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Trueredsupporte

England and the world cup

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When did you last think that England winning the world cup was a realistic possibility instead of a fantasy?

2002 and I honestly cant see things changing in the next ten.

Edited by Trueredsupporte
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98 before England lost in St Etienne v Argentina.

The U teams while winning tournaments do not look good enough beyond being physical to change the outlook.

Might even get tougher ..

Edited by Cowshed
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11 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

When did you last think that England winning the world cup was a realistic possibility instead of a fantasy?

2002 and I honestly cant see things changing in the next ten.

Would aqree with the year, Brazil were there for the taking that day.

As usual we stumbled in the group, but put Argentina out on the way. Reckon the heat got to our players and certainly won't get a better chance than playing 10 men in a quarter final

 

As for the future, there is nothing in the current set up that says we are going to excel in Russia. OK we have Kane on fire, but the midfield are what are going to cost us!

Looking further than that, all our age groups are winning tournaments but how many of them will actually make an impact at the top end of the game

We'd need a big slide of luck to finally go our way....

 

Things could be worse, we could be one of the other home nations

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Agreed. 1998 and 2002. 

Was in the Lions for 2006 quarters v Portugal and was highly drunk. 

I still hate Lamps for that day. Missed the first pen and we knew we were screwed from there on in...

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1 hour ago, Septic Peg said:

Agreed. 1998 and 2002. 

Was in the Lions for 2006 quarters v Portugal and was highly drunk. 

I still hate Lamps for that day. Missed the first pen and we knew we were screwed from there on in...

Was that the one where Carragher was made to retake his penalty and missed?

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17 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Was that the one where Carragher was made to retake his penalty and missed?

Yeah. Ran to the ball before the ref whistled.

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Agree with 2002. We should have beaten Brazil in that quarter final. The win vs Argentina was great (I watched it in the Old Fishmarket pub on Baldwin St), especially after the 1998 defeat. It's depressing how England have declined since then.

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20 minutes ago, FramptonRed said:

1982 we had a quality team,i thought that we could of gone all the way then.

 

That's the first World Cup I remember - especially the victory against France when we scored after about 30 seconds and that brilliant game when Italy beat Brazil.

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Looking back at the ones I remember:
2014: no
2010: no
2006: no
2002: outside chance due to the side of the draw we were on
1998: no: not because we were poor, just that we were nowhere near the quality was going to be needed to beat one or more of France, Brazil, Netherlands and Italy
1994: n/a
1990: probably our last great chance to win it
1986: certainly might have had a run to the final, but would not have fancied our chances v West Germany
1982: no. Then again, the best team in the tournament couldn't even win it.
1978: n/a

I think since Italia 90 we have won 3 knock-out games at major finals, with various iterations of Golden Generations, I think that sums up how 2nd rate we truly are when compared to the likes of Brazil, Germany etc.

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24 minutes ago, Offside said:

That's the first World Cup I remember - especially the victory against France when we scored after about 30 seconds and that brilliant game when Italy beat Brazil.

That's the WC when Keegan missed a simple header and managed to hit the post........  forget who against but that miss cost us

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2006. First 11 was full of top players.... they just couldn't play well as a team. 

They were that good that playing as individuals and without playing well they made the quarters (what we would give to progress through a knock out game nowadays!) and that was without both first choice strikers being fully fit.

Best "team" on paper in my lifetime. 

 

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2002 should have been ours. Against Brazil Beckham jumped out of a 50/50 and the next Englishman to touch the ball is Seaman plucking the ball out the net. Then the flooky free kick. Next up was a very beatable Turkey before arguably the worst German side in a long time waiting for us in the final, 10 months on from a thrashing in Munich.

If Ashley Cole and Gerrard had been fit we'd have won that tournament, with or without a left winger 

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

That's the WC when Keegan missed a simple header and managed to hit the post........  forget who against but that miss cost us

Against Spain in the final group game of the 2nd phase: him and Brooking were brought having not played the entire tournament. Saw both our 2nd round games that year, 0-0 v W Germany and then Spain. W Germany went through by virtue of their win over Spain.

