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England and the world cup


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51 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Our record ain't great.....eg we only 'qualified' for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998.....can't ever see us winning a major tournament....there ain't enough English players playing at the top levels around the World...

I've seen Scotland fans claim similar things before and at risk of being ultra pedantic, it's not really true.

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - we qualified by virtue of winning the previous World Cup. 

1982, 1986, 1990, 1998 - we qualified. So I make it six times that we qualified on merit, plus one occasion that we qualified by virtue of being hosts, in the 1962 to 1998 period that you quote. 

The 1970s and 1994 may well have been fallow periods but England have qualified for 9 of the 10 world cups up to and including Russia, which is (perhaps surprisingly) more than France and more than Holland in the same period. Admittedly those two have done better when they did get there, mind!

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8 minutes ago, North London Red said:

I've seen Scotland fans claim similar things before and at risk of being ultra pedantic, it's not really true.

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - we qualified by virtue of winning the previous World Cup. 

1982, 1986, 1990, 1998 - we qualified. So I make it six times that we qualified on merit, plus one occasion that we qualified by virtue of being hosts, in the 1962 to 1998 period that you quote. 

The 1970s and 1994 may well have been fallow periods but England have qualified for 8 of the 9 world cups up to and including Russia, which is (perhaps surprisingly) more than France and more than Holland in the same period. Admittedly those two have done better when they did get there, mind!

Ok, by saying we'd only qualified for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998 my thinking was this....

1966 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as hosts

1970 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as holders 

1974 - we didn't qualify

1978 - we didn't qualify

1982 - we qualified

1986 - we qualified

1990 - we qualified

1994 - we didn't qualify

1998 - we qualified 

That all looks like four qualifications to me....?!

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7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Ok, by saying we'd only qualified for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998 my thinking was this....

1966 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as hosts

1970 - we didn't qualify we were allowed in as holders 

1974 - we didn't qualify

1978 - we didn't qualify

1982 - we qualified

1986 - we qualified

1990 - we qualified

1994 - we didn't qualify

1998 - we qualified 

That all looks like four qualifications to me....?!

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - are you really saying we didn't qualify?! Up to the late 1990s and excluding the host nation, there were two ways of qualifying - either win the previous World Cup, or go through regional / continental qualifying groups. We qualified on merit for 1970 didn't we?!

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8 minutes ago, North London Red said:

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - are you really saying we didn't qualify?! Up to the late 1990s and excluding the host nation, there were two ways of qualifying - either win the previous World Cup, or go through regional / continental qualifying groups. We qualified on merit for 1970 didn't we?!

You can argue the semantics, but I would say we received an automatic berth as holders for 1970, in line with the tournament rules, and it is stretching it to call it qualification.

I recall the hoopla after beating Hungary in the final game in 1981 since it was generally accepted to be the first time we had qualified for the finals since 1962. Particularly after the horror show we had made of the group with defeats away to Switzerland and Norway. Yes, THAT Norway game. And I think the Switzerland game is referenced in Steaming In as a match where it was horrific in the away end, culminating with London teams' fans scrapping with everyone else.

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17 minutes ago, North London Red said:

1962 - we qualified. 

1970 - are you really saying we didn't qualify?! Up to the late 1990s and excluding the host nation, there were two ways of qualifying - either win the previous World Cup, or go through regional / continental qualifying groups. We qualified on merit for 1970 didn't we?!

1970 - we did not go through a qualifying group...we did not play one qualifying game, yet we were granted entry to the finals, therefore we didn't qualify...

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5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

1970 - we did not go through a qualifying group...we did not play one qualifying game, yet we were granted entry to the finals, therefore we didn't qualify...

Going round in circles here but I would argue that the 1966 World Cup final was effectively a qualifying game for 1970 given that England and West Germany knew before the game that whoever won would participate in 1970!

Either way it's not four times between 1962 and 1998 given that we also qualified in 1962...

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1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Our record ain't great.....eg we only 'qualified' for four World Cups from 1962 to 1998.....can't ever see us winning a major tournament....there ain't enough English players playing at the top levels around the World...

