Jordan Henderson - what am I missing?

[EnderMB]

First things first, England's problems don't stem from a lack of quality on the field. Henderson might not be a world-class talent, but he does well for Liverpool. Most of the players in the England squad do well for their clubs. England have two key issues that mean the national team will never be successful.

First, the FA have failed to get enough coaches into the game. Southgate is a poor choice for national team manager, but in reality who else is there? There are probably 2-3 other English managers that could take on the job, and bar maybe Big Sam and Redknapp most of the other choices would see it as damaging to their career. I can't see Howe or Clement wanting the job, and Pardew is another person that shouldn't be anywhere near the job. Outside of those names that leaves Dyche, and he'd probably say it was too early for him too. For me, Paul Clement is exactly the sort of coaches we need in the game, and based on media observations of what it's like to train for your coaching badges, it looks like the FA is actively against anyone other than high-profile ex-professionals going into coaching. The FA in general needs a complete overhaul.

Second, outside of Kane and maybe Rashford, our players are nothing more than squad players for Premier League sides. They're a collection of players that can fit into a club system, but aren't good enough to progress outside of that system. They play well for their teams because they have world-class coaches working full-time that are required to embed English players into a system. These players, and by proxy the FA rely on the strength of the Premier League because our players aren't willing to move abroad and play European football in a country without a nandos down the road.

Many of our better players have peaked, like Henderson. Our younger talent gets fewer minutes than many other leading nations, and that's because they'd rather sit on a Premier League bench than play a higher standard of football elsewhere. Until both of these issues are addressed, England will continue to fail as a footballing nation.

[Meh]

2 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

You are not missing anything. 

You've got to give it to the guy, it's like the 'Emperors Clothes' , fooled nearly everyone he's a talented footballer, earning eyewatering amounts of dosh per week . Actually, he's totally crap.  Sums up the great English player myth created by FA coaches. 'Technical player, keeps the ball moving, 100% passing accuracy'. 

No, he's really fooking crap. Just slows the game down and allows the opposition to build their defence in front of him, denying us any space. Totally, utterly crap. Destroys us as an attacking force and kills enjoyment value.

Southgate is blind to the fact the guy is a total waster. For that reason, he should go. 

Bit "sat on the fence" there aren't you?

[Cowshed]

15 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

First, the FA have failed to get enough coaches into the game. Southgate is a poor choice for national team manager, but in reality who else is there? There are probably 2-3 other English managers that could take on the job, and bar maybe Big Sam and Redknapp most of the other choices would see it as damaging to their career. I can't see Howe or Clement wanting the job, and Pardew is another person that shouldn't be anywhere near the job. Outside of those names that leaves Dyche, and he'd probably say it was too early for him too. For me, Paul Clement is exactly the sort of coaches we need in the game, and based on media observations of what it's like to train for your coaching badges, it looks like the FA is actively against anyone other than high-profile ex-professionals going into coaching. The FA in general needs a complete overhaul.

.

Historically it is true that the FA have failed to create a coaching framework in line with European top nations, but the FA do fast track all pros to Eufa licence level if they wish to coach at that level.

The FA does need an overhaul but the role of the EPL in English football has to be included. The FA is subservient to the EPL. The FA's coaching programme is subservient to the EPL elite player programme, and it is the EPL that blocks attempts to overhaul coaching structure  from grass roots up in line with foreign nations.

[Nongazeuse]

In the spirit of objectivity let me think of some of Henderson's good points:

• He is very fit as he spends so much practice running aimlessly in circles
• He looks smart and  never gets his kit muddy as he doesn't tackle
• He encourages younger players by continually waving pointless instructions
• He doesn't need to work on a goal-scoring celebration routine as it will never happen
• He has a large bank balance despite having no discernible football talent

 

[petehinton]

I hate him.

Gangly, thinks he's Roy Keane, runs like he's shit himself, can't tackle, bad in the air, hardly gets any assists/goals...

Think i've made my point  

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The problem with England is the amount of caps being handed out to bang average players is mind boggling.

Englands back 3 and wing backs against Lithuania were not of international standard and neither is Henderson.

Sterling, Ali, Sturridge and Rashford as soon as they put on their England shirts forget that football is a team game.

Yes we had already qualified but could you see Germany adopting such negative and boring attitude against an international team who play in a park? and that is the difference all of our European rivals have big stars but still manage to play like a team and leave their ego's in the dressing room, England do not and have not for far too many years and are far to negative especially when you accept the individual talent available where it counts.