Edited by One Team In Keynsham

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1 hour ago, Offside said:

That's the first World Cup I remember - especially the victory against France when we scored after about 30 seconds and that brilliant game when Italy beat Brazil.

I remember we didnt lose a game that world cup either but we had to beat Spain,we battered them but couldnt score.

Keegan came on and missed a sitter.

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59 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That's the WC when Keegan missed a simple header and managed to hit the post........  forget who against but that miss cost us

Spain

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2002. Massive opportunity missed as per usual, Brazil yes they had the 3 R's but I thought we more than matched them elsewhere. 
The other quarter finalists were Germany (Who had a poor side that year), Spain, South Korea, Turkey, USA & Senegal. We'd have beat them all.

Also although it is not the World Cup but Euro 2004 was the last time we ever looked like we could win a Tournament.

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5 minutes ago, BA14 RED said:

2002. Massive opportunity missed as per usual, Brazil yes they had the 3 R's but I thought we more than matched them elsewhere. 
The other quarter finalists were Germany (Who had a poor side that year), Spain, South Korea, Turkey, USA & Senegal. We'd have beat them all.

Also although it is not the World Cup but Euro 2004 was the last time we ever looked like we could win a Tournament.

South Korea were on fire weren't they? Knocked out Spain & Italy if I recall?

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7 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

South Korea were on fire weren't they? Knocked out Spain & Italy if I recall?

They had some very favourable refereeing along the way if I recall.

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4 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

When did you last think that England winning the world cup was a realistic possibility instead of a fantasy?

2002 and I honestly cant see things changing in the next ten.

I wasn't old enough for the 66 World Cup.... still hell bent on playing with my bucket and spade on Weymouth beach apparently.

We had a good squad in Mexico 70.... but I was still too young to take much of it in.

In my lifetime, I have never felt England stood any chance of lifting the World Cup.. apart from Italia 90 (when like the team, I warmed to the tournament as it progressed). And then the Germans turned up. So....in my footballing lifetime.... Bobby Robsons England in 1990

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1990 I agree Pens. I must have a re look at 2002 though.. Lot of people talking about that one. When England go out it all becomes a blur really and what with the corrupt organisation at the top, and i do not doubt for a second it is anywhere near clean, I have lost significant interest since Bobbys boys of 1990.

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4 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

1990 I agree Pens. I must have a re look at 2002 though.. Lot of people talking about that one. When England go out it all becomes a blur really and what with the corrupt organisation at the top, and i do not doubt for a second it is anywhere near clean, I have lost significant interest since Bobbys boys of 1990.

A win in 2002 was certainly possible, I am just not convinced it was realistically so. But, I think since 1990 it was our best chance.

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5 hours ago, phantom said:

As for the future, there is nothing in the current set up that says we are going to excel in Russia. OK we have Kane on fire, but the midfield are what are going to cost us!

No argument about us lacking quality in midfield. However I think England's biggest problem is the defence.

As soon as we play a decent side who attack us the defence tends to fall apart. Some of the goals we concede in tournament games are frankly embarrassing. Once we face a half decent team I am just waiting for them to waltz through our woeful defence.

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74. If it wasn't for that bloody Polish keeper we would have qualified and won the cup:sad26:

Amazing to think it was only a three team group including Wales and we still didn't make the finals.

The blame must be put on all the foreign players in Div 1 at the time.:shifty:

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7 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

When did you last think that England winning the world cup was a realistic possibility instead of a fantasy?

2002 and I honestly cant see things changing in the next ten.

Our record ain't great.....eg we only 'qualified' for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998.....can't ever see us winning a major tournament....there ain't enough English players playing at the top levels around the World...

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2 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

No argument about us lacking quality in midfield. However I think England's biggest problem is the defence.

As soon as we play a decent side who attack us the defence tends to fall apart. Some of the goals we concede in tournament games are frankly embarrassing. Once we face a half decent team I am just waiting for them to waltz through our woeful defence.

So your telling me a squad with Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Beckham, Owen, Terry, Cole, Rooney were not capable? They definitely were capable but shockingly mis managed!

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2014

******* can't help myself.  Ask the same question in a year and I will say 2018 even though I know we don't have a hope...

But what's the point if you don't allow yourself a bit of optimism?