Bang on!!!!!  Gareth Southgate mentioned this in a semi defence last week. The facts are the facts. We have a Premier League which demands instant success, and if that success comes from abroad, then so be it. There aren't many English players in the Premier Leagu

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1 minute ago, North London Red said:

Going round in circles here but I would argue that the 1966 World Cup final was effectively a qualifying game for 1970 given that England and West Germany knew before the game that whoever won would participate in 1970!

Either way it's not four times between 1962 and 1998 given that we also qualified in 1962...

maxwell_smart__confused.gif

BTW, I know you are joking.

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7 minutes ago, bris red said:

Basically under Sven we should have won or got too a final of a major competition. Was deffo a case of right players wrong manager, fo0k me the quality between 2002 and 2006 was semi final worthy at least.

so who should have managed (with the bonus of hindsight). My recollection was that it was either Sven or some unlucky bloke with an English birth certificate who had just as well as been Mike Bassett

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2 hours ago, stephenkibby. said:

74. If it wasn't for that bloody Polish keeper we would have qualified and won the cup:sad26:

Amazing to think it was only a three team group including Wales and we still didn't make the finals.

The blame must be put on all the foreign players in Div 1 at the time.:shifty:

Can't blame it all on Tomazewski. Gregorz Lato, Jerzy Gorgon and co may have something to say about that game. We dominated a match like no other I've seen before or since. Then Norman missed a tackle...the rest is history. Poland finished 3rd in 74....they weren't a bad side at all http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany1974/teams/team=43962/matches.html

... and if they weren't that bad... how good could we have been. We didn't qualify... and thats the end of the story

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38 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said:

You can argue the semantics, but I would say we received an automatic berth as holders for 1970, in line with the tournament rules, and it is stretching it to call it qualification.

1

Brazil are going to be upset to hear that their record of qualifying for every World Cup has gone! 6 times they have failed to qualify since 1958 - a terrible record. Good job for them they got lucky and won it so many times.

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6 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Can't blame it all on Tomazewski. Gregorz Lato, Jerzy Gorgon and co may have something to say about that game. We dominated a match like no other I've seen before or since. Then Norman missed a tackle...the rest is history. Poland finished 3rd in 74....they weren't a bad side at all http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany1974/teams/team=43962/matches.html

... and if they weren't that bad... how good could we have been. We didn't qualify... and thats the end of the story

To be fair we had some players at the time.

Shilton.Roy Mcfarland Alan Clarke Colin Bell and the great Tony Currie. and not forgetting the most complete player of the time Paul Madeley.

We also had was it the same time? Hudson , Bowles Worthington, Beattie, Todd,  Tony Brown (WBA )

And many more. May not a side to win the world cup but all the top sides had a player you would pay to watch.

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5 hours ago, stephenkibby. said:

To be fair we had some players at the time.

Shilton.Roy Mcfarland Alan Clarke Colin Bell and the great Tony Currie. and not forgetting the most complete player of the time Paul Madeley.

We also had was it the same time? Hudson , Bowles Worthington, Beattie, Todd,  Tony Brown (WBA )

And many more. May not a side to win the world cup but all the top sides had a player you would pay to watch.

We had a fantastic squad. No question. My theme was that people keep referring to a "lucky" Poland side without giving them a scrap of credit. They were so poor that they finished 3rd in 74 and Paul Breitner thought they could well have won the competition. 

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8 hours ago, BA14 RED said:

So your telling me a squad with Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Beckham, Owen, Terry, Cole, Rooney were not capable? They definitely were capable but shockingly mis managed!

No - I was replying to a comment about the current team and our chances looking forward with what we've got now.

I do think we should have done better with the players you mentioned there. At that time there was still some optimism around as we knew we had some good players. A lot of that has evaporated I suspect because we can see the squad is nowhere near that level now.

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18 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

When did you last think that England winning the world cup was a realistic possibility instead of a fantasy?