[Jack Dawe]

3 hours ago, reddogkev said:

 

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

You are missing a Liverpool season ticket, mate. And a club Wembley/ England membership (or whatever it's called). If you were to see him live, in person, then you would see what you cannot see by only ever watching him on the telly. Apparently.

[reddogkev]

15 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

You are missing a Liverpool season ticket, mate. And a club Wembley/ England membership (or whatever it's called). If you were to see him live, in person, then you would see what you cannot see by only ever watching him on the telly. Apparently.

Yep, tis true, I would have a better understanding of his level of mediocrity.  I did scrutinise his actions for the last 2 England games and I saw nothing to impress me.  Recall one moment on Thurs when he received the ball in the middle - quite an attacking position - even close enough to have a pop at goal, and he played a bobble of a side pass out to Walker, which then led to nothing. 

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I think henderson is one of those players who always seems to play quite well. Not brilliant. But doesnt let us down like some others do. 

I used to agree but last night he just gave the ball away time and time again with his stupid Hollywood passes.

[Trueredsupporter]

4 hours ago, reddogkev said:

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

He looks decent alongside better players at Liverpool and would alongside a Ozil Mata Eriksen Silva and the rest of the Premier league playmakers who are not English. That the problem England don't have these players. Think Henderson gest the flack for not being as good as Sergio Busquets. A good league player amongst others in a very ordinary national team.

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

You are not missing anything. 

You've got to give it to the guy, it's like the 'Emperors Clothes' , fooled nearly everyone he's a talented footballer, earning eyewatering amounts of dosh per week . Actually, he's totally crap.  Sums up the great English player myth created by FA coaches. 'Technical player, keeps the ball moving, 100% passing accuracy'. 

No, he's really fooking crap. Just slows the game down and allows the opposition to build their defence in front of him, denying us any space. Totally, utterly crap. Destroys us as an attacking force and kills enjoyment value.

Southgate is blind to the fact the guy is a total waster. For that reason, he should go. 

I think that you off his Christmas card list!!

[TV Tom]

Playing Henderson & Dier in the same team in a home game against the mighty Slovenia the other night says it all really.

[TV Tom]

While we have dinosaurs like Southgate and Boothroyd running our teams what hope is there? English managers are not rated good enough to manage our top club teams so why should it be any different for the national team? 

[marmite]

The last 2 England games have been amongst the worst national team performances I have seen for years. Yes I know we had already qualified bar for miracle results, but the performances were dire. Players had the chance to step up to the plate and show what they had to offer, and they offered nothing. Maybe it was tactics but we just looked clueless. I switched on last night when our National Anthem was playing but thought they were showing the Lithuanian team. Faces I did not recognise were winning England caps! That's supposed to be the pinnacle of a players career. I could win a cap today and I only played local league football. I admit to not watching too much Prem footy on the telly but I thought I would at least know the names if not the faces. Winning England caps has become farcical. Going back to the original point , if Jordan Henderson is the answer, what the fork is the question!!! Save your money any fans thinking of going to Russia.

[Judda]

All the players are decent enough. It's the dull tactics by the dull manager and that's all there is to it.

[Nibor]

Henderson's an average midfielder, a good athlete and has a perfect attitude.  He shouldn't be anywhere near the England team.  The reason he is lies in the number of minutes on the pitch that young English players get, something the FA will not fix any time soon for fear of upsetting the big clubs.

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

Heard Southgate say he only had 36 players to choose from, as that was the number that started the last round of Premier league games. Why do the players HAVE to come from the Premier league teams?

[JasonM88]

10 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Heard Southgate say he only had 36 players to choose from, as that was the number that started the last round of Premier league games. Why do the players HAVE to come from the Premier league teams?

Where else would they come from? Very very few English players play abroad. 

[Maltshoveller]

2 hours ago, Judda said:

All the players are decent enough. It's the dull tactics by the dull manager and that's all there is to it.

Sorry cant agree with that

One real top class player plus 10 just above average

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, JasonM88 said:

Where else would they come from? Very very few English players play abroad. 

The same place most 'also rans' get theirs from... the Championship. 

Congrats to Maggers on his qualification and O'Dowda on achieving the Play Offs. See, it can be done, even using our reserves. 

[Swede]

Well for a start until England picks its best players we won't do anything on the world stage.

I can't see what Henderson brings and when you have him AND Dier playing, well, it's just dire.

Jake Livermore would do both of their jobs.

Our midfield should be built around inventive players like Jack Wiltshire.

FA yes man Southgate is not bold enough tactically to drive us onto the next level.

[Tipps69]

2 hours ago, JasonM88 said:

Where else would they come from? Very very few English players play abroad. 