Always believe 

Judda aka the fool

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7 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said:

Euro 2004 was the best chance since 1990. Sol Campbell's disallowed goal still rankles. 

You might have misread the question Mao old chap, I am not sure you can with the World Cup at the Euros. Even FIFA couldn't engineer that one....

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51 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Our record ain't great.....eg we only 'qualified' for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998.....can't ever see us winning a major tournament....there ain't enough English players playing at the top levels around the World...

I've seen Scotland fans claim similar things before and at risk of being ultra pedantic, it's not really true.

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - we qualified by virtue of winning the previous World Cup. 

1982, 1986, 1990, 1998 - we qualified. So I make it six times that we qualified on merit, plus one occasion that we qualified by virtue of being hosts, in the 1962 to 1998 period that you quote. 

The 1970s and 1994 may well have been fallow periods but England have qualified for 9 of the 10 world cups up to and including Russia, which is (perhaps surprisingly) more than France and more than Holland in the same period. Admittedly those two have done better when they did get there, mind!

Edited by North London Red

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8 minutes ago, North London Red said:

I've seen Scotland fans claim similar things before and at risk of being ultra pedantic, it's not really true.

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - we qualified by virtue of winning the previous World Cup. 

1982, 1986, 1990, 1998 - we qualified. So I make it six times that we qualified on merit, plus one occasion that we qualified by virtue of being hosts, in the 1962 to 1998 period that you quote. 

The 1970s and 1994 may well have been fallow periods but England have qualified for 8 of the 9 world cups up to and including Russia, which is (perhaps surprisingly) more than France and more than Holland in the same period. Admittedly those two have done better when they did get there, mind!

Ok, by saying we'd only qualified for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998 my thinking was this....

1966 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as hosts

1970 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as holders 

1974 - we didn't qualify

1978 - we didn't qualify

1982 - we qualified

1986 - we qualified

1990 - we qualified

1994 - we didn't qualify

1998 - we qualified 

That all looks like four qualifications to me....?!

Edited by BS4 on Tour...

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7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Ok, by saying we'd only qualified for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998 my thinking was this....

1966 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as hosts

1970 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as holders 

1974 - we didn't qualify

1978 - we didn't qualify

1982 - we qualified

1986 - we qualified

1990 - we qualified

1994 - we didn't qualify

1998 - we qualified 

That all looks like four qualifications to me....?!

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - are you really saying we didn't qualify?! Up to the late 1990s and excluding the host nation, there were two ways of qualifying - either win the previous World Cup, or go through regional / continental qualifying groups. We qualified on merit for 1970 didn't we?!

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8 minutes ago, North London Red said:

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - are you really saying we didn't qualify?! Up to the late 1990s and excluding the host nation, there were two ways of qualifying - either win the previous World Cup, or go through regional / continental qualifying groups. We qualified on merit for 1970 didn't we?!

You can argue the semantics, but I would say we received an automatic berth as holders for 1970, in line with the tournament rules, and it is stretching it to call it qualification.

I recall the hoopla after beating Hungary in the final game in 1981 since it was generally accepted to be the first time we had qualified for the finals since 1962. Particularly after the horror show we had made of the group with defeats away to Switzerland and Norway. Yes, THAT Norway game. And I think the Switzerland game is referenced in Steaming In as a match where it was horrific in the away end, culminating with London teams' fans scrapping with everyone else.

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17 minutes ago, North London Red said:

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - are you really saying we didn't qualify?! Up to the late 1990s and excluding the host nation, there were two ways of qualifying - either win the previous World Cup, or go through regional / continental qualifying groups. We qualified on merit for 1970 didn't we?!

1970 - we did not go through a qualifying group...we did not play one qualifying game, yet we were granted entry to the finals, therefore we didn't qualify...

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Basically under Sven we should have won or got too a final of a major competition. Was deffo a case of right players wrong manager, fo0k me the quality between 2002 and 2006 was semi final worthy at least.

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5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

1970 - we did not go through a qualifying group...we did not play one qualifying game, yet we were granted entry to the finals, therefore we didn't qualify...

