almost his whole reputation on the line with LJ, should keep him here for a while yet.  What more could a manager want? 

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I suspect all our managers feel the same spud, LJ (who has spent more than all of them put together ) included.

Bit harsh to single out GJ. He actually got us promoted by spending pretty much sod all and his biggest signing of our most successful season in donkeys years was Trundle at £1m. If anything there was a school of thought that in the January transfer window that season we didn't spend enough (only £300k on Adebola) whereas our nearest rivals at the time Stoke City spent a few million and ended up getting promoted automatically. His other 'big money' signing was Maynard who can be considered a success as he scored about 50 goals for us making him one of our most successful strikers of all-time.

GJ certainly preferred 'experience' over 'youth' though and long-term that will not be beneficial to a football club. In the end he just ran out of ideas I think as was demonstrated by the number of loan players he kept bringing in.

Yeah - I agree about running out of ideas. But I also think he had got into a habit of buying players without having a clear plan of how we intended to use them. The season he went we had at least 6 central midfielders and a massive deficiency in quality and/or cover everywhere else on the pitch...

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I suspect all our managers feel the same spud, LJ (who has spent more than all of them put together ) included.

Bit harsh to single out GJ. He actually got us promoted by spending pretty much sod all and his biggest signing of our most successful season in donkeys years was Trundle at £1m. If anything there was a school of thought that in the January transfer window that season we didn't spend enough (only £300k on Adebola) whereas our nearest rivals at the time Stoke City spent a few million and ended up getting promoted automatically. His other 'big money' signing was Maynard who can be considered a success as he scored about 50 goals for us making him one of our most successful strikers of all-time.

GJ certainly preferred 'experience' over 'youth' though and long-term that will not be beneficial to a football club. In the end he just ran out of ideas I think as was demonstrated by the number of loan players he kept bringing in.

I obviously didn't get my point across very well KitR....I wasn't having a dig at GJ....he did well getting us up, it was the money spent when we were up that was the problem.

SL gave money to be spent with no long term plan...it was 'here you go, knock yourself out with that'....and GJ bought accordingly with a short term mentality of success. As have other managers.

Yes...LJ has spent....but it's not been carte blanche with short term success in mind.

The majority of managers realise they have probably 2 years to work with a Club. Stats prove that. So with that midset, they look after themselves and buy players that will give them what they think will do well in that short term period of tenure. Basically looking after themselves and not the clubs future.

LJ has been given money...but it has been spent according to the plan agreed. He could have gone out and spent on bigger names and with more experience, but by and large he hasn't. He's spent on young hungry players, with talent, that can develop and become better.

When doing that and buying into that philosophy, as a manager, you are undermining yourself more, as you have more of a chance of it not working out. Less experience etc,etc.

So we can say LJ has spent a good amount...but it's been within restrictions of the blueprint and plan for the Club.

It's a completely different scenario to which other managers have had.

[BCFC_Dan]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

True...However, GJ had an owner that was willing to throw plenty of money at short term success....hoping to get to the Prem and go from there.

GJ must have thought he'd won the lottery in management terms.

I'm prepared to be proven wrong on this, but my recollection is that GJ did not throw a lot of money at the team.

He paid a lot for Maynard by our standards, but not really in the grand scheme of things, and that was for a young, up-and-coming player, the kind of signing we'd make now.

He failed to overhaul the spine of the team adequately, falling out and moving on the likes of Basso and Orr, which saw things slowly degrade.

He signed players who weren't really good enough, such as Clarkson and Campbell-Ryce.

BUT. I can't think of any really big earners signed by GJ. For me that phase came after he left. When Coppell was allowed to bring in Stewart, Cisse and Hunt, and somebody signed David James. That was followed up by letting Millen spend a fair bit in a desperate attempt for one of Lansdown's men to be successful.

Appreciate this isn't really the point of the thread, but I do feel GJ gets a lot of the blame for things that actually happened in the years after him. The decline may have begun under him but we weren't really in bad shape when he left.

[Red Army 75]

People will be hanging their bed sheets out again. But this time with Johnson stay on them . Fair play to him he's done really well this season. Certainly got thick skin 

[Jack Dawe]

7 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

People will be hanging their bed sheets out again. But this time with Johnson stay on them . Fair play to him he's done really well this season. Certainly got thick skin 

"Lansdown-get your Johnson signed up for another three years"

[Garland-sweden]

SW lost the derby and then lost Brum away. Shit happens with your team, but why will they sack their manager?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, BCFC_Dan said:

I'm prepared to be proven wrong on this, but my recollection is that GJ did not throw a lot of money at the team.