We have a decent crop of youngsters playing U21’s, U19’s, U17’s international football for England but are unable to get into their respective club sides first teams & the majority of them are ever likely to. 

Jadon Sancho, prime example, thought very highly throughout the football world but felt the need to leave Man City for Dortmund because of his likely lack of first team opportunities because of the likelihood of every Premier League club wanting to sign foreign players ahead of giving homegrown talent the opportunity at first team level.

Is there any substance to Tammy playing for Nigeria? Because that would arguably be our most prized asset & next most likely player to make it deciding that he’s more likely to make it playing for another nation!

Someone has to give these kids a real proper opportunity but when the ‘BIG’ clubs are stockpiling the talent & then expecting ridiculous fees for players because of potential rather than proven ability because they rarely get the opportunity at the top level.

And all of this is damaging the team that most fans worry about most, the England full-team.

[Davefevs]

12 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

And here is the point. We don't press enough or contain enough to be either a great attacking or great defensive team, and we don't have wonder players who pull something out of nothing (yet - I actually think we're in a very strong place with youngsters, Rashford, Alli etc).

Henderson will always have to carry the weight of Gerrard on his shoulders with Liverpool and England. He's currently not in good form, but is a good defensive midfielder who, on his day can pick a good pass and keep the game ticking over. 

You know when England play two holding midfielders against Slovenia, and the attackers still have plenty of room, that the problem is with the tactics.

Spot on all 3 paragraphs imho.

11 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

I agree, although I believe that Henderson can be the creative outlet too (as I said, this season he's been poor, but he often gets good assists for Liverpool).

I'm sure I'll end up sounding like a biased Liverpool follower now, but I think England have suffered as much as Liverpool with the loss of Lallana. He does everything - fantastic at pressing and winning back the ball, skilful, master of finding space between midfield and attack, and now scoring goals too. I'll try and redeem myself by saying that Alli, or even Barkley if he applies himself, could probably do this role too.

I heard a rumour that he’s struggled to come back from his heel injury.  

He certainly wasn’t great last night, but for anyone salivating over Winks, have a real look at his performance.  It was ordinary...and fair play to a 21 year old on his debut...but it was no better than anyone else.  There were a few (very) poor performances.  Alli and Rashford, our two brightest hopes were two of those.  How many times did Winks break the lines, in the freedom allowed by the industrious Henderson?  Okay, i’m Being a bit facetious, but in seriousness, Henderson tried to join in several times, Winks never ventured beyond his marker.  I’m not trying to be critical of Winks, but I think too many viewers got sucked into seeing a few sharp passes as being a wonder debut.

The tactics are all wrong, the selections are all wrong.  I enjoyed the Slovakia win, I hated the Slovenia and Lithuania one’s.

The players Southgate picks appear to play no better than the ones not selected / left out.

Is there a case for going for a club mentality, pick 23 players, and form a team / tactic / unit that strengthens through familiarity.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this.

We chop and change.  Again I feel like i’m singling out Winks, But was there nobody else to play CM alongside Henderson who hasn’t been around the squad fairly regularly.  If not, then Southgate isn’t picking the right 23 each time, not\r is he actually working out who can play ‘his system’ and who can’t.

We desperately need to play at a quick tempo, yet want to pass it around for passing’s sake, allowing clever (if not talented) international opponents time to get behind the ball, knowing that we aren’t good enough to create.

Where did Kane’s goal be Slov come from...Walker intercepting high-up

Where did our penalty come from v Lith...a quick interchange 

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us!

Makes me quite sad.

 

[CotswoldRed]

20 hours ago, reddogkev said:

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

Been explaining the same to a few people recently. Liverpool will be forever average with him in the squad. 

[Super]

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Been explaining the same to a few people recently. Liverpool will be forever average with him in the squad. 

Especially as it looks like the best midfielder they have Emre Can is being allowed to leave.

[Cowshed]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Spot on all 3 paragraphs imho.

I heard a rumour that he’s struggled to come back from his heel injury.  

He certainly wasn’t great last night, but for anyone salivating over Winks, have a real look at his performance.  It was ordinary...and fair play to a 21 year old on his debut...but it was no better than anyone else.  There were a few (very) poor performances.  Alli and Rashford, our two brightest hopes were two of those.  How many times did Winks break the lines, in the freedom allowed by the industrious Henderson?  Okay, i’m Being a bit facetious, but in seriousness, Henderson tried to join in several times, Winks never ventured beyond his marker.  I’m not trying to be critical of Winks, but I think too many viewers got sucked into seeing a few sharp passes as being a wonder debut.