Going round in circles here but I would argue that the 1966 World Cup final was effectively a qualifying game for 1970 given that England and West Germany knew before the game that whoever won would participate in 1970!

Either way it's not four times between 1962 and 1998 given that we also qualified in 1962...

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1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Our record ain't great.....eg we only 'qualified' for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998.....can't ever see us winning a major tournament....there ain't enough English players playing at the top levels around the World...

Bang on!!!!!  Gareth Southgate mentioned this in a semi defence last week. The facts are the facts. We have a Premier League which demands instant success, and if that success comes from abroad, then so be it. There aren't many English players in the Premier Leagu

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1 minute ago, North London Red said:

Going round in circles here but I would argue that the 1966 World Cup final was effectively a qualifying game for 1970 given that England and West Germany knew before the game that whoever won would participate in 1970!

Either way it's not four times between 1962 and 1998 given that we also qualified in 1962...

maxwell_smart__confused.gif

BTW, I know you are joking.

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7 minutes ago, bris red said:

Basically under Sven we should have won or got too a final of a major competition. Was deffo a case of right players wrong manager, fo0k me the quality between 2002 and 2006 was semi final worthy at least.

so who should have managed (with the bonus of hindsight). My recollection was that it was either Sven or some unlucky bloke with an English birth certificate who had just as well as been Mike Bassett

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2 hours ago, stephenkibby. said:

74. If it wasn't for that bloody Polish keeper we would have qualified and won the cup:sad26:

Amazing to think it was only a three team group including Wales and we still didn't make the finals.

The blame must be put on all the foreign players in Div 1 at the time.:shifty:

Can't blame it all on Tomazewski. Gregorz Lato, Jerzy Gorgon and co may have something to say about that game. We dominated a match like no other I've seen before or since. Then Norman missed a tackle...the rest is history. Poland finished 3rd in 74....they weren't a bad side at all http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany1974/teams/team=43962/matches.html

... and if they weren't that bad... how good could we have been. We didn't qualify... and thats the end of the story

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38 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said:

You can argue the semantics, but I would say we received an automatic berth as holders for 1970, in line with the tournament rules, and it is stretching it to call it qualification.

1

Brazil are going to be upset to hear that their record of qualifying for every World Cup has gone! 6 times they have failed to qualify since 1958 - a terrible record. Good job for them they got lucky and won it so many times.

Edited by BCFC Richard
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6 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Can't blame it all on Tomazewski. Gregorz Lato, Jerzy Gorgon and co may have something to say about that game. We dominated a match like no other I've seen before or since. Then Norman missed a tackle...the rest is history. Poland finished 3rd in 74....they weren't a bad side at all http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany1974/teams/team=43962/matches.html

... and if they weren't that bad... how good could we have been. We didn't qualify... and thats the end of the story

To be fair we had some players at the time.

Shilton.Roy Mcfarland Alan Clarke Colin Bell and the great Tony Currie. and not forgetting the most complete player of the time Paul Madeley.

We also had was it the same time? Hudson , Bowles Worthington, Beattie, Todd,  Tony Brown (WBA )

And many more. May not a side to win the world cup but all the top sides had a player you would pay to watch.

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5 hours ago, stephenkibby. said:

To be fair we had some players at the time.

Shilton.Roy Mcfarland Alan Clarke Colin Bell and the great Tony Currie. and not forgetting the most complete player of the time Paul Madeley.

We also had was it the same time? Hudson , Bowles Worthington, Beattie, Todd,  Tony Brown (WBA )

And many more. May not a side to win the world cup but all the top sides had a player you would pay to watch.

We had a fantastic squad. No question. My theme was that people keep referring to a "lucky" Poland side without giving them a scrap of credit. They were so poor that they finished 3rd in 74 and Paul Breitner thought they could well have won the competition. 

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8 hours ago, BA14 RED said:

So your telling me a squad with Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Beckham, Owen, Terry, Cole, Rooney were not capable? They definitely were capable but shockingly mis managed!

No - I was replying to a comment about the current team and our chances looking forward with what we've got now.

I do think we should have done better with the players you mentioned there. At that time there was still some optimism around as we knew we had some good players. A lot of that has evaporated I suspect because we can see the squad is nowhere near that level now.

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