He paid a lot for Maynard by our standards, but not really in the grand scheme of things, and that was for a young, up-and-coming player, the kind of signing we'd make now.

He failed to overhaul the spine of the team adequately, falling out and moving on the likes of Basso and Orr, which saw things slowly degrade.

He signed players who weren't really good enough, such as Clarkson and Campbell-Ryce.

BUT. I can't think of any really big earners signed by GJ. For me that phase came after he left. When Coppell was allowed to bring in Stewart, Cisse and Hunt, and somebody signed David James. That was followed up by letting Millen spend a fair bit in a desperate attempt for one of Lansdown's men to be successful.

Appreciate this isn't really the point of the thread, but I do feel GJ gets a lot of the blame for things that actually happened in the years after him. The decline may have begun under him but we weren't really in bad shape when he left.

Yes I agree...although he didn't spend hugely...it was money spent for the moment, unlike now. And agree...bigger sums were spent after his tenure.

I tried to make my point better in another post, I'm obviously failing today mate :laugh: ;-)

[Gibbs]

1 hour ago, Garland-sweden said:

SW lost the derby and then lost Brum away. Shit happens with your team, but why will they sack their manager?

Sheff Wed are aiming for automatic promotion. Anything less than play-offs will be seen as a failure - according to what their board has been saying for the last 2 seasons. That's the impression I get from a Sheff Wed fan anyway

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, Gibbs said:

Sheff Wed are aiming for automatic promotion. Anything less than play-offs will be seen as a failure - according to what their board has been saying for the last 2 seasons. That's the impression I get from a Sheff Wed fan anyway

The owners have been quoted as wanting promotion this year, to coincide with their 150th year anniversary.

We've got a bit longer to wait....especially after the last owner decided to take away 3 years of our existence :laugh: ;-)

[RaspberryRed]

6 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don't think any manager is completely loyal  (and nor should they be - they know they'll get sacked if results go against them so why not take opportunities when things go well? ) but the fact we proved the exception to sacking a struggling manager last season - coupled with the fact he feels he has unfinished business at City, has a good relationship with the Chairman and is being supported to impose his own vision on the club - make me think it would take a Hell of a tempting offer for him to go anywhere, and I don't reckon that will be Wednesday.

I also think - although obviously I don't watch their games - Wednesday would be fools to make a change at the moment given their manager has taken them from mid-table to consistent play-off challenges. Losing to Sheffield United will have hurt and they have started slowly but they are within 5 points of the play-offs and things can easily turn around.

Their opponents last night show exactly what can happen when clubs decide the grass is greener on the other side. I'm not sure who the opposite candidate is to replace him - and it might well be Karanka, who also has a tendency towards negative football and play-off misses so I cannot really see what makes him an improvement. 

The grass is always greener on the other side but it's because it rains more 

[Red Skin]

6 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

he also seems to have everything he could ever want here

LJ is a pretty shrewd guy and as others there's alot here to give up.  I think others have mentioned he has invested shrewdly in the property market.  If that's true then even less incentive to chase the money.  Seems to be the sort of guy that wants to build something and where else would afford give the time?

[Garland-sweden]

1 hour ago, Gibbs said:

Sheff Wed are aiming for automatic promotion. Anything less than play-offs will be seen as a failure - according to what their board has been saying for the last 2 seasons. That's the impression I get from a Sheff Wed fan anyway

Ok. But they only lost two games so far and are only seven points up to the leader, Leeds. 36 games left and if SW would be my team, no reason to panic. This leauge is not a walk in the park for no team. If they had been bottom in the table I could understand it. Maybe its stuff in their club we dont know.

[AppyDAZE]

If Lee upped sticks and moved to Sheffield and I was Steve Lansdown I think i would want to murder him tbh.

There's loyalty and there's taking the piss

[Shtanley]

He'd be stupid to leave us for almost anyone outside the prem

[Red Cloud]

I'd be devastated if they nicked Colin! 

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

He'd be stupid to leave us for almost anyone outside the prem

He would and I don't think any Championship club could tempt him.

[Garland-sweden]

Cardiff 23 and SU 21 is top of the table. SW have 13 points.

[The Fat Controller]

I'd be pissed off if he left, especially for a team in the Championship. 

Not because I think he's an amazing manager, but simply for the loyalty he has been shown. He owes this club. He owes Lansdown. 

[JoeAman08]

7 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think he’s a better coach than many give him credit for - he’s also got scope to get even better.

 

I agree, especially about the scope to get better. I mean I think if you look back even 12 months he's gotten much better. I didn't mean it in a negative way just in the scope of him theoretically leaving I'd still be gutted even though he's still got flaws.