The tactics are all wrong, the selections are all wrong.  I enjoyed the Slovakia win, I hated the Slovenia and Lithuania one’s.

The players Southgate picks appear to play no better than the ones not selected / left out.

Is there a case for going for a club mentality, pick 23 players, and form a team / tactic / unit that strengthens through familiarity.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this.

We chop and change.  Again I feel like i’m singling out Winks, But was there nobody else to play CM alongside Henderson who hasn’t been around the squad fairly regularly.  If not, then Southgate isn’t picking the right 23 each time, not\r is he actually working out who can play ‘his system’ and who can’t.

We desperately need to play at a quick tempo, yet want to pass it around for passing’s sake, allowing clever (if not talented) international opponents time to get behind the ball, knowing that we aren’t good enough to create.

Where did Kane’s goal be Slov come from...Walker intercepting high-up

Where did our penalty come from v Lith...a quick interchange 

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us!

Makes me quite sad.

 

The formation played v Slovakia was the same as v Slovenia. Slovakia played more open and the game given perception was more entertaining. The Slovenia game was dull they sat. Lithunainia , loads of of change but England struggled and laboured meh again. Struggling v teams sitting is not new. Slovenia England seven years ago was dull with superior players in England's XI.

It is hard to play higher tempo v teams that stay compact. Nil space nil tempo even for France and Germany with great players. England's one asset is pace and power and its the easiest for the opponents to manage.

Knowing that we aren’t good enough to create ... Yes. Invention. Movement. Incisive passing are not England's traits.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this ... There is merit in. Glenn Hoddle has mentioned England becoming a less offensive team, stop the changes, playing deeper, and hitting teams on the break with the assets England do have - Pace and power. I can only image the gnashing and gnarling of fans who will not want to watch going down that highly conservative route.

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us ... There it is above. It is not now. It has been for sometime. It is pragmatic football.

Mr Southgate is damned no matter what he does.

Makes me quite sad .. I find looking at it philosophically and practically does the opposite. It is interesting v enthralling, its more chess with Southgate looking for pieces with less pieces than his predecessors had. Success will be leaving (early) the World cup without stinking it out again ... Not much to live up to.

[steveybadger]

23 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

Really? Gerrard? Come on. Gerrard was carrying that Liverpool team by himself on occasions. Sure, he had Alonso and Mascherano alongside him for some of those years, but that doesn't diminish his own achievements. 

Surely the fact that England's midfield options are so slim now should make clear how special a player Gerrard was.

I'd say the times he really looked good were when the players you mention (amongst others) covered his weaknesses (positional indiscipline and tendency for the glory pass losing possession, eg) His really top performances were on the right wing at that point as Benitez thought him most effective there. His performances for England reflect the absence of these players.

Not saying he didn't have qualities but to me he was never a player to build a team around, like a Messi / Pirlo.

[Trueredsupporter]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Spot on all 3 paragraphs imho.

I heard a rumour that he’s struggled to come back from his heel injury.  

He certainly wasn’t great last night, but for anyone salivating over Winks, have a real look at his performance.  It was ordinary...and fair play to a 21 year old on his debut...but it was no better than anyone else.  There were a few (very) poor performances.  Alli and Rashford, our two brightest hopes were two of those.  How many times did Winks break the lines, in the freedom allowed by the industrious Henderson?  Okay, i’m Being a bit facetious, but in seriousness, Henderson tried to join in several times, Winks never ventured beyond his marker.  I’m not trying to be critical of Winks, but I think too many viewers got sucked into seeing a few sharp passes as being a wonder debut.

The tactics are all wrong, the selections are all wrong.  I enjoyed the Slovakia win, I hated the Slovenia and Lithuania one’s.

The players Southgate picks appear to play no better than the ones not selected / left out.

Is there a case for going for a club mentality, pick 23 players, and form a team / tactic / unit that strengthens through familiarity.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this.

We chop and change.  Again I feel like i’m singling out Winks, But was there nobody else to play CM alongside Henderson who hasn’t been around the squad fairly regularly.  If not, then Southgate isn’t picking the right 23 each time, not\r is he actually working out who can play ‘his system’ and who can’t.

We desperately need to play at a quick tempo, yet want to pass it around for passing’s sake, allowing clever (if not talented) international opponents time to get behind the ball, knowing that we aren’t good enough to create.

Where did Kane’s goal be Slov come from...Walker intercepting high-up

Where did our penalty come from v Lith...a quick interchange 

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us!

Makes me quite sad.

 

Read the Iceland thread. Its depressing Iceland make more of what they have and have set themselves up to continue doing it.