2002 and I honestly cant see things changing in the next ten.

Same here, 2002, that game against Brazil, when England could barely get out of their own penalty area.

The laughable 'Golden Generation' hype prior to 2006 and 2010 when apparently England just had to show up to win the cup.

I never expect anything from major tournaments, so never really disappointed.

The bottom line is 'not good enough' whoever is manager

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13 hours ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

I wasn't old enough for the 66 World Cup.... still hell bent on playing with my bucket and spade on Weymouth beach apparently.

We had a good squad in Mexico 70.... but I was still too young to take much of it in.

In my lifetime, I have never felt England stood any chance of lifting the World Cup.. apart from Italia 90 (when like the team, I warmed to the tournament as it progressed). And then the Germans turned up. So....in my footballing lifetime.... Bobby Robsons England in 1990

Was also down at Weymouth then, ( Chessel Beach), listening to the games on the radio in the caravan

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26 minutes ago, Nicki's soulmate said:

Same here, 2002, that game against Brazil, when England could barely get out of their own penalty area.

The laughable 'Golden Generation' hype prior to 2006 and 2010 when apparently England just had to show up to win the cup.

I never expect anything from major tournaments, so never really disappointed.

The bottom line is 'not good enough' whoever is manager

I think post 2000 we had a decent outside chance in 2002 and 2006.

The one that got away for me, albeit not a World Cup, was Euro 2004 when I felt if Rooney had stayed fit we could have won.

From 2010 onwards we just haven’t had anywhere near the quality required. 

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98.

Momentum from 96.

Got past Italy to qualify.

Looking good at Le Tournoi De France ... The team looked the bollocks as well.

Part of the duty free army in France with camp site techno parties and vindaloo and explosive pyro as the soundtrack with the smell of tear gas in the early morning.

IT whatever IT was there in the support.

The realisation the wave had rolled back (for what know seems ever) was after the running battle back to the campsite with the Frenches Arab service firm.

The bulldog sound system and DJ's stopped in respect after twenty eight crazy nights.

Very special place, very special time did later tournaments but never felt IT again.

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1 minute ago, Sixtyseconds said:

98.

Momentum from 96.

Got past Italy to qualify.

Looking good at Le Tournoi De France ... The team looked the bollocks as well.

Part of the duty free army in France with camp site techno parties and vindaloo and explosive pyro as the soundtrack with the smell of tear gas in the early morning.

IT whatever IT was there in the support.

The realisation the wave had rolled back (for what know seems ever) was after the running battle back to the campsite with the Frenches Arab service firm.

The bulldog sound system and DJ's stopped in respect after twenty eight crazy nights.

Very special place, very special time did later tournaments but never felt IT again.

I don't think it was that good a team, we were crap in the group stages. Yes we played well against the Argies but doubt we would have gone much further.

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In 1990, I was absolutely convinced we were going to win it. The dreams of a 7 year old boy.

After getting past Belgium and Cameroon in the way we did, I thought that football was like a movie where the good guys always win right at the end.

I cried for hours after the Germany game. After that, I realised how cruel football could be and never got my hopes up for England again.

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The problem as I see it over recent years is we know we don't have the technical ability to take on the French, Spanish, Germans and Brazilians in a possession game but we have had the players to play a counter attacking game (fairly solid defence with pacy attacks/wide players).

The thing is, qualifying groups are so weak that even if we wanted to practice hitting teams on the break, every game ends up with us having 60-70% possession. We then struggle past the group stage playing the same style (that we aren't particularly comfortable with) against slightly better opposition but as soon as we come up against a half decent team we have to resort to those alien counter attacking tactics whilst they play the game they are used to and we go out.

The only way we will win a cup in my lifetime is if the academies start producing better technically trained players so we can play that possession style better than our foreign counterparts and not have to change our game when we play them.

The "under" sides have recently been having some decent success but whilst our players look better trained technically than before, none make you sit up and go wow, we are still relying too much on physicality which is negated by the time we face the men's national sides of Brazil, Spain etc

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